Need Hand Holding - have stood up to ex and it's all kicking off

[SidelinedMum]

I've posted before about the fact that I have been far too passive in relation to my exH dominance of DD's (she's 11) care/arrangements, and that at times DD has suffered because I've not been prepared to stand up to him. DD has been 50:50 for the last three years - one week with each of us - but I have frequently agreed to changes and additional time with him to accommodate things he has planned, which of course, have not been reciprocated.

DD is due to spend next week with her Dad, and she told me a couple of days ago that he has texted her and changed the place she was to go (I will be dropping her) because he is moving house that day. He's not mentioned anything to me directly about the fact that he's bought a house or is planning to move but she's been wound up and stressed about it for months (the hormonal pre-teen sobbing, life-is-over kind of stressed). When I asked him about it months ago when DD first mentioned it, he told me that it wasn't true and they weren't moving, just looking at options, and if they did buy anything he's tell me - but he hasn't.

via DD, I found out that Ex bought renovation project back in May, and DD has been spending a lot of time there in the last few months (which she has hated as it's an empty shell and there is nothing to do) while her Dad does it up.

While DD has been here for the last two weeks, ex has boxed up all her things at the old house which will be waiting for her at the new one when she arrives, and he expects her to unpack her boxes while he and a friend with a van go backwards and forwards moving all the furniture etc. He has vaguely said that there will be other "adults" to supervise her doing this - I'm assuming he means DGP's, DSmum and various other extended family, but I've no idea, really.

Having talked it through with DD, I sent ex an email, saying that DD would be better off here for a few hours until the chaos of furniture moving was over, and that I'd drop her off to his new address later in the day. It works out that she would arrive with him 8 hours later than we originally agreed back in April.

He's really pissed off and has gone loopy - threatening to turn up and collect her for his time, ranting about how upset and disappointed he is with me (again), and telling me that he has frequently had concerns about my plans when DD has been in my care but that he has not acted on them and how dare I change the arrangements that have been in place for months. He has made no acknowledgement of the fact that when we put those plans in place neither DD or I knew about the move, and it might have been a good idea to change the plans to accommodate DD's needs once he knew when he was going to be moving in.

I feel really strongly about this - he has done nothing to support her through this, which is only two weeks before she starts a new school, and seems totally oblivious to her feelings - saying that 1000's of children cope and many enjoy the experience every year.

What has surprised me is how extreme his reaction is over the few hours DD will be with me, and how wobbly I am about putting my foot down - it highlights just how passive I have been for so long that I'm worried about "withholding" a few hours from him when there is no benefit to DD being at his house, and she won't even be with him.

I bit my tongue earlier in the summer holidays when he took DD to his DParents's house 100 miles away to spend the week because he couldn't get the week off work - she sees them several times a month and has been abroad with them for two weeks this year so it wasn't as if it was a special holiday for her or anything, just his convenience. If he'd asked, she could have spent the days here with me while he was at work, so she had time with him in the evenings/overnight.

Now he's demanding that she leaves my house on his moving day as early as possible even though he's not around to spend the time with her. It all seems to indicate that he cares more about reducing her time with me than actually what is best for her.

Has your dd said anything to him about how she feels? At 11 she should have her feelings taken into account when arrangements are made. He sounds like a massive arse, can you speak to his parents to get your point across?

Without knowing or commenting on his previous behaviour and actions, on this one dmsingle occasions I don't think he is being unreasonable. She is elevn years old, not a baby. Surely the "fuss" of moving isn't going to be that difficult to cope with. Moving is often exciting and a big deal for some people, perhaps he wants to share that day with her and involve her in rearranging the new house and allow her to rearrange her new room.

I don't think it's right for you to tell him he needs to pick her up later. You could have offered, but to be honest I wouldn't have een done that if he has formerly got annoyed and expressed that he feels you are trying to cut short "his" time.

Also, the over incident you mentioned where your DD was sent to her DGP's for a week instead of keavingher with you each day whilst he worked. I see nothing wrong with that either. Her visits to his family obviously have to happen in the 50% of the time that she is with him. If he is working then maybe DGP's asked to have DD for a week. They probably never usually get the opportunity and it may have been very enjoyable for all. I don't think he did anything wrong.

DD is very aware of his feelings; and says that she doesn't want to "upset him" - she said that she can tell when he is upset because his face changes and he takes on a particular tone of voice.

She has got more assertive recently - since I stopped being quite so passive and agreeing to everything ex demanded, I have involved her a bit more in decision making, and on one or two occasions she has told him how she feels. When she told me about one conversation they had had, she got tearful, remembering how he had demanded she tell him "why" she wanted me involved in something that he normally does with her, and not accepting her reply.

No chance of talking to his parents I'm afraid - they have taught him everything he knows. I would have better luck talking to DD's stepmum, who seems more aware of DD's needs - but ex refuses to allow me to contact her direct so unless she makes contact with me, I have no way of talking to her

Ok, Im not saying he isn't an arse, just want to ge that stright first...

But... You emailed him saying DD would be better off with you til later that day an that you would drop her off at his new address later that day.

I can totally understand why that has annoyed him if Im honest. You didn't suggest perhaps if he wanted to he could take DD later in the day. You have sort of told him you think he's made a bad parenting choice involving her in the moving day, or that the choice of "adults" who will be sound to supervise her isn't adequate. Also, maybe he doesn't want you at his brand new home te day he moves in, a big day for him and DD's stepmum, perhaps it's make him feel really uncomfortable, maybe he wants an easy day without the chance of an argument.

Kids get bored, you can't really critsise him for things like DD spending time at the house whilst he was renovating it cause there was nothing for her to do there.

Like I said, not saying he isn't almost always an unreasonable annoying arse, but I don't think he has done mug wrong this time.

slow I appreciate that "he" might want to share the moving experience with her, and "he" might want that time with her - but it's not about "him" is it?

I don't want to appear defensive to other pov, but there is some back history here that may be relevant to your comments - don't mean to drip-feed, either, sorry!

DD needed counselling and medical care for panic attacks due to her emotional response to the way in which exH left the family home when we separated (he ransacked it, removing the majority of furniture and household items for his new address, which is the scene DD returned to after school one evening).
I made it clear to ex very early on that her experience was not that of a "typical child" in relation to moving house, and that she had needed professional support to help her cope with my subsequent move out of the former family home. He is fully aware of those issues, but his response was to deny that they were moving.

I didn't expect him to pick her up at all, btw - the origional arrangement was that I drop her off (at his old address) in the morning, and as he had arranged with DD that the place she should go was changed, I confirmed it with him, saying I'd drop her off later.

As for the time with her DGP's - she spends nearly as much time with them as she does her Dad; they are at one or others houses every weekend (despite the distance), holiday together etc, so she has had plenty of opportunity to spend time with them - it wasn't a one-off special week, and I do think that with everything that is going on in her life at the moment, it would have been better for her to have her parents around, rather than be so far away from them.

Sorry x-post!

maybe he doesn't want you at his brand new home te day he moves in, a big day for him and DD's stepmum, perhaps it's make him feel really uncomfortable, maybe he wants an easy day without the chance of an argument.

I agree entirely with this - so why arrange with DD for me to drop her off at his new address earlier in the day, when it is more likely to be stressful and chaotic?

(and yes, he is an arse!)

I remember the backstory.

I think you're right and I can understand why your DD doesn't want to be there earlier in the day.

What an arse and good on you for taking a stand.

If I was you I would be annoyed at the fact that he agreed to let you know about any house moving, and then didn't. If he had said that he was moving house, there would have been a chance to make arrangements re moving.

Actually, the other thing is that even if he does have reason to be pissed off with me - is he really putting DD first by his reaction?

He has the choice as to whether to turn up on the doorstep and put DD in that position or accept that I'm being a bi*ch and let it go.

I've lost count of the number of times he has blindsided me and told me about changes to arrangements once DD is in his care - I could have turned up at the school gate, or on his doorstep and demanded that the origional plans were adhered to, but that wouldn't be best for DD, so I didn't.

This is one thing I am not prepared to let slide (I appreciate that not everyone feels the same way about the issue) and he can either accept it, or make a scene, and he's choosing the latter.

I think you've got two parents who think they're both right, both think they're doing their best and both want an equal role in bringing up their child.

And your daughter's in the middle. Something has to give.

Change I agree and have often considered the alternatives.

Ex refuses to consider anything other than 50:50 shared care - even though I am prepared to be an EOW parent if that's what is best for DD.

He is adamant that the current arrangement is best for DD and I'm putting my own needs first if I suggest changing it.

I'm a father, we do shared-care but contact is very flexible.

My daughter was supposed to be with me this week, she had an offer to go away with relatives for the week and has gone.

But I'm pretty sure my ex still calls me an arse now and again.

Doing what's in your DD's best interests isn't always the same as doing what she wants. It seems that your ex ha sinvolved her in the move from the point that it became definate and now wishes to continue to involve her on move day itself rather than have her turn up after the move is complete.

I honestly feel that involving your DD in the move would be in her best interests.

whiter I realise not everyone agrees with my pov on this issue - the point of my thread wasn't to seek validation or otherwise about that.

This is the first time I have stood up for what I consider to be right for DD - for the last three years, I've bitten my tongue, suppressed my own opinions, picked up the pieces when things haven't worked out for DD. I have avoided creating situations in which DD sees her Dad and I disagreeing, walked away when things have gone wrong on the rare occasions we have been together to avoid a scene - even if that has led to upset/unhappiness for her. Looking back, I don't feel that I have done my best for her

Now, I am doing what i think is right - and it is had led to an extreme reaction from my ex. He plans to stand in front of her and ask her whether she wants to stay with me or leave with him.

DD has not said that she doesn't want to go to her Dads while they are moving. She has said that she knows that he will upset if she doesn't go. It is my decision to drop her off later, based on what I consider is best for her.

I keep coming back to the stark choice - exH wants "to be in charge" (his words) for 50% of the time, so should I let him get on with it, no matter how that impacts on DD?

Is it my job to go into bat for her and support her if he pressures and bullies her, but puts up with because she is worried about the consequences on him if she doesn't? Should I tell her that there is nothing I can do when she sobs to me that she doesn't like it when her Dad interrogates her about her preference to do something with me rather than him?

If she is not at risk, or in danger, should I leave him to it, even though she is unhappy, without intervening?

As time goes on, DD's relationship with her Dad may well deteriorate further; is it my place to try and stop that happening? In years to come, will I be able to say to DD "I did everything I could" if I stand by now and watch it happen without trying?

Well the fact that she has has previosly had a very traumatic experience involving moving obviously makes things a but different. Still, it's likely she will experience moving house at some point during her life so perhaps he wants to make her involved so she can see it can be a fun and exciting experience!

Still. He does sound like an arse from other things you've said. :)

Again, I agree! Giving her responsibility for packing her things, support her to see the process through are all things I would have encouraged.

I know she's furious and embarrassed that he's packed all her things for her while she was here - i don't think that's going to help much

I would say choose your battles & sorry, this one seems to be over something & nothing. But what's done is done. And no, it's not your hob to intervene on your dds behalf, but at 11 you can help her think of some ways of phrasing concerns she has for HER to say to her dad. My dd2 does this with me if she is nervouse about asking an adult something.

So what's he gonna do?

You've put your foot down. Your dd is no longer a little child, she's getting to be a young person in her own rights and if she doesn't want to spend time in a new house unpacking her belongings whilst he deals with the usual chaos of a house move then that is her prerogative.

As you said, it's not about a battle between you both over who has more control anymore, it's about what your dd wants and she doesn't want to go. Surely that is all there is to it?

Seriously, so what if he turns up demanding that she go with him? She's not 5 anymore, she's 11. He can't just cart her off.

Tell him, very firmly, that she does not want to be there whilst all that is going on, that she will be there at the time you have suggested instead and that if he turns up outside your house making a scene you will simply call the police. Also remind him that if he doesn't start listening to what his daughter wants, she won't want to spend that time with him.

She's not a bloody pet dog to be handed around. She's a person with thoughts of her own. So stand firm and tell him to get stuffed. There is bugger all he can do about it.

I remember your previous posts and I think I posted on one of your threads.

I suggest that the other posters above have a look at your other posts as it is clear to me that he doesnt have your dd's best interest at heart in any of his actions.

The only thing he seems to be bothered about is having exactly his 50% (or more) of her time. Your dd is clearly upset and distressed about the move, he would prefer her to spend her time in a house with other adults (not him as he is moving) rather than spend some additional time with you.

I think I suggested previoulsy that you and / or your dd should consider seeing a counsellor about the role he is assuming in her life and the control he wants to exert. Alternatively you could go to a solicitor and Im sure at her age - coming up to 12, her views will be taken into account.

Who would want to spend time with anyone who doesnt care about their feelings- soon she will vote with her feet and neither you nor he will be able to force her, so if you could get him to acknowledge her feelings it would be better in the long run for their relationship.

And if the daughter says well i'll live with dad full-time?

That'll be ok?

no, it's not your job to intervene on your dds behalf

Oh gawd - I thought someone was going to say that

I'm the first one to leave her to stand on her own two feet and deal with difficult situations with friends and even teachers, and teach her strategies to deal with it - but when it comes to her sobbing about how her Dad is treating her, I find it hard to maintain the same detachment

I'm not sure I'll cope seeing her in that state as she gets older, when he insists that he takes her to a well-woman appointment, or has bought her clothes for her. I will do my best to teach her to stand up for herself to him - but it is totally different set of skills, isn't it?

Disagreeing with a parent you love, who will openly be hurt and upset if you disagree, is very different from putting behind you unfair treatment by a teacher or telling the school bully to get lost

He is, and remains, a controlling bully. If she doesn't want to go earlier in the day, she doesn't have to go.
Stand firm - he may eventually get the message that he's not the boss.

And if the daughter says well i'll live with dad full-time?

That'll be ok?

As I said below change I have suggested to ex that we review the shared care arrangement, and if DD displays a strong preference to living full-time with her Dad, and he could fulfil that responsibility, then yes, I would accept it. I might not like it, but I recognise that a lot of the conflict that DD is currently caught up in would disappear if one parent took primary responsibility for her, and if it was him, then so be it.

At the moment, he is relying on his partner, parents and other friends to fulfil the 50% he currently has rather than allow DD to spend additional time with me.

He refuses to consider anything else, though. Just mentioning the idea of changes to the current arrangement leads to him accusing me of putting my bitterness and hatred of him before DD.
As far as he is concerned, we are each in charge of DD's life for 50% of the time, and in that time, the other parent doesn't have any say in what happens.

Changling - have you read any of the OP's posts? Have you read about how her dd feels? Or are you just trying to be clever?

It's clear just from this thread that the dd has felt intimidated by her father at times and afraid to stand up to him. So I don't think there is any chance of her wanting to live with him full time. Rather, I reckon the older she gets the more likely it is that she'll want to spend more time with her mum and less time with this intimidating bully.

As a parent you have to support your dd's decisions and if the OP's dd has already said that she doesn't want to go, why are so many of you keen to make sure that she DOES go? Would you really force an apprehensive 11yo to do something she clearly does not want to do?

The OP's dd has been in this situation before and the OP has felt unable to object. But now the dd is older and the OP is stronger, she is finally supporting her daughter and not giving way to this man's threats.

Most parents compromise and most act with their kids best interests at heart. How is he acting in his dd's best interests by threatening her mother? It's not as if the OP is saying that he can't have any contact with her for that week, she's just compromising on a few hours. So those who are siding with him, do you reckon that his reaction is a reasonable one? Do you think that the OP should force her daughter to go against her wishes? Do you think she should back down once again to her exH's threats and demands?

Well done OP. For what it's worth, I don't think you needed to post on here. I think you made the right decision so just go with it, you don't need our approval.