Help with new contact arrangement and maintenance

[brightonlights]

I'm not sure what I'm looking for really... maybe some opinions and experience?

I've been seperated from my DD's dad since she was one year old and she is now six. She always spent every other Fri/Sat/Sun night with Dad and a Weds night. Plus two weeks in the summer and some extra nights over Xmas.

It has worked well as far as I am concerned. He pays on the nose CSA guideline maintenance and I pay for everything else. I don't count my house/ bills etc as a cost of my DD's as I would need to pay those anyway, and he has to have those things at his house too for when she stays there. But I pay for everything school related, food in the week, and all her child care costs which are £360 a month on their own.

I have resented paying for all her childcare and all her school dinners as he has his CM pro-rated for the nights she is with him, yet by the time he gets her she's fed and cared for etc, he just has to take her home and to bed - but I have never pushed it as I know legally he doesn't have to pay anything other than his pro-rated 15%. And I suppose I think I'm lucky enough (depressing thought) that he pays anything. Although I don't believe in patting him on the back purely for not being scum

I have recently made the decison to leave my career so I can be at home for her more, (supported by my DP and some ad hoc consultant work) so childcare costs will be nil in a few months time. This annoyingly coinsided with DD telling me she misses her Dad too much when she doesn't see him Wed-Weds every other week and want's more contact with Dad. I have listened to her and I understand that a whole week every other week is too long not to see dad, particularly when the weekend is so intense with the three nights. So I want to facilitate this and after months and months of asking him on her behalf he has agreed to a Monday night after the weekend she has been with me. She is very happy with this and although I'm a bit gutted as for five years I've been used to things the way they are - I know she comes first.

Anyway - finally I get to my point! I will lose quite a bit of CM because of that Monday night as it takes him in to the 156 nights+ category. I'm put out by that because again, he will be fecthing her fully fed, watered and cared for and merely have to take her home (a drive he does anyway because of work) and look after her for an hour before putting her to bed. He will then give her breakfast in the morning and at school the next day she will eat a school dinner that I have paid for... So, would I be unreasonable to sit down with him and try to arrange something other than what CSA suggests?

To put things in to perspective, on the current arrangement he pays £225 a month and has done for years, on the new arrangement he will pay £169 a month - all for two extra sleeps a month at no cost to him...

If you think it would be reasonable for me to at least broach the subject - how would you suggest I go about this?

I've looked at the private arrangement conversation guides on cmo website but it's hard for me to assess how much she actually costs - for the past five years she has cost way more than twice what he gives me as childcare alone is £360. But I honestly think that £169 probably just about half of her costs what with me being at home so I feel a bit greedy to ask for more - but surely five years counts for something..? and my change in circumstance is for her benefit.

Oh I don't know, I think I just need a sounding board.

You could switch her to packed lunches, then her dad would have to supply them on the days when he has her.

Or you could try suggesting that he reduces the CM just be the actual additional costs that he will incurr (ie 2 breakfasts a month = £2 month?), or that he adds on the costs of the dinners you feed her on the days he has her overnight - I would think most people would assume an overnight stay to include a dinner.

But if you reckon he's giving you roughly half her costs, and no doubt incurring some costs of his own (at the weekend at least) then he's not really paying you too badly, and might well say no.

As kids get older your childcare costs tend to go down, and the costs of their activies tends to go up though - so you might be better to ask him if he'd fund any activities that she does - or keep that in mind to suggest whenever she does take something up, especially if it's on a night when he has her.

Yes you are right. I've never been one to want to take more than I'm owed. But I feel that seeing as I have funded everything for the past five years, it's a bit churlish of him to immedaietly pay me less just because legally he can.

He is awful at packed lunches so I don't think we'll go down that route - although, if I ask him to pay for school dinners he will opt for packed lunches anyway so I guess either way, I lose on that front!

She doesn't really do any activities yet but I'm sure she will soon and yes I may need to readdress the balance of him paying for things on the days he has her if he wants to pro-rata as that seems fair. At the moment for example, I pay for all friends birthday gifts even if they occur on him weekends, becaus ein his words "That's what I pay you maintenance for"

I guess it just makes me mad that a NRP can blindly follow the CSA with no mind for what is sensible, yet an RP has to just find the money for everything that's needed.

I wonder if mediation would work...

Do you get/will you get CTC, CB etc? You should probably bear that in mind if you decide to ask for more (unless you are prepared to split it with him). No harm in asking, though, and mediation might help.

I left my husband 3 years ago with my two daughters and have never had a penny of manitenance! He is claiming benefits and working, so the CSA will do nothing. He has been reported for benefit fraud, but nothing has yet been done. I have paid for everything, I am a full time student so living off student finance that has to be paid back, tho I do get £109 a week child tax credit. I live in a privately rented house, which is not cheap!
Sorry to just butt in and winge on your post, but I suppose I just feel jealous that you are even getting something, even if it isn't what you want...... Good luck with it though!!!!! xx

No I don't get either as dp earns the threshold in the nose. My ex's wife earns the same as my partner so we have equal support from other incomes.
He's refusing to show me p60 so I'm wondering if I should go down csa route...

Thanks mumandtwo how utterly shit for you
I'm not going to compare him to someone so feckless though, I compare him to my dp who would give his dd the shirt of his back, and her mother for that matter if she needed it.

I think.................. if you're going the CSA route there's probably no point in starting negotiations about the above issues. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just predicting his response if you want to then go on and discuss extra payments. But you may of course find he earns more than he's letting on and it fixes the issue for you anyway.

If you don't do the CSA I think there are a few things he might respond with.

Firstly if he's having dd 168 nights a year under the new arrangement..... that's around 10 nights per year short of half the entire year. I'm assuming ( never a good idea ) that he also pays for her clothes, food, toys, books, etc etc when she's with him, so he, like you, also contributes over and above the £225 he hands to you currently.

In fact on paper he will have dd for 46% of the year, yet will still give you regular payments of £169 in addition to the costs involved when dd is with him. I think it's going to be tricky to convince him he needs to pay more in CM.

You say a couple of times that you fund everything and that you resent it, and I'd expect if you say that to him it may not go down very well or lead to an amicable agreement. It wouldn't with me tbh.

It might be an idea to both list down what your costs are towards dd's life and work from there. Paying for dd's hobbies / classes should be split 50:50 in my opinion, as should birthday presents for friends and stuff like that. But every situation is different. I offer my XP half the cost of dd's classes, XP declines, but I contribute well over the CSA calculation.

I doubt this would be a runner given what you've said, but if you shared care 50:50 it would probably make things fairer and clearer. You're only going to be one night a month short of it anyway.

If it were me, I'd give up on trying to get the CM to remain at £225 ( as it seems to be contentious ) and make the argument that he should share the cost of dd's classes, school trips and hobbies.

Thanks Mr. Gin, that's really helpful.

He does have costs at his, but his Mum buys all her clothes and she only needs food on Saturday and Sunday (4 days a month) because I pay for all her meals during the week. I also do friends birthdays, classes, holidays and of course the biggy childcare so that we can both work etc. I appreciate he will be having her 46% of the nights but not 46% of the time or indeed the cost

I think you are right, I will go down CSA route (called them this morning and got ball rolling) and then ask him to pay for anyhting that falls on "his" pro rated days. Rather than ask him for the money directly. Is that reaosnable from your point of view?

As a bit of an aside... the CSA told me they go on his last two payslips as far as his income is concerned... but my DP has to include bonues etc in his assessment and was asked what he earned in the previous year. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

My ex was doing the same with not showing me his p60 (claiming not to have it or know where it was) - a threat to go to the CSA managed to make him find it, Might be worth a try before you go to them direct.

If he is earning what he says he is, you could end up losing out if he thinks you've gone to the CSA unnecesarily. I don't think you can force him to pay for the things that occur on "his" nights other than the money he actually spends himself (ie he has to pay for food that he feeds her, but you can't force him to pay you for the food that you feed her, nor for clubs etc if he starts being difficult)

brightonLights

Yeah, that did occur to me after posting, that 46% of nights doesn't necessarily equate to 46% of the time and expense. < bangs head on desk >

I was playing the devils advocate to a degree, and conversations about money are never easy at the best of times.

I think what PurpleRose says about how you can't force him to pay any more if he's being difficult is fairly central. It's about negotiation and making him realize that it's right and proper for him to make a fair contribution. But doing so requires both parties seeing the others point of view.

It's a mine field.

I contribute £500 pm to dd's upkeep at her mums, well above the CSA calc. My XP has on occasion mentioned me paying more towards child care, but I simply don't have any more money unless I stop buying anything for dd when she's with me, or move into a one bed property. So in a way it's a pointless conversation. But I wouldn't feel out of line arguing that at least some of my CM contribution does / should go towards nursery costs.

If he were to have some sort of flexible working arrangement that allowed him to pick dd up from school that at least means you're not having to feed dd before she goes to dad's. Referring to time dd is with him as 'days' rather than 'nights' might help cement the idea that there are costs involved in the day too.

But then you have to be prepared to let him make crap packed lunches. I'm sure your dd will let him know soon enough. Hopefully he'd realize on his own. Depends what sort he is.

I think the best scenario is to somehow get on with each other, remove any resentment or lingering grudges from the past and work together for your dd. Once you remove the negative aspects from the situation it's easier be sensible and reasonable with each other. I know that is often near impossible though.

I think it's reasonable to sit down and go through what dd actually costs you both. I think it'll be apparent that 2x£169 doesn't cover any extra curricular activities. In all likely hood the real cost would be more than he'd be willing to pay. But a wise person would point to a high figure and offer him a discount so to speak, then he may think he's getting off lightly whilst actually giving you more. :)

Thanks guys. That's the thing, I want her to have a nice time when she's with her dsd, I don't want to bleed him dry. But I want him to be responsible for her, as I am.
I've emailed him telling him I've gone to CSA and about paying the costs for things when it's his days and he text back saying "that's all fine" im astounded he thinks I'll take that on face value, there's no way it's that easy

Since then he's called and text A LOT asking me what info I have provided the csa and can he help me with anything, am I sure I want to go down this route as there's a lot of stigma on women who use the csa

So something's afoot...

If he's not worried about it, I assume he's fairly confident his maintenance is going to go down.

Eh? Stigma on women who use the CSA? What exactly does that entail I wonder?

Sorry to butt in, you've had some good advice and I have nowt useful to add

No huansagain, he's thinking I'm having a mini tantrum and will be easily manipulated when I cool down :)

banana! Well when I went back to work after dd was born there was a stigma against that... Then when I decided to leave work that had a stigma too... Now I want to use the csa there is also a stigma... Thank goodness I have my ex as my jiminy cricket else lord knows how I'd negotiate my way through motherhood

Ah, thought I was missing something it's a miracle you have been able to go through life under the burden of all that stigma

I'm a teacher and attended a governor's meeting where one of the governors was talking about pupil attainment and brought up the subject of children in the following groups: free school meals, EAL, single mothers. I was since single parents isn't a group we can analyse anyway, we don't even ask parents for that information. I wanted to jump to my feet and point out that 3 of the 4 members of the school's Senior Leadership Team (including me) are single mothers, and that all of our fantastic children are doing very well academically, thank you very much.

Ho hum, just another stigma to bear...

Anyway, sounds like the CSA was a good idea to me...I hope they nail him

I don't know how I've managed thus far either. He's being very very nice all of a sudden...

I've had some time to think it all through now and I do feel weird asking him for more money than he has to pay in the form of actual money - but i do beleive that as his days are prorated he should fork out her costs on his days. Of course in practice it won't always work as I'm clearly going to feed her and care for her on his days. But even if it's school trips, friends birthdays, clubs etc and school dinners (I've brave the crappy pack lunch!) that will feel much fairer.

I suppose I'm just annoyed that I have never asked him for money based on her actual costs because the money he gives me hasn't touched the sides, yet now as soon as he's able to reduce it, he does so. It seems so one sided. I guess it doesn't help that my bench mark is my partner who pays his csa money plus loads of extras and wouldn't have it any other way - just feel sad that DD doesn't have a dad like that... but if she did I'd probably still be with him

And hungry that is outrageous - too much daily mail reading going on there I fear!

Is YOUR DP's child older? Because that would account for the differences in how their incomes are assessed.

Your Ex will be assessed under CS2. If your new DP's child is older than 9-ish, then HIS case will be under CS1. CS1 takes loads of things into the income calculation that CS2 doesn't, as CS2 is a flat-rate.

IMO, they way to solve this is to change the pick-up time for your DD on her contact days so that her father HAS to provide her with dinners etc. You won't solve the childcare issue (big bugbear of mine, I am actually campaigning to get it INCLUDED in maintenance calculations), as it is all down to the Resident Parent right now.

Well I think it should be 50-50 shared-care, no need for resident and non-resident parents, no CSA and no maintenance.

Huansagain, yes, in an ideal world where Dad wanted to have 50/50, he didn't prioritise his work/ football/ mates/ running/ nights out over his child, he lived reasonably close to school and also the child wasn't used to having mum as primary carer since day one.
But back in a world with not just black and white but also shades of grey, this isn't always possible.

cardymow that's really interesting, I didn't know there were different rates. Thanks for the info. I am also passionate about childcare costs being split. I do think where RP gets tax credits that it should be half of what is left to pay though. My DH used to pay half of childcare for his DD whilst Mum claimed 80% of costs in tax credits - that didn't seem fair.

o rhe was capable of looking after the children on his own.

I do mean half the child are fees, but tax credits for the child care to be claimed by the parents separately.

So if both RP and NRP are in low income, in my world it would work like this: Child care costs £200 a week. RP liable for £100, NRP liable for £100. RP gets £70 paid by TC's, has to pay £30. Same for NRP.

If RP earns too much for TC's but NRP on low income, then RP pays £100, NRP's TC's pay £70, NRP pays £30.

If NRP earns too much for TC's but RP on low income, NRP pays £100, RP's TC's pays £70, RP pays £30.

If both earn too much for TC's, then both have to pay £100.

Simple AND fair.