I have had enough

[SistemaAddict]

Two dds. They will not do as they are told. Short of physically manhandling them into their rooms they won't go to bed. They was up after about 2 hours of being told to but refuse to use either warm/hot water or washing up liquid so I have to rewash everything. I've removed all Internet access to see if their attitudes improve. Any kind of gaming and watching nonsense on YouTube has a negative effect. I am the worlds worst mother obviously but I have had enough as their behaviour is negatively impacting their brother's behaviour and turning him into an aggressive badly behaved little boy. He is only 5 and copies whatever they do.
What else can I do? I've tried reward systems, house rules, rotas for doing the dishes, they just refuse and no amount of consequences has any effect. I'm exhausted by them all.

Ok they don't go to 'bed' they go to their rooms. Same difference. Imagine sending a 13 year old to their room, for the rest of the night, at 8pm

I don't think it's too much to ask to have the living room and tv to myself for one evening.

Oh it's just one evening you send them away at 8pm?

My DCs are a bit older and I've now given up on time to myself before bed. How about telling them you've decided now they're older (and it's summer! Combine it with the holidays starting maybe?) that they can go to their rooms at 9, when you do. Invite them to watch your choice of programme with you?

But they sound like they don't much care what you think and that's hard to work against. How's your relationships with them? Do they chat with you? Do you know what's going on in their lives to ask about? If that's not great and you can work on it, you may find they become more helpful.

Louise91417 don’t be a twat. Humiliating them is a terrible idea.
I’m sorry you have chronic health problems op, but my 10 yo is up later than that. You’re going to have to chill about bedtime and your hour alone. You’re giving them too much to fight against. Relax, pick your battles and have limited, clear boundaries - but don’t go to war with them on everything. If you treat them as more grown up they might surprise you and behave that way.

8pm is much too early to expect a 13yo and an11yo to go to bed. If the expectations are unreasonable then you are bound to get defiance tbh. I used to and still do get up early to get an hour to myself once the dc got of an age to not want to go to bed before me.
Couldn't you put the little one to bed and then spend a couple of hours with the older two rebuilding your relationship? You could all watch tv or a film together or listen to music and play a board game.
If you treat them more like the ages they are then they would have more incentive to behave age appropriate.

Why doesn’t DD1 swap bedrooms with your DS so both girls on same floor, that would help cut down noise up and down stairs. Maybe review the bed times, I think it’s quite early for both girls, if DS goes to bed on a different floor and falls asleep before girls go to bed they may not disturb him, both my DC are quite heavy sleepers though and once asleep they can sleep through a fair bit of noise.

Ive tried letting them stay up later and essentially just letting them get on with it. I end up with lights being left on all night and I mean every single light, doors unlocked, grill left on. If I could leave them to it and they didn't disturb ds and did t try to burn down the house things would be different. Dd made pancakes the other week and left it on the gas hob and set fire to it. They are quite happy in their rooms but constantly disturb everyone else. They did share at one point but separating them led to an Improvement
They don't want to watch tv with mr they want to mess about. We are very close to answer pp and we talk about anything and everything.

This sounds frustrating but I'm afraid I agree on the bed time thing. My 2 year old goes to bed at 8pm!

Why get stressed about the washing up, does it really have to be done 'your way' so to speak ? If it's being done, cant you just let them get on with it ?
If it's still a mess afterwards then just put it back on the ' to be washed pile ' or serve their food on dirty plates !!

It just needs to be clean 🤷🏼‍♀️

I think you are being unreasonable and i also think you have to accept you are not going to get an evening and TV to yourself. I have a nearly 13 yr old who in lockdown is going to bed at 10pm and my 15 yr old is going to bed around 11pm ish. They will go earlier when they are back in school in sept. I have accepted that i can't sit and have the TV to myself at the moment. But it wont last and I'm trying to make the most my time with them.
I think you have to pick your battles. You can't be at war with them over everything. And your little one needs to be in bed and the older ones can stay up and learn to be quiet.

Doesnt their dad give you an evening off a week and every other weekend?

They have had to be up for lessons. Dd1 has had online lessons. Any later than 10 falling asleep and she feels ill due to tiredness and isn't able to function.

However I see that I'm expecting too much here for them to do one household chore a day, to respect others people's space and to allow me a little time. They have no other parent and I'm with them 24/7 with no time to myself unless I'm asleep. I'd thought that they were old enough to be able to entertain themselves in their rooms for an hour or two before they go to sleep. I was on the verge of quitting a course a few weeks back as they wouldn't allow me any time to work and I couldn't get it done.

@Bercows

Ive tried letting them stay up later and essentially just letting them get on with it. I end up with lights being left on all night and I mean every single light, doors unlocked, grill left on. If I could leave them to it and they didn't disturb ds and did t try to burn down the house things would be different. Dd made pancakes the other week and left it on the gas hob and set fire to it. They are quite happy in their rooms but constantly disturb everyone else. They did share at one point but separating them led to an Improvement They don't want to watch tv with mr they want to mess about. We are very close to answer pp and we talk about anything and everything.

If you are that close what can't you teach them how to switch things off? What have they been doing all these years that you end up with a 13 yo who can't be trusted alone in her own house?

I've been doing my best to teach them everything but they just don't do it. I've told them, asked them, explained to them. No effect whatsoever except a sorry until they do it again.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well here but they just don't listen at all, don't accept no as an answer and just don't seem to care about the effects their behaviour has on anyone else.

I don't think it's too much to ask to have the living room and tv to myself for one evening.

Sorry, OP. I think it is actually. I agree with PPs that expecting evenings to yourself with teens is unrealistic. If you want time alone then go to your own room. (It's what you're asking them to do, after all). It's quite unusual to send dc this age to bed so early just to get time alone, so it's not surprising they don't cooperate.

As you say, you can't manhandle them in to bed like toddlers so the only thing you can do is treat them like the near grown ups they are and discuss and compromise. Then let the natural consequences unfold.

Ask what time they think they should be going to bed. Reach an agreement - say 10pm and try it out. Make the deal that if they don't get up in time for school or do anything dangerous like cooking then you'll have to change the time to earlier. Let them show you they deserve trust.
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Natural consequences work best at this age. If they leave the lights on then calculate a portion of their pocket money to pay the electricity bill. You use my makeup? You buy me a replacement. You don't wash up? No dinner on your plate until it's clean. etc

Could you stagger the bedtimes? So 5 year old goes first, then your 11 year old, then your 13 year old? I wouldn't have wanted to go up at the same time as a 5 year old. The 13dd might feel a bit more grown up being allowed to stay up after the others. I know it means you won't get your hour of peace but the children might be calmer.

I agree with you about the chores OP, that needs to change and they do more. But if you want more alone time, it's more realistic to have it in your own room. Can you do up your room a bit so it's better suited to this? Get a TV/computer in there, extra cushions, candles, reading lamp, make it your sanctuary.

That would be lovely but they constantly disturb everyone. If I go in my room they come in every 10 minutes. Hugs, to complain about one of the others, telling me something random, asking me to buy them this that and the other. This is the problem, they don't respect any kind of boundaries at all but expect everyone to keep to theirs. They don't seem to respect anything and have little impulse control.

Sit down with them and set out rules and consequences. My ds 13 knows his internet goes off at 930 each evening, he then has half an hour to get himself settled for bed. He has to be up for school for 7am at the minute, but usually it's 6am. If he is tired in the morning then that's his issue, he's learnt that sometimes he needs to go to bed earlier if he's tired.
My dd is 10 and goes to bed by 8 to read until 830 during the week, again she's learnt that if she goes to bed late and is tired the next day that's her issue.
They're both pretty good at self regulating now, plus at the weekend if we do t have to be anywhere they can stay up later and sleep in later.
With regards to taking others belongings, you need st address this quickly, my ds would never take something without asking.

OP I'm sorry but I think your failing on all counts here because some of your requirements are totally unrealistic.

The problem is if you force the idea of an unrealistic bedtime I'm not surprised they aren't complying but importantly it then sets the tone that all your asks are unreasonable any they don't have to listen to any of them.

I think as pp's have said the idea of you sending the kids to bed at 8 so you get TV time isn't fair to them at that age.

At your kids ages as a family we were all in the living room watching TV together and often go to bed at the same time.

You're absolutely not unreasonable in expecting privacy in your room and for it to be off bounds, nor in expecting them to do some chores however.

So I think the key here is to work out what's actually fair then have consequences if they don't stick to the new rules - like loss of pocket money, devices and internet access.

I get that you are likely to be running out of 'spoons' in the evenings but focusing on evening routines may make the day times less demanding.

Your 5 year old will need more structure so focus on their bedtime - exclusive time with you when the older 2 have free time.

Then you are left with 2. Time in a threesome enjoying things in the absence of a 5 year old. Or the 13 year old can spend some time doing their own thing while you spend time with the 11 year old.

Then the 11 year old goes to bed. You spend 30 mins or so with the 13 year old before you both retire to separate rooms to do your own thing. Maybe the 11 year old is reading at this time and it's lights out when you retire.

When it is no longer a battle, you may find that your 13 year old will choose to do their own thing when the 11 year old goes to their room and so you will be free to watch TV or whatever downstairs on your own anyway.

Having battled for years for child free evenings and feeling the liberation of hard won free time, it's actually quite sad when they no longer want to spend time with you.

Freedom within fixed boundaries is the way to go.

Yep, I've done all that. It has no effect at all hence why I'm exhausted and out of ideas.

People seem to be missing the fact that they need 10-12 hours sleep each night and are hell if they don't get that and feel ill especially dd1. They CANNOT self-regulate. I've given them many opportunities to see if they can and they just can't. They would mess around until midnight given half the chance and leave everywhere a mess then refuse point blank to clear it away as they don't see why they should and/or will blame each other.

Are any of you single or rather lone parents with no help whatsoever from anyone trying to homeschool 3 dc whilst shielded? Have any of you not had a single hour to yourself unless you've been asleep or stayed up until late which impacts your health? You are all very quick to criticise but failing to understand what I'm saying and what I've tried, that they need a lot of sleep and they just can't self regulate.

OP I am sympathetic to your situation.

It most be bloody exhausting.

That said I still think you're being unrealistic in sending them to their rooms at 8pm.

If they need their sleep then yes to bedtime at 10. The internet goes off and everyone goes to bed.

As for getting them to self regulate, what worked for my DS was simply letting him suffer. If he read until midnight and was cranky the next day that was his problem. If he acted out because of it then there were consequences.

I'm sorry you're having such a shit time, however I think if you could changes the rules around bedtime whilst enforcing chores you'd hopefully see an overall improvement in behaviour that would make your evenings more relaxing as a family.

Sounds really rough. I'd imagine you're all struggling with the shielding.

What improvement did you see when you split them into their own rooms?

Could your Ds and Dd switch rooms so the girls are on the same floor?

Then just leave them to it. If theres a bathroom on that floor then I would just tell them they're limited to their own floor after 9PM unless theres an emergency. Then issue consequences for breaking that. Make it your only rule.

Serve stuff on dirty plates etc. I'm still doing this with Dh when he doesnt do the dishes properly.....at 31.

It sounds like you have a very close relationship in some ways but they clearly have no respect for you. Perhaps they see you as a friend instead of a parent?

Consequences wise you probably need something that they can't just sit and work out. So make it something they hate. A time in with you where you sit in their space for 20 mins in their room, turn the wifi/tb off with a parental password and keep the remote on you so they cant take it.