Advice needed. Am I acting wrong or illegally?

[Shamin]

Hi everyone

I am looking for some advice and guidance on whether I am doing the right or wrong thing. The issue is regarding agreeing fair access to my children with their father.

I have been divorced from my ex husband for 7 years, it was an unhappy mentally abusive relationship which also included some adultery from my ex. I have never regretted leaving him. Together we have a 10 year old daughter and boy of 8 who has Autism.

No court order was needed as the father was active in their lives from the moment I left and I wanted him in their lives as much as possible. The initial enthusiasm of seeing the kids waned as he started dating although as a relationship ended he would become more interested in seeing them again.

In general he saw the children every other weekend, a week in the summer and would see them once during the week. Between relationships we would talk and he would come in when picking up or dropping the kids off. This changed 2 years ago when he abruptly stopped coming to the door,even talking to me and seeing them during the week. So he only saw them every other weekend which I didn’t feel was enough and I hoped he would start seeing them more not less. I soon found out from my daughter he was in a relationship and this partner had moved in. I was soon told he would not being seeing the kids during the holidays because he wanted to take his partner away alone. He had also said this relationship came first in his life and I should not be surprised as we were not co parenting. For the record I am happy he is in a relationship. I too am now in a very loving relationship.

The arrangement was always subject to me agreeing the weekends with him which he could change at a moments notice and if I couldn’t agree with his dates he simply wouldn’t see the kids. This did not happen often but the threat was there so I always had to agree. He also used a lack of formal agreement against me late in 2019 when he refused to see the kids until I took them swimming lessons which he said was an example of me being a bad mum (I get that a lot). He didn’t see them for 5 weeks until I managed to find a club. He initially only wanted to only take our daughter from now on as our son was not engaging with him. I fought this and he gave in.

It was after this incident, and with discussions with my partner I started seeing the vulnerable position I am in and that the agreement didn’t seem fair to me it the children. Things then really changed with the onset of Covid - where from the very beginning my partner said he would not see the children because he was in contact with his sister, a nurse who is high risk, meaning he was also high risk so could not see them. I pointed out that he was allowed to see his kids under protocol rules but not his sister and it wasn’t right he was refusing to see the kids because of his actions which were not allowed. I was accused of being difficult. My partner decided to quit his job (he works as a locus) and move in to help me with the kids during the crisis and it was a god send. My ex partner contacted the kids twice during the first 7 weeks of lockdown by phone.

At this point I decided this wasn’t acceptable and that the pandemic and our agreement was used to relieve himself of his parental duties. Many texts were exchanged over this with much abuse hurled my way. At around week 7 of lockdown I sent a formal letter to him saying that after lockdown our agreement needed to change and made a proposal to him which we would both sign (not legally binding I know) to ensure regular access and increased access as I did feel he should be in their lives more. The proposal was rejected and my partner said he will only see them every other weekend as before as this is all he can afford and that is it.

I then sent a second letter explaining that because we cannot agree to access with the children he will need to apply for mediation and or seek a court order so we can resolve the issue fairly. He refused and said he will see them when the kids are older if I didn’t accept his terms - which I didn’t. I have since received 3 anonymous calls to social devices accusing me of being neglectful to my kids, starving them and that my partner is abusing my son. All disturbing lies. I have also had calls from financial support as they have been informed my partner lives with us - he moved out after lockdown restrictions lifted.

So we are now 6 months on, I have received much abuse and so do not have any contact with my ex unless urgent and he calls the house every week or two - having conversations with my daughter (he never speaks to my son saying he can’t have a conversation with him on the phone). The conversations he does have are full of lies about me and my partner. The kids are fine, infact they have bonded with my new partner and independently call him papa and when I they seem to miss him more than their dad when he isn’t here. I do find that saddening.

Today, I received an abusive email saying that what I’m doing is illegal, I have no right to stop him seeing the kids, I am abusing them and he will go to court to fight for full custody (I’m 99% certain he won’t). The truth is I’m not stopping him from seeing the kids so much as him needing to seek mediation and or court order so that legally agreed access to see them. I do want him in their lives but I’d rather him not be in at all if it means I’m forced to abide by his terms. By going to mediation/court I hoped fairer more regular and consistent terms could be agreed so he sees them more. Yet part of me is increasingly uncomfortable that he hasn’t seen them and that I could be acting illegally by stopping access until he gets a court order which I wouldn’t contest.

If my ex demanded only every other weekend with no holidays as he currently does I would contest it and my thinking was the judge would favour more contact with their father for the benefit of the kids. I hadn’t considered if he refuses more than every other weekend the judge would agree to this.

Your whole approach to this is frankly bizarre. There is no judge in the land who could force someone to have their kids more than they want to. How do you imagine that would work? He doesn’t come to collect them so the police go round and make him?

You make them available, he can have them or not. You must know other people who’ve divorced and have kids?

You insist your ex is a devious, cruel, dishonest bastard who doesn’t care about his kids and makes malicious reports yet you’re hell bent on making your kids spend more time with him. Where’s your instinct to protect them? You’re trying to have it both ways. You’re literally saying he can’t have them at the moment until he agrees to have them much more in the future. As I said, bizarre.

The current situation was primarily to ensure he was legally bound to see them on certain dates rather than where he can change it at a moments notice and or just refuse to take them until I agree to things he wants as he currently can and does

There is absolutely nothing you can do to make that happen. Nothing. A court order legally obliged you to make the kids available. It does NOT oblige him to have them.

You are acting wrongly but not illegally.

The only option would be for me to seek a court order, which may be some expense otherwise if I allowed access he will not have any need to apply for one himself. Just to reiterate, he turned down mediation

It is in your own interests not to have a Court order or a signed mediated agreement especially as you claim he is abusive.

This is because if you fail to make the children available or they decide they don't want to go to see their father at the agreed time and you have a Court Order he can take enforcement action against you. You cannot do it the other way round.

If you have a mediated agreement and you fail to make the children available or they decide they don't want to go to see their father, then he can take you to Court and argue for an Order.

As he has indicated his main priority is his new partner and as you have your pre-Covid voluntary agreement, then it is better to inform him in writing that you are sticking to your pre-Covid agreement as it is in your joint children's best interests.

and as if 2 days ago said he was seeking full custody
In regards to his bullshit behaviour and threats just don't engage with him about them, so for example when you write to him don't mention his custody threat.

Apologies. I wrote a post and edited it. Somehow I managed to post both. I’m unable to edit or delete it so I’ll repost what I intended to post. Lesson learned - use a computer not your phone!

AnnelovesGilbert

First. You seem intent on making assumptions, exaggerations and accusations which isn’t helpful. Perhaps you can stop doing that?

There is nothing bizarre about wanting a court order in place to stop your ex from changing at a whim the dates he had agreed to take them. That is the main issue here although I have said I think he should see his children more - how is that also bizarre? A father seeing their children who live 20 mins away less than 4 days per month at best doesn’t seem right to me - does it to you?

I never called him a bastard or devious although he is certainly those things and more - but I am adult enough to put his abuse and disrespect towards me to the side and concentrate on what is best for the children. Them seeing their dad. I thought not being vindictive was a good thing?

I never once said he doesn’t care about his kids or mistreats then although he hasn’t been the best dad in terms of putting them first or seeing them. Perhaps it is time he started - he is only their father after all and as I am always reminded is as responsible for them and has as much rights as me. He is also the one who insisted we have them (before you make more assumptions - I don’t regret ever having them). He has never been abusive to the kids so what do you mean where’s my instinct to protect them?

I’m literally saying he can’t see them until he seeks a court order to put in place an agreement we both accept rather than me continue to accept his terms. Again - how is that bizarre? Not doing this meant I do accept his terms and continue with what I have dealt with for many years - I’d hoped by making him fight to see his kids he actually would. You are twisting my words and intention.

However as I have already said - I am rethinking things because I thought going to court would result in them deeming that a father should accept more responsibility and have more contact. The court order will still be seeked in order to achieve the main thing I hope for - to have guaranteed dates of access so I can finally start planning my life.

Red rum the horse

So if I had a court order in place and he doesn’t see them on a stipulated day nothing happens to him but if the kids didn’t want to see him I could be taken to court?

If true I am stunned. So this man can literally see his kids as little as he wishes and the court will agree and if wanted to see them more (If no safe guarding issues exist) he also could. Wow.

I always had made the kids available until this Covid debacle which was the final straw. I only wanted to mainly ensure when he has the kids I didn’t have to worry that he suddenly might decide he doesn’t want them leaving me to change my plans as I have done.

Many many thanks

Thé way a court order will work. You have to make the kids available at a certain times and days/dates. If he's an hour late you can then assume it's off and go about your business.

You (as the resident parent) HAVE TO make the children available, he however DOES NOT have to have them. Ever.

From thé âge of 13 the courts would normally accept the children's preferences. But you'd have to go to court if he fights it. Sounds v v v unlikely.

Your only recourse is CMS as he has to pay more if he has the kids less. This is his only motivation for seeing them more if he doesn't actually want to.

This is what everyone has been trying to explain;

1. courts can't make him see his kids more than he wants to, if he says "I only want to see them once a year" no judge will say "you must see them twice a year"

2. even with a court order there is no penalty for a parent who doesn't see their kids, the only way if he ones enforceable is if the parent who has them, keeps them longer than agreed eg by not giving them back - he won't do this as he is avoiding seeing them.

3. he won't fight for them (unless he sees it as a battle for control) but even if he does, it won't be because he actually wants to see them and he'll reduce contact again after he's "won"

4. he won't fight for custody because his new partner doesn't want it

5. even if you get a court order saying eg "he will have them on September 9th-11th" and you book a weekend away, he can just not turn up, fuck over your weekend plans and you lose all your money and there are NO CONSEQUENCES for him

What the others have said is true. However, keep in mind that this is a worst case scenario. As things develop he may want to see them more when they're more independent or he may not want to be involved at all. Things will change either way but his control over the situation will never be as strong as it is right now unless you force him into a legal battle and then don't uphold your side of things (giving him the upper hand legally).

The important thing here is that even if you don't get a court order, you're well within your rights to deny a change of dates. That's not witholding contact. If you say August 22-23 he will have the children and then on August 21 he wants to change it to the next weekend, then you don't have to say yes. (I wouldn't say no just to annoy him, try and make it work how you can but if it genuinely is an issue, don't change everything to accommodate a new weekend)

If he says you have to do x, y and z before he'll have the kids, just don't entertain that. Say you're not giving them swimming lessons right now but he is free to do that during his time with them. Then continue as planned, if he doesn't show up that isn't withholding contact.

Things will calm down eventually, in the meantime you need to just play the game and ensure your kids can see their father and hope that he takes that role seriously. He either will or he won't but either way things will calm down.

Fanning the flames and arguing may feel good and vindicated and every other post on here is filled with stories but at the end of the day this is how long term battles begin and nobody wants to live that life, least of all your children.

I think people might be being a bit harsh and maybe I started that because my first comment was a bit harsh, but you also are a bit defensive and I hope you don't mind me saying, naive, about the process right now. Which is fine. This isn't stuff they teach you about in school and nobody ever plans to be in a family court situation.

I'd be wary of your partner getting involved, even if he's just helping. The truth is it's down to you and your ex, and your child will have more of a say when they're old enough. Outside of that no one else matters. Just be firm where you need to be and compromise when you can, if you know deep down you're being fair then that's all you can do, and your children will know that too.

The only thing you are doing wrong is not blocking his number and changing your email address ASAP. You don’t need to put up with his shit and he is using the kids to control you. If he cares for them then he will bring you to court and you will be informed by letter of that. You don’t need him to have contact with you between time and you don’t need to listen to his shit. You are doing the right thing and he sounds like an awful father and it doesn’t sound like his girlfriend is ever going to make a great step mother, in fact, she trying to get him not to parent at all. Block and have some peace for yourself!👍🌸

As others have said. Stop engaging with his game playing. If your previous arrangement was eow I would use this opportunity with restart of school etc to reset the contact as it was.

I do not compromise about contact if my ex misses a weekend he has to suck it up. He has the kids 4 days a month. If he can't organise himself to see them why should I change my plans?

I am flexible about times and pick up/drop off. He has had no car for some time. So I am the taxi service. Because like you I want the children to spend time with their dad. And I don't want to be petty. But doing like this has shown my ex I won't be pushed around and he doesn't get to dictate the situation/me. He didn't like it at the start because it didn't suit him not to be able to chop and change plans around his social life but has accepted it now.

I would write to him with a proposal back to eow. You will be happy to drop them off but he has to bring them back. It maybe in time he wants to see them more. For the first time in three years my ex asked to take the kids out on their bikes on a week night (30 mins must of been exhausting for him 🙄). But I wouldn't stop him seeing them extra. I am just not having the weekends messed about.

Only answer messages about pick up and drop off times. Ignore everything else. He is trying to control/upset you. Don't answer the phone to him. Tell him you want communication through e mail/text (so you have a paper trail). This has served me well in the past when I can screen shot previous messages when we have agreed something and he has backed tracked or tried to make out I Am being Unreasonable. I am waiting for this to happen next weekend as I said to him he could see the children whenever it suited him. I am on furlough and kids are off school so completely flexible over the six weeks holiday Expect for the bank holiday weekend.

As you now know. The courts will not make him see the children. It might be worth exploring a court order so that contact and travel is agreed. But then this holds you accountable to the children being. Available/going. Not him to have them.

I have waffled on. My x is/was a difficult man. Would always bully me and shout to get his own way. And I would always back down. I hate confrontation. But used several stock answers such as 'that doesn't work for me' and ignoring the bullshit he now pretty much leaves me alone.

Hi all.

Certainly the messages about control are spot on - my ex is very much about this. I am naive and certainly regarding this sort of thing - been pretty sheltered my whole life and despite being 40 still feel like a kid. This is the first time in my life I’ve started resisting my ex and I don’t want to be dictated to by him again. Part of this is confidence my partner has given me and the fact he stands up for me which I’ve never had.

But doing the right thing is the main reason I posted here and this has been so helpful. I realise how little I understood about court orders etc.

Regarding my ex’s new partner. Things did change when he met her but I have no idea what she is like or what she says. I do get the feeling she wouldn’t want the kids around often - for the first time in my life I see (actually hear) my ex run around and pander to her needs. She is only 23 and I’m not surprised she might not want to play mum too often.

My partner initially contacted my ex so he could meet and get comfortable with him and to know the man who spends time with his kids - my ex was rude and told him to get lost. My partner didn’t bite and did stay out of things even when my ex would shout at me on the phone or cancel his time with the kids but my ex involved him with his lies about him. The only thing my partner has said about it, apart from his disbelief, is he won’t let what he did go and that he doesn’t want him getting his own way anymore and to stick to my guns on this.

Having spoken to him now about the advice on here he understands why I’m seriously considering basically stopping this now. We are both much better aware of how this would work not work and we are both really grateful.

I apologise if I seemed defensive or rude myself. Certainly not my intention.

You sound much more clear about what can be achieved. Each family set up is different.

My ex left for ow. I have no wish to meet her or have anything to Do with her. She is kind to the children that is all I need to know. This sets out clearly that he does not get to interfere with my relationships as I have had no recourse in his.

There are families that blend well but both sides have to be able to compromise and be approachable. Your ex and his partner don't side like they are.

Your relationship with your ex is just about the children now. It maybe in time that things become easier all round. But for now I wouldn't be forcing your current partner into the equation.

The only thing you are doing wrong is not blocking his number and changing your email address ASAP.

Do not do this.

If his phone calls, messages and emails are really upsetting you then you need to get another mobile phone with a new number and set up another email address. You give these new details to everyone you know except him. You then remind everyone not to give your new details out to anyone.

Once you have done that only look at your old details once a week e.g. before the children are picked up. If he then leaves abusive emails or voicemail messages you will then only need to deal with them once a week and will have evidence if you wish to take things further.

I suggest you don't unless he threatens you with actual violence as you must avoid him taking you to Court for an Order if you can help it. Even if he is or threatens violence towards you, the Court will give him the right to have contact with his children he just won't be able to have contact with you.

A court order would give fixed contact so even if it is EOW they would/could be set in stone with arrangements included for Easter/Christmas/Mother's Day/Birthdays if included.

As explained he cannot be forced to turn up. He would just miss his weekend and have to wait for the next one.

The court can make a ruling for who does pick up/drop off too.

I suspect he won't bother to take it to court for contact as he's got what he wants - not see the DC and blame you...

OP also don't blame your ex's new partner.

Remember he is likely feeding her lies about you and your children as having little contact with your joint children suits him, as he is trying to keep his much younger partner.

Also sorry if you think myself, AnnelovesGilbert and other posters have been harsh. However we are trying to stop posters like you end up in the Family Court process as posters have had personal and/or professional experiences of it, and it won't get you what you want.

Seems like you've been extremely niave and bordering on pretty stupid to not actually look into how a court order actually works before demanding one.

If he never wants to see them again then he is within his right to do that, whether you think that's morally correct or not.

There are NO consequences if he decides to not see them often or at all.

At this moment in time youre the one refusing access and making life difficult because YOU don't understand how a court order that YOU demanded would work in relation to your family.

@ComputersaysRAVE your points have already been made and the OP now realises she has been naive.

@Shamin

I'm glad things are clearer now.

I hope things work out. Honestly, one of the things that shocked me most about family Court was how all the horrible lies and the stopping of contact, political games basically everything was just so normal to judges, cafcass, solicitors. It is incredible to think that the worst point in my life probably won't even register as noteworthy to these people.

This board in general has dealt with pretty terrible situations and it's a great place to come for advice. Regardless of how this went, don't be afraid to post for advice or even just a handhold when things are bad.

Good luck :)

Given your experience with your ex, I’d be wary of letting your new partner get too involved or be too influential in things to do with your children and your ex. You’re aware you’ve been naive, it might be that this man is helping you get clarity about how controlling your ex has been. But you’re at risk of being in another unhealthy relationship and giving too much control to someone you haven’t been with that long. He really shouldn’t have contacted your ex. He didn’t deserve the untrue accusations, that’s clearly unacceptable. But he may be overstepping and you say “we” a lot when you’re not even living together. I hope he has yours and the kids well-being at heart but don’t swap one overbearing bully for another.

As others have correctly stated, even with a court order in place, there is nothing that can be done to force him to see the kids.

You need to have a rethink around all this op and try and regain some control of the situation - as this is what it all boils down to. You need to find a way not to have to rely on your ex to have the kids.

If he won't see the kids, book a babysitter. Enrol friends/family for (reciprocated) sleepovers. The fact your boyfriend lives quite some distance away is tricky - and I suspect that scuppering your love life might be part of your ex's thinking. If he can't come to you (and after him staying for months in lockdown are your family and community really going to be shocked he visits occasionally?) then you really need to reconsider the sustainability of your relationship.

I agree with PP about offering to pay for mediation. I did this, we all agreed that regular contact was in the best interest of the kids but now we're up to 7 months between visits so again, he didn't step up.

Manage your own expectations, and manage the dc expectations. Maintain the contact, sporadic as it is. It is really shit to be in this situation - I know, I've been there - but you're not doing yourself or the dc any favours by stopping contact.

Just for clarity. Technically you are stopping him from having contact with his children, because you don't like the ad hoc element.

Court can give an order which states he sees them xyz. There's very little that's done though if he doesn't abide by it. Equally, you cannot make another person parent how you seem is appropriate.
Imo, you'd be better off to email stating both the children are available for contact at x time every xth day. If you do not arrive within 20 minutes of this time, then contact is postponed until the next planned contact date.
This way you've offered contact, it's set times etc. He chooses to either take it or not. The onus isn't on you alienating the children from their other parent, which this will end up being spun as.
If he doesn't appear, you all go out and carry on regardless.
Court and mediation won't in effect do more than this. But will be a lot more stressful.

I agree offer him the 1st and 3rd weekend each month (won't clash with Christmas) for him to collect between x and y time and return them between a and b time.

Whether it be Friday to Sunday or Monday or similar. He could collect from and deliver to school...

Court Orders are useful if he might kidnap them (police would return them immediately to you) or if you were stopping contact (they define what days he could pick up the kids) The only other benefit is if his family want to see the kids - you can say he is having the kids on X date so ask him to see them then.

Court doesn't legally make him obliged to do anything. He can still cancel last minute or not turn up and there's no penalty for him. If you don't make the kids available on the specified times you'll be in trouble though

The only benefit for you is that you'll know possibly what days he might turn up on. You still won't be able to organize couple stuff without the possibility that he'll cancel as judges won't "punish" him for not seeing the kids or inconveniencing you. If he asks to see the kids at short notice then you can legitimately point him to the court order and say you're next having the kids on X date and not be punished or forced to feel guilty.

Judges don't care how little he sees the kids as long as that little amount is the amount he wants to see them. A judge can not make a parent see their child so don't expect a judge to comment on missed contact, inconsistency etc

You aren't unreasonable wanting a consistent routine. When I divorced my ex I was very pushy about routine (he thought he could do the last minute random visits that some men think they should be allowed to do) and it helped make things "normal" quickly.