ExP says if he pays maintenance he will not be able to see kids as much

[LonaMisa]

Hi, the ExP currently sees the kids approx once a fortnight. He lives 30 miles away (he moved) I pay for the kids to get to their dad (on public transport), his partner drives them back.this has never been 'agreed' on either informally or formally, however if I do not pay the transport, they would simply not go, and their dad would tell the DC's that I am stopping him from seeing them (he has form for similar accusations)

this weekend only DC2 went to visit their dad.DC2 came back and said that 'dad has said if he has to pay maintenance then he wont be able to see them' (the kids) as they 'won't be able to afford the petrol'. The ExP also spoke to DC2 about the 'csa' as DC2 asked me what the csa was.

I have instigated csa action as the ex stopped paying maintenance for 6 months (he had been paying £5 a week) with no communication to me as to why he had stopped, or that he was stopping payments. I told DC2 that it was not appropriate for his dad to discuss maintenance with him, and that maintenance and access are two separate issues

I am now wondering what to do. I do not see why I should stop csa action (their dad has paid a total of (generous estimate here) £1000 in maintenance over 11 years (total, not each year or even each child) and has always had excuses at the ready to avoid paying. he moved abroad for a year telling the kids it was because i was 'taking all his money' after he refused to give the csa his income details, so they took a flat rate of £15 a week, plus arrears.he blamed me for this, not acknowledging that if he had been paying the £5 a week i had asked for it would not have come to that, and if he had co operated with the csa he would only have been paying £5 a week as a low earner.

he seems to be trying to manipulate me. how can I deal with this, keeping the DC's best interests at heart? I think he thinks if he tells the kids he cant see them as much because he is paying maintenance, that i will stop the maintenance proceedings in order to protect the childrens somewhat fragile relationship with their father.

thanks for your time, any advice appreciated.

well he certainly shouldn't be speaking about this to the dc. I don't think he should stop paying maintenance as you have the dc a majority of the time so it is financial help for that. You pay for the public transport so they get to see him, surely he can afford a once a fortnight trip back. Do not engage with him on this and pursue the csa route if he is unwilling to sort this out.

Agree.

Continue with csa

thanks, I will continue with csa. he texted me a few days ago regarding the csa, which I have not replied to as i do not want to get into a text argument (again) so I will continue with the 'do not engage' advice.

a bigger issue that is happening is that he also keeps telling DC2 that DC2 can go and live with him 'although your mum won't be very happy about that' DC2 seems keen to go and live with him. I am not sure this is in their (ie DC2's) best interests, although otoh I think that perhaps it is in their best interests to learn what living with dad would be like, and that perhaps it would be a 'lesson learned' about where their bread is buttered, iyswim? (DC2 is 12) ex has said nothing about DC1 going to live there. he only seems interested in having DC2 and I am sure it is 'lip service' to keep DC2 happy. perhaps i should make a separate thread about this issue!

I think a lot of men say the same kind of shite tbh
My xp certainly said the same as yours. Nothing ever came of anything tho. Im sure they just say it for a reaction....
I wish id known of mumsnet 9 years ago.....i spent far too much time engaging in text rows with xp, but for the past couple of years (as he still kicks off now and again) i never ever reply, coz i know this annoys him more than anything i could ever text

oh he definitely does stuff to try and get a reaction. DC1's birthday card (which he sent back with DC2 today) is a 'happy birthday Grandad' card. my dad died less than a month ago last years birthday card to DC1 had the words 'fucking bastard' on it. for a 12 year old. i did not react and will not react to this card either.

Omg....thats awful
No best not to give any reaction ....hard sometimes tho isn't it!

Sorry about your dad. Xx

I guess ex wants one child to stay with him so he can stop paying CSA & get hold of that child's CB :(

I assume dc2 is the easier child to manipulate to his way of thinking...is he trying to cause a rift between the 2 dc??

His transport issues & costs are his problem & he chose to move, why are you paying for his transport?

Ignore what he says to the DC he shouldn't be discussing these things with them, as you say maintenance & access are 2 totally seperate things if he has an issue he should talk to your directly or, preferably, via his solicitor.

If you are going to disengage then do it fully by not paying for HIS transport costs, and get your solicitor to write to him asking him NOT to talk to the DC's about moving to live with him as it is distressing them.

Good luck.

thanks Dee, the grief is still very raw as it was a sudden death. I think DC2 idolises their dad, and thinks the grass is greener. I do actually think ExP agreeing to DC2 living there is a load of hot air as every 'yes' is followed by 'but your mum won't allow/like it.' so he thinks he has covered his base, and given DC2 the answer they want to hear, without actually thinking it will come to anything. I do not think he is trying to cause a rift, the older one is not that fussed about seeing dad, however i would imagine there would be a rift if he had one and not the other. (I am actually quite annoyed with him that he thinks its ok to offer one of them to live with him,but not the other.)

Bossy,thanks, If I do not pay for them to get to his, he would not have them at all. I am paying as I feel I should support my children in their relationship with their dad, rather than to help him out. I also am in the tight spot where if I refuse to pay, he will yet again tell the kids I am making it hard for him to see them, and I do not want the kids to think that is the case.

I think i may go and see a solicitor. I have never seen one before about family matters and am a bit clueless. from what I have seen of friends 'contact agreements' done in court, the dads seem to regularly flout them and there is no comeback.I would also struggle to pay the fees. I think as well if solicitors and court were involved, he would disengage from the DC's totally (blaming it all on me of course)

I do think you need proper advice.
You cant keep paying travel costs just so he can see his kids. I understand why you do it but just because he threatens not to see his kids and saying he would blame you just isnt on. What else is he going to use those tactics on in the future!!!
If he stops seeing his kids then thats down to him and your dc will see that.

Anyone who can't manage to scrape together the bus fare once fortnight to see their own kids it a dick, pardon my French.

He could if he wanted however tight money is. You manage it !

Given he's tried to poisen your kids thoughts, I'd be tempted to sit them down and briefly explain that mummy has to pay for X,Y,Z ( i.e. everything ) , that it's tough without any help and perhaps show what dad's £5 or £10 buys a week. ( not very much ).

As a contrast, I pay £500 pm in CM and cover all costs of travel. Willingly. Without winging or moaning..

He is taking the piss on a number of levels.

Warn him he'll have to pay the travel costs in X weeks and stuck to your guns.

Good luck.

Agree totally with MrGin

thanks, yes I do need to send a clear message that I will not be manipulated or backed into a corner,as if it is not with travel arrangements, there will be something else he will move on to. I just don't know how to do it without the situation blowing up in my face as it has done in the past, and always in the past it is the boys who have been affected, and told by him that it is my fault.

he has a way of twisting things around so that the kids think it is my fault. they actually thought for a long time that it was my fault, and my fault alone, that me and their dad split up. he was the one who had an affair, not me! I worked really hard to save the relationship, but he was not interested.(I have never discussed the ins and outs of the split with them, just some basic facts) I have worked really hard to ensure they see their dad regularly and he just uses my efforts against me, nothing will ever be enough for him.

I just can't seem to see how to have an agreement that he will stick to, and that works, and that does not allow for his manipulation of situations. I guess I have learned that you cannot reason with the unreasonable, and am trying to ensure I do all I can to help the kids, despite what he may do/not do.

Exactly you cannot reasen with somebody who is so unreasonable.

You can only do whats best for you and your dc. Dont let him bully or intimidate you. Your dc will see him for what he is eventually....

Do we have the same bastard ex?

DC's Dad is the same, he has them
If and when it's convenient, I have to drop them off. He has NEVER paid child support on time and is still claiming to have them at least 2 nights a week when in reality it's 1 night every 2 weeks.

If I ask for anything even something very reasonable he immediately comes back with "I don't have to do anything, if I'm made to pay more I won't see them anymore" he's a shit, he knows legally there is nothing I can do to make him take them more and he quite often says "there isn't a judge in this land that can force me to have them"

I have now got to the point of reporting him to CSA about the time he has them, if he decides this is grounds for not seeing his children then so be it.
One thing I will not do however is lie to my kids, when they ask why I haven't bee able to buy cereal/pay for a school trip I will openly tell them their dad hasn't paid on time (as that's the only reason I ever get short of money)

I would be so tempted to text him and ask him what time he wants you to drop dc2 off with all there stuff. I know it's not what you want but it would be interesting to see what excuses he came up with. My ds kept threatening to go and live with ex-h until I told him to pack up and I'd drop him off he's never mentioned it since.

God, what gives them this fucking twat sense of entitlement that they think of it in terms of their company being some grand privilege for DCs?? If I was a NRP I'd be dying to see my kids.

I'd be tempted to say if you think refusing to see them is some kind of reasonable threat then clearly you don't want to see them that much in the first place, and the children don't need a dad in their lives who clearly doesn't give a shit about them.

That's probably the wrong answer though.

bertie I like that answer. unfortunately I think it will only serve to deepen his hatred towards me,along with his narcissistic rage,sadly. Maybe I will re-phrase it in some way!

I think what he basically wants, and has been trying to engineer for years, using many cunning disguises, is for me to say 'oh do fuck off then' then he can whine that I have stopped him seeing the kids and everyone will feel sorry for him and he can walk away from the responsibility thinking that he has won and is still seen as the 'victim' of my 'appalling' behavior

bright i do feel like calling his bluff. I want what is in the kids best interests. maybe its is in Ds2's best interests to learn that his place is with me, not his dad. I think the only way for him to learn that is to try living with his dad and see how it goes, however I am scared I won't get him back!

thanks all for your support and understanding. for a long time i was made to feel like I was the unreasonable one by him.

I would tell him he shouldn't be trying to blackmail you into not claiming the child support that is legally yours.

I would also be inclined to brush off his comments about DC2 living with their dad as not to be taken seriously. I'm assuming your ex thinks he could claim benefits for DC2 if he/she lives with him (though not necessarily if his partner is working). But even so, if he thinks he can't afford £5 a week, how would he imagine he could afford to have a child full time? Presumably it would mean a change of school (and your DC2 is I would guess just finishing first year at secondary?) so doesn't sound a genuine practical option. Personally I'd be nervous of calling his bluff on it, just in case he does say OK, DC2 moves to live with him and you end up in a situation where you don't think DC2 is being very well looked after but DC2 is happy enough and you're not able to get DC2 back again.

purple yes this is what I am worried about, luckily the ex does not have parental responsibility and I am not inclined to give it to him should he ask as he has moved abroad before and I am concerned that he may try to take them abroad, and not bring them back! I did consider,(trying to think of all options here) having some kind of agreement whereby if I feel, for whatever reason, that DS must return home, then that is what will happen, and without PR, the ex cannot 'keep' him. However, in reality I just don't know if the ex would respect any agreement.

As the DC's are at a Church school, a change of school would not happen,(ie it is the nearest school of that denomination to the ex's house) however it would be a long, expensive commute for DS. I would not allow him to change school at this stage in his education (end of yr 8) and considering our faith as well, I would not want him in a school that is not of our faith.

thanks everyone for listening to me sound this out.It is helping to write about it!

I don't think that legally there is any kind of arrangement you could make where you let DC2 go and live with his dad but can force the arrangement to be temporary (unless it's very temporary - eg just a few weeks) his dad - Your ex could allply for PR (and would get it, even if you opposed him - based on the fact that he's involved in the DCs lives as things are at the moment, and certainly if DC2 was living with him) and then it could be hard for you to force him back. You'd be reliant on DC2 wanting to come back, or your ex wanting him to - which might be risky.

hmm ok thanks for that, purple that is food for thought. I was considering saying that he could stay with his dad for the summer hols, and then see where we go from there, hoping that the ex would back down or that ds would realise the grass is not greener.

I would certainly want to see an increase on the current access level, sustained for a period of time ie 6 months, before considering allowing him move in there. the current arrangement (2 nights a fornight) has only been in place since september last year. prior to that, contact was sporadic, sometimes with 2 months between visits(which took place at my house-yet another thing I was not happy about) for a couple of years after his return from abroad.

The current arrangement is very much 'ad hoc' with nothing set in stone until the wednesday prior to a weekend visit. Their dad will not commit to a schedule, timetable or diary or anything.He never has. It makes life very difficult.(for me and the kids) I have never been able to plan a weekend away without the children as I cannot guarantee I will not have them, for example. I feel it is just another method of him trying to control me.sigh!

By the sounds of it tho no matter how easy you make it for him he will still slate you to the dc so i would start saying dc and you need a set schedule whether it be every other wkend or 1 night every week etc, you need to set down times for pick up and times for drop off etc....this is only fair!

From day 1 my xp and i and my xh and i set up an every other wked and one night for tea.....obviously over the 9 years this has changed as xh stopped seeing his kids 8 years ago and xp has ds EOW but ds wont go for tea in the week anymore!
I never drop off or pick up...... I used to as xp used the maintenance money to get me to pick ds up but i soon stopped that game by going to the csa!

I have tried and tried for years to get him to commit to a schedule but he has point blank refused, or agreed to it, then changed the arrangements at the last minute.He simply will not respect any arrangement. I have gone to mediation with him, where he decided on, and agreed loads of stuff, and none of it ever happened.

I often wish that when we split up when the kids were very little, that i did not bother to pursue contact. It makes me sad to say that but it is true. he has used his position to continue to abuse and control me for many years and its only been in the last few years that I have learned to deal with his ways better, although I am clearly still not managing it well enough!

I think he knows that i would never say 'ok your'e not sticking to the plan so you are not seeing the kids' maybe i should have taken this hard line with him but i don't see why the kids should go without a relationship with their dad just because he cant commit to set dates.