What would be fair? Started in relationship thread by mistake.

[Harra]

Dear MNers, am just starting the painful process of splitting with my P. We have a wonderful 10month ds.
I am currently at my mothers as had a recent op so cannot look after ds alone. My xp is a wonderful dad and adores our ds and is very competent and capable of looking after ds.
What is reasonable re xp's access for ds? He would happily have sole custody (obviously that is not an option) I have read and understood (though could be wrong) on similiar threads that overnight stays are not recommended with children under 2. However I would feel uncomfortable not letting him have ds overnight as he had done recently with me being in hospital. I was breastfeeding (formula if I went out), however due to op this has tailed down, am bf when I can though ds is having formula too. I am aiming to go back to work 4 days a week in March.
What can I expect maintance wise? Is it 15% of net earnings (we are not married)? Also my xp has given up work to start a new business. He does however have several properties which TBF are mortgaged to the hilt. So equity wise - rich enough but income wise poor - How would maintanance be calculated? Again I want to be fair.
Hope someone can help. I am reluctant to start with solicitors, mediators at this point as I won't be entitled to legal aid and my xp is a litigation lawyer and I am not expecting an easy time.
Thanks for reading.

csa is measured on income and outgoings As far as I know - I'm not sure who being asset rich affects things
If he is as nice as you say, he should be able to tell you what he can afford, but you often find no such luck - also CSA are useless in the main. So sorting it out yourselves is by far the best bet
Overnight is up to you, I let me xp have ds overnight from 18 mths after I finished feeding him myself, we were good friends, he ws an excellent dad and it gave me break from teh magical non sleeping toddler.

Now have situation where xp wants to pick up ds on Friday, have him for the wend and take him down to the Isle of wight to visit parents so won't be back until Wednesday. Am a bit stunned as still 'token bfing'. But still not up to looking after ds myself (had appendix out 2 weeks ago). Sounds worse than it is as I think he is doing it to relieve me and my family of childcare, see his ds and allow his family to see ds. Trying desperatly to be reasonable but do not think it is right for ds to be away from me for so long as his tender age. Please advise.

sympathies I had appendix out 5 wks ago (i'm 25 wks pregnant)
Personally it's up to you, it is a long time to be away and it would almost certainly end any b/f token or otherwise that you still do.
I think for me it would be a no,just a little bit too young to be taken away for that long esp since he is still feeding off you
REfusing that is not unreasonable in my opinion

I think Friday to Wednesday is too long at this age. Could he not take your ds to his parents on Friday, bringing him back Monday first thing at the latest (that's if you're OK with him being away 3 nights). Think that you are in a position to say "Thanks, but no thanks" while you are still breastfeeding, even if mixed feeding.

Piffle is right, it would really be the end of breastfeeding since you're already mixed feeding. This is the kind of extended stay away that I'd keep for when your ds is older. He's still very young.

Thanks all. He booked the ferry tickets a while ago for this time (we were still together then) and having only just split (been due a long time) access hasn't been arranged as such. Glad you think it is unreasonable. He will say that I could go with him which is not an option. So just need to prepare the conversation. Hope you recovered ok piffle.

it's a very difficult situation for you and you have my empathy I think your initial feelings are the ones that you have to go with - i don't think you're being unreasonable - although your ex might. i do think that your child is too young to be away for so long, particularly if you are feeding ds yourself.

it is important to try to continue the relationship between your ds and son, but please don't do anything that you feel uncomfortable about - put your ds first, then you then your ex.

as regards maintenance, I would expect the 15% but would also visit a lawyer/CAb about the equity in the properties, I would want at least 15% - probably more from any sales to be put into a trust fund in lieu of regular and appropriate maintenance. not sure if that can be done.

it's very difficult because you don't want to jeopardise the relationship between your ds and your ex by being mercenary but that don't put shoes on DS wee feet...

Thanks PPS. Very sound advice. I have a lawyers number from my HV.

Harra hope you are ok. just read this thread.. all i'd say is be careful what precedents you set, because whatever you do now, basically sets the scene for how it will be.. don't be a pushover whether or not he is a lawyer himself! it will be you who has the harder job now and though it is in your son's interests - and all your interests - to maintain good relations all round, don't let him dictate the terms. there is no right and wrong with it, from the sounds of it, he is definitely able to be trusted with overnight access and this will give you a welcome break, but from now on, you are the primary carer, and as such, within reason, you can say what goes. so just put your son first and yourself (and him) second (and third) and you can't go far wrong.

it's really painful.

my dd is nearly 4 (got another one on the way now, but that is another story!), with her dad it has always been a battle (we split up about 2 1/2 years ago) as he just doesn't appreciate how hard it is to BE a single parent who has custody.. he somehow manages to make me feel like i'm being unreasonable because he does care and he does want to be involved.. finally now i am at the stage where i can say 'i'm glad you care, but i'm the one in charge'.. only one of us can say how it's going to be, and after all, if we agreed on everything, we'd probably never have split up in the first place!

hope this helps and hope things go ok for you.

haha just read your post properly persephone, and saw that you said the same thing about putting ds and you first and second! how funny.. hadn't read that when i wrote the same thing.. well we must be right then!!

we are right rainbow girl

thinking about it, i bend over backwards to make sure the ex sees his children. this has (in the past) involved doing a 50 mile round trip on xmas day (he lost his licence due to DUI) to drop the kids at his, then going home to an empty house. i don't want to sound like a martyr here, but I've done things so that my kids can continue to see their dad that don't sit well with me. Harra - you just need to do what you are comfortable with - thaahts the right thing to do - do check with us MNers though if you think you're being daft or unreasonable - thats what we're here for ( sounding board, rather than judgement)

Thanks RGirl and PPs. Rgirl - sounds similisr - we argue all the time - exactly one of the many reasons we are splitting up and again makes me think that I am being unreasonable. Thanks for the reassurance and advice and all the best with your pregnancy.

Update on this situation. No money forthcoming from my xp. He is very angry that we split up - 'I have ruined our son's life etc'. I spoke to the CSA about how much I could get, not much help, the local CAB is packed and they don't answer the phone so I saw a family solicitor yesterday at great expense. Because it is an unusal situation she has advised me to do a claim via the CSA and then that will be a bench mark for her to work on. By the way as some of you may know payments do not get back dated which I didn't know. We have come to an agreement re access though so many people I have spoken to are surprised that I let him see our son as I am getting no money. I do find it so hard though. He has him today which my ds's birthday (I did have him for Christmas). Feel very tearful and emotional.

Hey Harra

i had the major task of trying to get money from my ex through the csa. As i have 3 kids the rate is 25% of wage after tax and NI, but i think with one child it is 15%. I had a small amount backdated but only from when i had originally contacted the csa. If your partner doesn't comply with the csa they will take the money due to you through deductment of earnings so all is not lost! I had to do a bit of investigating to find out where my ex was working, as he really didn't want to pay any cs, so hid from everyone where he was working. The csa can do a search on where they work but this takes 6 weeks! hope this helps x

ps - i'm pretty sure there's a link on the csa website that you can use to work out how much u should be paid x

Thanks for replying KathCM. My xp has given up work and is starting his website business so he doesn't have an income at the mo. However he has well over £1 million pounds in property (6 plus properties), all mortgaged etc. That is why it is so difficult to assess. However my solicitor says there is a clause in 'the childrens act' that the court can use in cases like this where he has to give me a lump sum ie £50k which I put torwards a property for 18 years (ie when ds is old enough) - hence reducing my mortgage, and then xp gets the money back plus its apprecitation. Sounds very complicated, but at least a little light at the end of the tunnel. Glad you eventually got some money.

Blimey sounds very complicated!!! Would that lump sum be in addition to monthly payments? My ex has nothing like that so makes it pretty straight forward for me i think!!! Yeah definately light at the end of the tunnel there, i really hope it all goes well for you! x

Harra, hope you manage to work things out, second what everyone's said about ds first and then you (I'd say forget about ex-p except in as far as it affects your ds).

if he gets nasty and tries to hide his money, don't forget he has to tell Revenue and Customs where it is... he might try to put CSA off the scent through not being an employee but he can't hide from the Revenue. He should be filling in tax returns if he's making capital gains from property (and will have to in future years now he's starting his own business).

Thanks edam, yes he will be know to the revenue re his tax returns and being a lawyer himself, he can't aford to fiddle too much, however he will do the old trick of remortgaging to the hilt, producing equity and then buy another property - all 'business costs' of course. I think you are right too re his feelings, he has been very verbally abusive recently - hence why I am a bit emotional at present. I have always tried to put Ds first and he does have a great relationship with his dad. So now it is formal conversation only re ds and any verbal abuse, I don't speak to him.
Not sure about a monthly payments in addition to a lump sum KathCM. My solicitor has advised me to let the dust settle for a month or so (the CSA reckon they'll be about 6 weeks). XP may have even calmed down a bit by then and we could try mediation (a lot less expensive).
Got to go now - will be on in the morning. Thanks for reading.x

So annoyed. Have made a mediation appointment for myself and told xp and that they would contact him to make one for him and then hopefully one together. The initial appointment costs nothing (very nice mediation people). Xp says 'why do we want to do that - there is no dispute?'. He has paid me no money since we split in December. I feel I have been very fair with access - he has ds 5 out of 14 nights. I am so angry. Phoned the CSA to see how the application is going - to be fair they said it would take 6 weeks (now 3 1/2 weeks) - they haven't contacted him yet and back payments only start once they contact him. I know he is just playing the game as he knows how they work and is just desperate to see that I don't get any money.

just a quickie Harra - the CSA will take into account the nights your ds stays with dh and he will have to pay less maintenance I don't know the exact rules but it's something to be aware of

Please try and get him to go to mediation so you can bring up the money thing hopefully without it turning into a slanging match.
It is good that he has such a close relationship with your ds and to be honest I wouldn't do too much to jepordise this, although I would push for a little money.
Does he buy things for DS, clothing, nappies etc?

Hi Hoolagirl
Still absolutely livid with him . He has just picked ds up. I asked him if he had made a mediation appointment (they had sent him all the stuff) - he said 'we don't have a dispute' (again). I think he is really trying to push me. I am so on the verge of stopping access - then there will be a dispute!!!!! He hasn't given me any money at all. He pays for ds when he has him (ie doesn't ask me for nappies etc) but I buy everything at my end. He has bought ds a pair of shoes and clothes which he wears (ie he hasn't given me a bag of clothes). I said about the money and he said 'lets see what the CSA say'. I know he is just stalling for time and I feel I am being so reasonable and it is getting me nowhere.
Know what you mean re number of nights less money zookeeper - just trying to aim for an amicable solution at present.
Thanks for reading - sorry about the rant.

If you can, avoid going to Court over contact. My dh had to and it was really unpleasant and stresful for all involved, and it went on for 2 years. I don't really know what to suggest to you, but I would say don't stop contact. You've said yourself he's a good Dad and they have a great relationship, and if you stop him seeing your ds you'll become the bad guy and things will get nasty.

I'm not unsympathetic to how you must be feeling though. Are you managing financially or is this leaving you struggling? And if he thinks there's no dispute what are his plans about paying you maintenance and how does he think you're going to manage while the CSA get their act together or things are thrashed out with the solicitors?

Hi Surfermum
Am very fortunate and back living with my mum for the mo who is being very supportive financially and emotionally. His plans for paying me maintainance are to pay me nothing. He has agreed to pay what he legally should and actually suggested I contact the CSA. However he used to advise clients on debts so I'm sure he has done it as he knows what he can get away with. I have seen a solicitor but costs will get very high if we do go to court. As it is CSA have contacted him and he needs to fill in a financial form and they will chase him next week if they haven't heard from him. So currently hasn't paid me a penny. Very useful to hear your experience. Sorry you had such a hard time. I know that xp will be very diffucult if I do stop access but then he does keep pushing me. Feel I am getting nowhere with him. Am back at work in June and really want it sorted out by then. He has offered to look after ds or pay for childcare when I go back to work - however I am reluctant to increase access as he may try and go for full custody.

I almost get the feeling that he's trying to goad you into putting a foot wrong. If that's the case don't give him the pleasure! The Courts do view the two matters of contact and finances separately, so it doesn't follow that if someone isn't paying for their child they won't get the see them.

At the moment it does sound like he's covered his bases and he isn't saying he's not going to pay, he's stalling by going through the CSA. The thing is, he could still be giving you money - my dh started paying his x a weekly amount as soon as he left (she ended the relationship to be with someone else). The CSA came into the equation later when she claimed benefits. She even told them that he hadn't paid anything . Thank goodness he had paid by standing order and had proof.

It is really early days though, Harra, and I think the advice to let the dust settle is wise. My dh's situation was totally different to yours - he was stopped from seeing his dd because she wanted new bloke to be Dad instead, she just didn't bank on dh not walking away and putting up a fight to make sure he continued to see his dd.

As far as I can see, going to Court - although it was his only option - only served to drive a wedge further between them and they polarised even more. It was only once the Court Order was in place that things settled a bit, but it was still really bad between them for ages. She thought he'd going to Court to spite her (um, no he wanted to see his daughter) and held it against him for ages. It's only now, 8 years later, that things have started to improve and dh can collect dsd and go in for a cuppa.