Mum/Primary carer perspective

[tomwm]

Hi,
Im in a particular situation i would really appreciate a different perspective on to help me make sense of it. The set up is rather personal and inconsequential to the scenario we now find ourselves in.

My wife wants a divorce. I dont, but accept that she does so am not contesting it. There are no other partners (as far as im aware) we have been separated for a year and we still need to sort out childcare and money/housing.

We both live in London and have a beautiful daughter age two and a half. Im currently renting a 1 bed flat and my daughter has a bed in my room. My wife lives in our jointly owned (2 bed) house and pays the mortgage (i payed half the mortgage for 10 months while living in a friends spare room but could not afford to now i have my own flat). I have agreed that any money she puts into the property, until we finalise a divorce, is hers.

My daughter stays over with me 1 night a week and i look after her on Fridays (i reduced my work to 4 days week to do so) and 1 day at the weekends too. Ive asked for two evening during the week and every other weekend...my wife is not ready for this it seems and is not engaging with me on it.

I currently pay my wife 15% of my take home salary. Ive suggested this might need to be reduced in light of the time i spend with our daughter but again we've not come to an agreement on this so im continuing to pay to avoid conflict..at this stage

My wife wants the house and has offered to pay me half of the money we put in, so i would get 6k. This is the maximum she can afford to remortgage for and says she has no other access to funds. My best friend gave us 20k as part of the deposit which she wants to keep and take on as a private debt to him.

Im grateful to earn a good salary of 45k. After tax and student loan (i still have one!) im left with about £2250 per month. I then pay child maintenance of £340 so the money im left with is £1910 per month.

My wife also has a fairly well paid job but earns less than me and works part time 0.5. She looks after our daughter the rest of the time. She earns roughly £1210 per month but with CTC, WTC, child benefit and Child maintenance at the end of every month she is left with £1881

So I have roughly £30 per month more than her. However my rent is £200pcm more than the mortgage on the house.

It goes without question that i should and will always provide for my daughter, both emotionally and financially so in principle i have zero objection to paying 15% of my salary to contribute towards this.

However what irks me is that I dont spend as much time with my daughter as i would like, i work more, i live in a 1 bed flat (not a two bed house) and i am left each month not as well off as my wife.

Surely this cant be right?

It seems every bit of support is for the resident parent and i, as a (non willing) non-resident parent have become second class. For instance, i take a day off each week to look after my daughter but sometimes i have to work (for instance travelling abroad) so i have to pay for a childminder. My wife also pays for a child minder but gets 70% of the cost paid for. I dont because im a non resident parent. The cost of a child minder in London is high so roughly half my days earnings that day go on that, then because i've worked a further 15% goes to my wife in child maintenance! Come on!

On good days i think. 'Well as least im getting to see my daughter and ive got a job!'. On bad days i get really F'ing mad at this ridiculous system. Rightly set up to support those that are left by errant and irresponsible parents but seems to penalise those that are no such thing.

Thoughts?

Like NADM I'm see both sides and I would encourage you take her advice that you do need to assert yourself with your ex and ensure you have more balance in the time with your dd. Your ex shouldn't be the gatekeeper of "best interests" of your dd so if you disagree with her approach then it is something you should pursue now. Sure all mums feel uncomfortable when their child is away from them but we have to be grown up and get over it. Parenthood is about these challenges, sending our children to school when they look so little, going to friends house without us, going on overnight school trips without a parent. Spending time with a loving parent isn't something a mum or PWC should resent.

I do struggle when I hear mums saying that they are not ready to give up time with dc's but at the same time use the "child's best interests" mantra. I feel it''s selfish and arrogant. My dd has now reached adulthood and I know that she would had something 'missing' in her life if she didn't have a relationship with her dad. You can only get that relationship by spending lots of time together.

Tom, do plan ahead and think of schooling. It is best if you can be involved as much as you can by taking her to school, collecting her and helping her with homework.Consider how you can get there and start getting your ex on board. If your ex does resist I would suggest mediation and court.It doesn't have to cost ££ and sadly is the only way to get greater balance if your ex will not be reasonable. DH did have to go the court route as he had tried many years of negotiating and waiting for the ex to be ready...it never happened and court was very straightforward. His only regret was that he waited for too many years.

121:

My ex tried to make this point in court, the fact that I was lucky enough to further my career whilst she had taken a years maternity leave. What she chose not to point out was that in actuality I was lucky enough to hold down a job in an industry going through lots of redundancies, and still managing to keep her in a very decent lifestyle she had become accustomed to while keeping a not so bad roof over our heads so we could PARENT OUR daughter.

Tom: your ex has assumed ownership of your daughter

Try and keep it amicable by all means but not always on her terms and not to the detriment of the relatinship of your daughter.

Some very sensible people on here have made some very sensible comments who are have gone down this road.

If she is of a controlling nature, she will get a shock should she choose to pass that control to the courts.

My ex didnt want to allow me holidays with OUR daughter until she was five. She is 2 and I took away a couple of weeks ago for a week - was she distressed, no - she was with her dad who can provide her the security and emotional stability she needs and all the fun she can take.

Try to get her in to mediation.

"If she is of a controlling nature, she will get a shock should she choose to pass that control to the courts."

Control is always mentioned in court wither by one parent or both, what I have found out though is that the court should have plenty of problems to find out who the controlling partner is (if there is one, or both are). IME most people claim to have a controlling ex, when in fact in most occasions it is not about a controlling nature but specific concern about particular situations... :-S

Keep that in mind. Easier to sort concerns about a defined problem than thinking the other partner is wrong as a "whole".

When one party assumes ownership and then 'allows' access then its quite easy to recognise control. IME, it was rather easy to identify the controlling bahaviour pattern as opposed to genuine concerns etc - but as we all know everyones case is different.

121 + pigletunrepentant. Thanks for your comments. To clarify: The reason my wifes earns 'significantly' less is because she works less...out of choice. her actually salary is 35k+ which is not that bad and considering she has no student debts (where as i do).

Her career did not take a massive break, our daughter was born just after my wife competed her training to become a doctor. She is a very well educated, clever and talented women. She also loves being a mum and we both wanted her to spend the first year of our daughters life full time, which is exactly what she did. The 'system' did not make that choice for us, we made it as a married couple in a 'together' family.

We (particularly I) always had ambitions for us to both work part time and share the childcare, but since things have gone sour between us this no longer seems to be something my wife is striving for.

My major point is that i really dont seem to have the choice to work part time now because it would be unaffordable for me to do so because the system will only step in to support one person.

I am paying full child maintanence and currently not taking into account all the time i currently take care of our daughter (as wold happen if we went through CSA). I dont believe the state should take care of us at all, we are both professional people with good jobs. I am slightly resentful that i dont have choice and that my wife lives what i consider the life i would like to lead, working part time and spending time with our daughter...and that this is funded and backed by a system that wont support me and my choice to do the same thing.

I am slightly resentful that i dont have choice and that my wife lives what i consider the life i would like to lead, working part time and spending time with our daughter...and that this is funded and backed by a system that wont support me and my choice to do the same thing.

Of course you have a choice! How do you know that the system won't back you unless you try?

Why shouldn't your DD benefit from receiving day-to-day care from both her parents? So many Dads refuse to step up and take on this responsibility, and you can - so instead of accepting what you consider to be inevitable failure, why not do the best you can to make it a reality?

Your perception of the system is misguided - I have shared state benefits to which DD is entitled with my exH, my Dsis has DSC who were subject to a shared-care CO over 10 years ago, against the specific wishes of the DC's mum, and the government has just issued policy that requires ALL public procedures to be accessible to "joint care" arrangements. You only hear the horror stories - lots of Dads do have shared care, equitable arrangements - often secured through mediation or court.

You have been given a lot of practical ideas and suggestions on how you can increase your involvement in your DD's life. Right now, it sounds like you are still grieving for the loss of what you anticipated your future was going to be; when you are ready, these suggestions will still be here - but be aware that courts do consider the "status quo" when making decisions, so don't wait too long

To be honest, what she could get in tax credits with that salary is negligible (unless she is working just a few hours a week).

I think you need to stand back and realise that her job decisions have nothing to do with you anymore. She may have chosen to work less and in that decision she has also chosen to earn less, and have a less comfortable lifestyle in the benefit of spending more time with her child.

If you are paying maintenance at the CSA specified rate, then whatever she decides to do, even getting fully unemployed, shouldn't affect your finances or how much you pay (Unless you have been ordered to pay spousal maintenance in the basis of need). If this is the case, where's the problem? it is not her fault, and honestly... 15% of a net salary is not a huge chunk of money. I'm sure I spend far more than that of my own salary on my child as a resident parent.

Don't forget, you can also choose to put your career in the back burner in order to spend more time with your child. Yes, the luxuries will be gone but, at the end of the day it would be your own decision, just as your ex's decision was her own. It is about weighing the different options and choose what works best for you as an individual rather than what is best for you as a "couple".

Pigletunrepentant: Did you read my initial post?

She works 2.5 days a week, I work 4. Im am doing the most i can to take time off work to support my daughter. My wife is not that worse off than me, £30 difference month by month. Neither has she put her career on a back burner, she is not in some part time 'filling up time' job. She is a professional who chooses to work less than 40 hours per week, thats all. She spends more on our daughter but i have to spend more on rent (which is for my daughter too as i would be renting a single room in a shared house if i didint have a daughter to look after) so id say it works out even...except that i live in a smaller place (sharing a room with my daughter), have to work more and spend less time with my daughter.

I cant take any more time off work because i cant pay my rent if do. I wont get child tax credits or child benefit (because im not classed as the primary carer) and i wont get payments from my wife (because im not the primary carer), also wont get support to help our with childcare...because im not the primary carer. I will have to pay less in CM but only up to a maximum of 7% less.

"When one party assumes ownership and then 'allows' access then its quite easy to recognise control. "

Lets put it this way, my DP's ex doesn't allow their child to stay at my house, the child should be put to bed at 6:30 (honest) no matter what, and she has demanded to 'vet' me to see if I was safe around her child.

I don't think she is controlling, I just think she is suffering the most acute version of precious first born syndrome after she spent 5 years trying for a baby without success. I can't say she is not annoying and I often find her very tiresome, actually sometimes I think that the only word that could describe her starts with a B but I believe this is not about control is about an exagerated desire to protect her child. It is not ok, it is still bad but it is not about control.

I have found out that she has got a bit more relaxed after years of returning her child alive after overnight contact .

Yes, I have read that, but what you have to understand is that you are no longer married and if she is doing best than you with less effort... though.

My ex has a very handsome lifestyle, but he is my ex, we are no longer together and it doesn't serve any purpose to dwell in the fact that he is rich, successful and living the life of Riley while I am barely able to pay the mortgage and raising DS on tax credits.

It comes to a point that as divorced individuals we have to accept the fact that it is no longer about equality between the parents. That went with the split. Obviously it's great when the most affluent partner of that dissolved marriage takes it upon his/her stride to keep supporting an ex partner beyond the CSA specifications to the benefit of children, but this is a bonus, and as unfair as it is, it is not an obligation.

I have taken the liberty of checking how much she would get in tax credits and other benefits with a salary of £35,000 pa pro rate, working 50% of the time, paying £90 in nursery fees per week (raw estimate) and an estimated council tax randomly selected at £1000 pa.:

She gets nothing. Apart of £20.30 in child benefit she is not getting any extra help.

pigletunrepentant: Someones calculations are wrong then. My wife has told me exactly what she gets. You can extrapolate what that is based on the figures i gave earlier.

Just to clarify that we are still married although separated. ONce things are dealt with i will accept them...the reason i started this post was to get some perspective on HOW to divy stuff up appropriately.

Thanks for your input.

T

Using the figures in the OP on entitledto (£1210 monthly net wage which using listentotaxman seems to be about £1490 gross, just under £18k a year) and Piglet's estimate of £90 nursery fees, she should be getting £110 per week in tax credits, which seems more than the OP's figures (£1881 made up of £1210 salary, £340 maintenance, £81 CB leaves about £250 which is only the CTC). Either she hasn't included WTC in what she's told him, or the OP has perhaps discounted the childcare costs before arriving at the monthly figure?) Just a thought, but it may be that due to the cost of childcare it is not financially viable for her to work full time - childcare costs (especially in expensive areas such as London) can be massively prohibitive.

Regardless, she is under no obligation to disclose her financial situation to you Tom, her finances are irrelevant to the amount you should contribute in child support or how much contact you should have with your daughter.

I'm not sure what you want from this tbh. You say you want to discuss the system in general, but when people speak in defence of it you say their comments don't apply to your situation. Unfortunately the benefits system does tend to be rather a blunt tool, it is very complex and difficult to legislate for all individual circumstances. I suppose in terms of separated families tax credits could involve an extra calculation based on how many night the child is resident (so the child element is about £50 a week I think, perhaps a separated couple would be able to make individual claims of say 3/7ths and 4/7ths each, based on their individual incomes) but I think on your income you would find you still didn't get any, even if you cut your hours.

With contact you say that you cannot reduce your hours any more due to work/finances which is completely understandable, but given that I am not sure how you can fit in increased contact? Evenings with a small toddler is not going to be great quality time - although this could be looked at again once she is older and at school with some discussion with your ex about childcare between school finishing and you finishing work. If she is already at her maximum budget for childcare it may be that you have to cover the cost of after school childcare on the evenings that you see your daughter after school. I really don't see the benefit to your daughter of changing your current arrangement at present. 2 days a week as you have at present is far better than every other weekend, and if (as I posted earlier in the thread) you could aim to standardise this over time to (for example) Thursday evening when you finish work until Saturday teatime then I think that would a really nice chunk of time together and once she starts school you will be able to do homework with her on the Thursday, take her and collect her from school on the Friday and then have a day together on the Saturday.

Out of interest, which days of the week do you and your ex wife work on? I am presuming that you work Mon-Thu, and she 2.5 weekdays, but suddenly thought that as a doctor she may in fact work weekends?

Thanks for your thoughts. They make sense. I guess to summarise, i am just trying to oust my grievances at not having the choice or opportunity i feel my STBX has.

I work Mon-thurs. My wife works Wed-Fri one week then Thurs-Friday the next.

We have childcare 2 days one week and 1 day the next respectively.

i am just trying to oust my grievances at not having the choice or opportunity i feel my STBX has

It is unjust, Tom, I know that - but if you spend too much time grieving for what could have been, you might lose out on an opportunity to create a future in which you are a big part of your DD's life.

Waiting is not a luxury you have. Courts do look at the Status Quo - if your DD has been in your exW care with only minimal contact with you for several months, this is what the courts are likely to order - whereas if you act now, making your ex aware that you do not accept her version of what is best for your DD, you have a genuine chance of securing shared care - which seems to be what you want.

I'd suggest you express your wishes in written form also.

notadisneymum: Thankyou. That is very honest speaking with practical advice. Now i just need to get over the fact that by taking time with my daughter i will be denying my wife that time...which i know she wants and she is a wonderful mum. I may not agree with her decision to end our marriage, but i still want good things for her and our daughter.

Endlessly tricky.

Thanks again

It's tough when it's all so new and what you really want - a together family - has beentaken from you. But the world of split house parenting really isn't all bad. The time you spend with your dd will be time when you're her main carer. A lot of married dads never really get that - they're always the second choice parent or back up for the mum. My DCs have a much better relationship with their dad than they ever did when we were together. And in many ways much closer than I ever was to my dad (still married to my mum and was alwAys at work or tired from work) My DC do sometimes say they wish we were together but rarely. They enjoy having two homes and new step parents. Don't think that all the time apart from your DD is lost time for you or your wife either. It can be a chance to do things you enjoy without kids or to work.

I agree with purple. It is massively hard when suddenly things aren't as you expected, but what I try to do (different situation, but the same feeling of lack of choice iyswim) is to let go of the things I can't control and focus on what I can, and to take the positives of the situation as much as possible. It goes in waves, sometimes I feel on top of my negative feelings and others I feel I am drowning in them, but it is a grieving process of sorts, and you have to remember that you and your wife may be at different stages of it. When I ended my relationship I think I had already gone through the necessary stages of denial, anger, acceptance etc while processing my decision to end it before it had actually happened, and in hindsight my ex had to go through all these things himself after the split and was quite far behind me in that process (hope that makes sense?). When he moved away (400 miles and hasn't seen them since), the opposite was in play almost, he made the decision to move and went through the necessary thought processes before he moved, I am still wavering between anger and acceptance of the situation a year later because of the impact it had on the children and on my life as a whole.

FWIW, I have seen many people anecdotally say what Purple has, that often a separated dad ends up having much more alone/quality time with his child(ren) then when in a relationship with their mother. Just because she isn't with you all the time doesn't mean that you are not or can't be a major part of her life.