When he's with OW: what/how to tell kids, organise contact, etc.

[BlooMoon]

Long story which I will try to summarise. H is on the verge of leaving. He wants to spend more time with OW. She is childless and lives alone, and wants him to move in with her, although he seems less sure. What IS sure is that our marriage is now beyond repair, so he fancies his chances of happiness to be greater with OW than with us.

I am distraught at the effect this will have on our kids (DD1 - 9 years; DD2 - 9 months), as we have not been in a high conflict household and it will come as a huge shock to DD1. Our marriage was pretty sound before OW came on the scene. But it's been dragging on for nearly a year; I have already done a lot of the grieving for our marriage and am shored up by friends and family and ready for him to go. But I cannot get my head around the fact that I will ultimately have to hand my kids over to the 'care' of the OW, who clearly doesn't give a shit about their best interests, and as far as I'm concerned is selfish, manipulative, and evil personified.

I am trying to find the middle ground between being civil for kids' sake, but not too doormatty for my own sake. We have both agreed that we will try to do this in the least damaging way for the kids. But that's where the problems start... I showed him the child-centred stuff I've been reading, which has in black and white the things I'd been wondering about for ages:
i.e. (paraphrased)
Present the split to kids with minimal blame
Don't introduce new partners until kids have dealt with separation
Definitely don't move straight in with OW; the kids will hate her

And now we are both paralysed with indecision...

I want to keep the kids away from OW for as long as I reasonably can, and am prepared to have H having contact visits in our home, at least initially. (I would go out. There will also be some times when I will be out at work in the evenings and would need a babysitter if H is not willing).

H also seems to think that he can treat the kids differently because of their age gap, (e.g. eventually wants DD1 for overnight contact but not DD2); I disagree and say they need to be treated fairly, therefore they come as a package or not at all, and we will need to find a compromise arrangement for contact that suits both of their needs.

Please help me by sharing your stories of similar situations, and advising me of benefits and pitfalls of particular arrangements.

Present the split to kids with minimal blame -- yes of course - no blame just present facts. how when and where dc will see dad once he moved out. he cant argue with that . having dad visit with dc at home may jsut b too confusing - is he there or not? best they move on to reaity and they visit him in his new house. you could agre short visits and that the new partner goes out and leave them time alone for first visits etc. introduce gradually but you cant get away from fact dad has moved in with x. hiding it will confuse dc even more. they need the truth.

Don't introduce new partners until kids have dealt with separation

how do you define deal with? this could take a lifetime . or if you all factual - they will slip into new sitaution with a few blips and questons. (however much you hate him for doing this -that is your anger and hate and not the dc's) hiding the new woman from your child may even make it worse for everyone including the child who is being denied the truth.

this makes no sense really - the deed is done he has a new woman and kids gonna have to get used - for 9 months old she too young to realise anyway and will grow up with the new partner and separation
for the 9 year old - well is old enough to have it explained factually. dad is goin to live with x.

mum and dad still love you yo will visit dad. dad lives with x so you will see x. (if x has any sense she will seek advice on being a good stepparent)

Definitely don't move straight in with OW; the kids will hate her

well it is the dad's choice and it isnt a given they will hate her. they may or they may not. lots of factors.

they may hate her for taking dad away - but really that is adult stuff.
child needs to be supported to deal with their feelings abou it but it is a reality. dad has moved on. if dad has sense he will make sure that he pays full attention to dc when they visit and x is not full on etc. but you cannot control that. you cant control who he takes dc to see when in his care (and vice versa).

As cestlavie says, I agree with point 1... but not point 2 or 3 and am happy to look at a link but I have never seen that advice anywhere myself.

Children know when they are ebing lied to. The baby won't know any different, the 9 year old is quite old enough to be honest with. Well, age appropriate honesty. "Daddy and Mummy won't be living together anymore, I understadn that you will find it strange but Daddy is now living with another lady who you will see when you are with him. You must talk to both of us about your feelings whenever you want to and we will make this as easy for you as possible. But we can't change the fact that this change has happened. We both still love you just as much as before"

Wait and see what OW is like with the children. Do you know she won't make a good Step Mum figure for them? Despite how you feel about her personally...

My ex moved out when DS was 4 and DD was 3 months. He did come round to visit them at mine for the first few months, which worked fine as a temporary measure, though I don't think you'd want to do that forever. Once he had somewhere to stay he did have DS on the odd sleepover, but started taking DD too overnight from about 9 months. No reason why not too as long as your DD2 isn't breastfeeding in the night and won't take a bottle.

But with that age gap, you may want to set up your contact arrangement to give them both a bit of time on their own. Otherwise your 9 year old will miss out on things you find you can't do with her when you've got a baby as well. So you might want a bit of variation in contact, though from the point of view of giving you a bit of time off, and helping them develop their relationship as sisters you'd be best to make most of the contact time both together. You may also find that your 9 month old likes to have her sister with her when she's away from you.

I think most people would agree that it would definitely be best if your ex could move out and live on his own for a bit before he decides if he wants to move in with OW. Even if he just rents a bedsit, he could have your DDs for sleepovers and start developing his solo parenting, and your DD1 is less likely to blame OW for you splitting up if she's introduced a bit later on.

But from your position, you can suggest, ask, encourage, etc, but at the end of they day he may decide to move directly in with OW and you'll have to live with it. It's not ideal, but nor is it catastrophic. Your DD1 may be unhappy at first, but if you and your ex both support it, there's no reason why in time she won't be able to maintain a strong relationship with both of you. Your DD2 won't have a clue, so will be fine with whatever setup you move to - you'll just need to deal with any anxieties about being away from you she may have.

But from your own point of view, it's shit - and not easy having some other woman around your kids when you're only just getting used to being away from them. Only think I can advise is to make it clear that you will only deal directly with your ex about all aspects of their parenting. He may, of course, choose to discuss things with is new partner, but you shouldn't feel you need to deal with her directly. You're not leaving them in her care, you're leaving them in their dad's care. I had to pick my ex up on this for a while - he kept saying "we think..." or "we can't do...." which would really wind me up. But he's better at it now.

and the best thing for DC sake is that the new woman in your ex life likes your DC and cares about them. just like a teacher or nanny or other carer.

she is a bitch to you of course - but really you dont want her to be a bitch to your dc to make you feel better... your ex has chosen her rightly or wrongly. keep communication open and honest so dd can tell you if there are any real issues

.

(wishes exp would find a nice and lovely woman so DC would feel happy seeing him as there would be another adult in charge who is not exp!)

Amen to that cestlaviw, my ex's fiance is the only reason i don't lay awake at night when DD is there!

H also seems to think that he can treat the kids differently because of their age gap, (e.g. eventually wants DD1 for overnight contact but not DD2); I disagree and say they need to be treated fairly, therefore they come as a package or not at all, and we will need to find a compromise arrangement for contact that suits both of their needs.

It is quite common for contact orders to be written differently for siblings of different ages; had you stayed together, it is likely that one child would have been involved in activities with one parent while the other did something different with the other.
If you insist that your DC's always come "as a package" then it is likely that both you and your ex will rely on others to care for one child while you spend one-to-one time with the other. It seems more beneficial for the children for them to spend time separately with each parent, rather than in the care of a third party.

One thing I do wish I had agreed with my ex is an overnight "right of first refusal". It is commonly applied by courts in the USA, and although it wouldn't work for everyone, it can help prevent resentment, particularly when there are step-parents on the scene.
It basically means that if you are unable to care for your DC's on a night that is "usually" yours (based on whatever routine you have in place), then you ask the other parent whether the DC's can spend the night with them, before arranging any other childcare/babysitting. Of course, if the other parent is unable to, then you are responsible for arranging alternative care.

I agree with purple - you are not handing over the DC's to the OW care - and she may well resent your expectation that she will be their primary carer.
They are your exH DC's - and he will have to parent them - with his DP's support if he so chooses.

Thanks all, some useful ideas and perspectives there. Reading your posts, I have realised that there is an awful lot of hurt bubbling under the surface that I clearly haven't done a very good job of dealing with yet.

I'll write more tomorrow in response - currently on phone with H lurking downstairs. The source of the info was a Relate book, so sorry cannot link to it.

Here's the info: book was Help Your Children Cope with Your Divorce (Relate). Ok, I was definitely paraphrasing, but there's a chapter on Agreeing New Living Arrangements, in which it says: Moving In With A New Partner ... it's often the worst scenario for children ... having to adapt to a significant new person in their parent's life can feel totally overwhelming. They're also much more likely to feel resentful of this new person and blame them for the breakdown of their parents' relationship ... It's best to live alone at first and then introduce a new partner at a later date when the news of the break-up has begun to sink in and everyone is beginning to settle.

It also acknowledges the difficulties a new partner can create when trying to establish a successful co-parenting relationship. So yes, I can try to rise above all of this crap, but at the same time I need to find some middle ground where I don't feel walked all over. I am worried about the lessons DD1 might learn from this if I don't handle it right, i.e. man treats wife very badly indeed and wife rewards him by bendng over backwards to ease his transition into his shiny new life.

I should add that I'm feeling bullied and blackmailed by this man, who I used to think the world of. Our home situation is currently appalling. He keeps being nearly ready to leave, then backs off and says he's not sure and needs more time to think. I've been on the verge of throwing his belongings out, and on one occasion tried to call OW on his mobile to get her to come and collect him, but he wrestled the phone from my grasp. Now, after having both read the Relate book, he tells me I can't just throw him and his stuff out in a moment of anger, because that's not the best way to handle things for the kids. Yet he won't take the initiative and decide to leave in an organised fashion, as the book recommends. So I feel really stuck.

It seems to me that the whys and wherefores of whether he moves in withher straight away etc aren't really at the crux of it. If he was able to make a decision and you were confident that he would put the children first, you could probably all work around the fact that he was moving stright in with someone new.

With the best will in the world it's not always going to be a good diea to rent on his own if there is a house ready and waiting for him due to finances etc. And you never know, the new woman could actually provide a more stable environment than he coudl - he sounds a bit of a mess. Not that it's her job to pick up the slack for his rubbish parenting of course!

I really feel for you, you're obviously trying to do your best. But I would try not to get too hung up on what he chooses to do, rather be there for your children and be as honest as possible. As i say, their ages are relevent... a 9 year old will be very aware and will know if things are ebing hidden - the baby won't know the difference I shouldn't think. Assuming he has been hands on otherwise, if she doesn't really know daddy, it could be quite a wrench to begin with. Maybe split access arrangements would be better to begin with.

Cestlavie - what you say makes a lot of sense. It does bother me that I feel it would not be truthful to "hide" OW's existence from DD1. But I don't know how we can be truthful about her existence and at the same time avoid blaming. Even if we phrase it very carefully and don't blame directly, DD1 is not daft, and I'll end up with a myriad of questions once H is gone, and she'll draw her own conclusions.

Wickedest - I like your phrasing, might use something like that.

About OW and her parenting - I don't know what OW would be like in a parenting role. But I have huge concerns and reservations. I don't know OW directly, but we do have mutual friends, who have told me she is a "bitch" and said she has self-esteem and body image issues. Add to that the fact that she knowingly got into a relationship with a married man whose wife was pregnant, then continued to interact with him and encourage him to leave, even as we were supposed to be trying to reconcile. This is not the sort of human being I'd like to have influencing my kids as they grow up. She clearly puts her own interests above those of anyone else. I also don't want any of the body image issues to rub off onto my girls; DD1 has birthmarks and I've done a lot of groundwork encouraging her to not worry about them or people's comments about them.

Having said that, I think OW would be very very nauseatingly nice with them, Disney-stylee. But I'm worried that they might get attached, only to be dropped like a stone when she gets bored of H, or when their relationship breaks up. I don't think their relationship has a great chance of long term success, to be honest. I think they are both seeking happiness externally, having failed to find it within themselves. I must admit, I'm terrified that she wants my kids as a sort of part time hobby and/or status symbol - she gets to do the happy-family-cake-baking bit, but hasn't had to "spoil" her body by getting pregnant or giving birth, and doesn't have to do any of the less glamorous bits like nit checks. I just want to protect them from further feelings of loss/rejection.

And yes, I know that they will be his responsibility, but I know him well enough to know that he will delegate to her, and I think she'll be doing her best to impress him and will be pleased to take on that role, at least at first. So I do feel that I'm handing them over to her. And it doesn't matter how many times anyone says to me "don't worry, you'll always be their mum", it still terrifies me.

Sorry am crossing posts as I work through what you've all written...

My ex did that for a long while, not leaving. In the end I did throw him out - not exactly in anger, I just said he had to go and stay elsewhere for a couple of weeks and he could come back if and only if he was certain he wanted the relationship (he was umming and ahhing about it). Being apart physically made him realise it was actually happening and start to look for somewhere to live. I didn't throw his stuff out on the street or anything dramatic - he came back to collect it in his own time. It definitely needed doing and gave us both breathing space. But if you do it, you may find he moves in directly with his OW and it might then be less likely that he'll ever get his own place - so you need to judge whether he might get his own place if you give him more time - if not you might as well just chuck him out, assuming he's not contesting you for staying in the house.

But one of the things about splitting up with someone is that you can't any more decide together how to do things. You may have to live with him deciding things you don't like (eg moving in with OW). Punish your ex for it anyway you can think of, except by blocking access to your DC as that would not be fair on them.

About contact and the age gap - some useful comments about the contact needing to be different because of their needs. I think what I was originally trying to say was that their contact needs to be equivalent, but I accept it might not be identical. The most important relationship to preserve in all of this is the sibling one, because they have the rest of their lives together as siblings. I can see the benefits of separate contact sometimes, but I think they need to learn to be together most of the time. I'm worried that H will want to take DD1 preferentially, as he's already bonded with her, leaving me literally and metaphorically "holding the baby". If he backs off from contact with DD2 now, as he has implied he might, then in 9 years time, their relationship will be very inferior to his and DD1's.

Purpleroses thanks for the tip - yes, I intend to only deal directly with H about their care, at least initially. wouldn't want OW to end up with her eyeballs on the end of a fork

By the way, I think I would feel a lot less awful about this if she was just a new partner, and not instrumental in the break up of our marriage.

NADM I like the idea of "right of first refusal" and it has really made me think. I was leaning towards getting grandparents to help as first choice when my shift work is difficult, but have realised that I would be offended/upset if H left the kids with OW/grandparents if he was busy but I was free. So I guess I need to offer him the same in return.

Wickedest - think you have hit the nail on the head. If there was only a clear direction, I could begin to deal with real problems, rather than the cloud of imagined and exaggerated problems I'm currently trying to get my head around.

What did you mean by "split access arrangements"?

Purpleroses - did yours end up with OW or not in the end? How did the home visiting access go? Confusing for kids? For you? And yes, I would never want to punish him by mucking about with contact. and all other punishments I can think of are probably not legal

Purpleroses - did yours end up with OW or not in the end? - No. He had various women he was chasing after at the point when I throw him out but none were serious. He got together with his now DW a few months later. I'm pretty sure she wasn't on the scene any earlier - so a bit of a different situation to yours. His DW has been on the scene for about 7 years now I guess, but I still don't ever talk to her about the DC except the most basic of converstaions if for some reasons my ex is not available.

His visiting at mine did work out OK for the first few months. Either he would take DS out for a bit (and with a bit of a push from me would sometimes take DD too in her pram) or he would babysit and I would go out. The kids got used quite gradually to him just being around less and not staying there at night. DS would say "when daddy comes home...." and I would correct him and say "yes, when daddy comes round next....."

Then a few months later he found a bedist and started having them there rather than at mine. Woudn't have wanted him to go on visiting at mine on a regular basis too long though - it's nice to start feeling it's your own place, and feel free to form new relationships. But it definitely worked as a means to keep his relationship up with the DC whilst he sorted out where to live. And the amount of tension reduced hugely once he wasn't under the same roof.

You may like my phrasing but I reckon you don't like my horrendous spelling and typos

sorry.

By split access (or contact as it is now called) I mean he could have the older one everyother weekend and one week day plus half holidays (i.e. the norm) and maybe just every other weekend or, say, a wednesday and a saturday for the first year.

I wouldn't worry too much about him having a lesser relationship with the younger one as it wouldn't be forever.

You sound thoroughly terrified by everything which is completely naturel but I can tell you from expereince that everything does fall in to place in the end and it will work out. It really is the truth that you will always be Mum. The best thing you can do for the children is to let them enjoy their time with their future stepmum. Don't look for faults in her. I have a terrible body image but it has made me even more certain of not speaking about it infront of my step daughter. I fanything I go out of my way to be positive because I would hate for her to take on any of my traits in that respect.

Regards her "encouraging" your partner to leave. it may not be the nicest thing to target a man with a pregnant wife... but nor is it the worst thing. He was the one who made the commitment to you, not her. And who knows what lies he told her about you.

You're best off staying onside with her I think and just wait to see what happens.

DD1 is not daft, and I'll end up with a myriad of questions once H is gone, and she'll draw her own conclusions.

exactly. and that is up to her. just be factual. focus on having a nice time with your dc .

and you can always say "i Dont know the answer to that. ask your dad" .

and you are not responsible for his actions, not any more, you are no loner a couple. if it turns out down the line he has less conact with dd2 -well it wont be for our lack of trying. my friend has 2 hildren her ex left when youngest was four months old, for another woman.

now the youngest has by far easiest relationhsip with dad as it is all she has known that dad lives with new person and she goes between houses. the older knew it differently and has had more to deal with - but mum has supported her and as open conversations and both kids in the end are doing just fine and switching between houses no problem. they seem to lveo both parents equally tho do spend more time at mums marginally

sorri typos

love both parents equally

oh and my friend totally blames her ex for doing this - he is responsible for this choice he made. she doesnt blame the OW....

Good for her cest - wicked stepmothers, evil man-stealing other women, overbearing mother in laws... all created by society to excuse men for their faults.

I think perhaps you're overthinking it a bit - ime if you are just honest with the dcs and reassure them they are loved and (this is important) that the kids know that the adults are in charge and united then they will be fine.

I think contact visits at home could be confusing for them (and, if you're feeling hurt ,too demanding for you)

I don't think there's anything wrong with introducing a new partner and nor is there a correct timing; it's more how it's done.

tbh the main risk of any damage to the dcs is your obvious dislike of his new dp. How they will cope will very much depend on how you deal with your own emotions in relation to her.

my xh left me for a friend of ours. It was awful and I was deeply hurt. DC's were 3 and 1. I always said i would not stop him seeing them. Initially all was well, until OW became more important and he was letting my DC's down by not turning up to contact. I stopped contact until i knew he could be reliable (when he and OW split up he came back cap in hand wanting to see DC's, I let this happen on my terms and eventually we fell into a good contact arrangement for all of us.

XH and OW went through a make-up\break-up period. We agreed that as they were not a stable relationship my children were not to be around her until they had been consistantly together for 6 months (i would not have introduced them to a boyfriend before 6 months either) XH agreed to this.

When after 2 months i turned up to his mothers house to drop the children of and OW's car was there, i promptly returned home with my DC's. XH was not happy and turned up Fing and blinding at me, and i calmly told him the we had an agreement and he had broken that, so he would not be seeing the children that day. Eventually he agreed that he was out of order and the arangement resumed.

When they had been together 4 1/2 months (solidly) they moved in together. This is when i agreed that she should be part of my childrens lives, as she would be living in the house where their father lived.

This has worked very well for my children. I think it helped having a time to get used to me and XH being seperated before new partners came on the scene. Even if it was only the fact that they spent quality time with their father and i seperately with no other parties involved, so this showed how much we loved them.

My DC@s have grown up remarkably well adjusted, they are now 7 and 5, they are happy at both houses, and eve show off to their friends that they have 2 houses, 2 bedrooms, 2 sets of clothes, toys etc etc.

THeir father and OW are now engaged and I usually refer to her as my childrens StepMother, as this is what she will be in the not too distant. I am now married to a wonderful man who both of the children see as a father figure too. I think what i'm trying to show is things can work out well, in the end. The children will obviously be upset (more the 9yo than the 9mo) in the beginning, but with clear relationship boundaries they adjust remarkably easily.

I will also say me and XH never gave the children the impression that we would want to/could be getting back together, and i think this helped them cope with is, as we stuck to our decision (his decision).

Good luck, stay strong, and sorry for the mammoth post!

Really happy your children are so well adjusted and everything is happy. It all seems very controlling to me, but I can see why you did what you did.

I can't imagine taking the children all the way to see dad and then turning around on seeing a person's car - seems all very unsettling for the children. But it's obviously worked out okay.

Maybe we all over think too much and the children will eiather turn out fucked up or they wont

tbh i don't see it as controlling as putting my childrens best interests first, why should they go through heartache of somebody coming in and out their lives? I would not put them through that with casual boyfriends so why would i let my XH do it either?

Also XH had agreed to her not seeing the children and went back on it without communicating with me, if i had done the same to him he would have had the same reaction.

As i say, well rounded happy kids and thats all anyone wants.

Purpleroses - thanks for that, it's good to know the home-visiting thing can work out, and with the right phrasing may not confuse the kids. I've lurked enough on the Relationships board to know that it's very frowned upon over there, but it seems the lesser of several evils to me at the moment.

Wickedest - thanks for that perspective on the body image thing - I had never thought of it that way. And yes, I have been looking for faults in her, if only to bolster how I feel about myself. Oh - and you are a master of understatement : it may not be the nicest thing to target a man with a pregnant wife... but I take your point. He was the one that was supposed to stay faithful - and I do blame him mainly. But I still think she's a shit, and I also blame her for her part in this.

cestlavie - useful to hear how things can work out - I'd been worrying more about how the relationship with DD2 will develop if he doesn't seem interested; but maybe it will be easier for her as it will be all she's ever known.

zookeeper - nail hit on head re the main risk of any damage to the dcs is your obvious dislike of his new dp. I guess I know this, although I don't want to hear it. My hatred of her and all she represents is a real issue for me, and I've been seeing a counsellor since the autumn, but we're not getting anywhere on that front. Maybe a lot of it is based on fear, and once the decision is made and he's left, I will find that the reality is less scary than my imagination, and my hatred will subside a little. That's what I'm hoping anyway - I can see it is doing me no good at all, let alone the kids.

Stacey - please don't apologise for the mammoth post - stories with positive endings were just what I was hoping for. I'm sorry this happened to you too. I'm glad to hear you are married to a wonderful man. I don't think I'll ever be able to trust any man (or my judgement) again, because I thought I had already married a wonderful man, but I was wrong. How long did it take you to be able to trust again?