Families need fathers all over the news today

[Sheila]

Bloody Louis de Bernieres also on R4 sounding off about his rights. It all seems so remote - I just wish XP was interested enough to demand contact with DS - usullay it's me naggaing him becuase he sees so little of his son. :(

I'll go along with fines for parents who don't stick to court orders.

Yep. Me too.

"Well, you did share quite a bit of it on this very thread."

And none of what I shared bore any resemblance to Riakin's hate-filled misogynist tirade, did it? But nice try at trying to validate his/ her loony post.

Viz "I'd live in a tent if I downshifted" - everyone thinks that. But you know what, if you really want to step up to the mark as a parent, you'll shift heaven and earth and make financial and social sacrifices, to make sure that you do equal parenting. Women were told they couldn't get into the workplace - they did it. Then they were told they couldn't function both as mothers and workers, and have decent careers with part time hours, because their household economy wouldn't stand it - they changed their household economy and they did it and are doing it.

Men have to start fighting for what they want (if they genuinely do want it - lots of men don't really, they pay lip service to wanting to do equal parenting, but actually secretly like the fact that they can escape their fair share of boring repetitive stuff and stay in the office being busy and important and then being able to pull rank at home as well because they're the Chief Income Earner and therefore the Most Important Person In The House), the way women had to fight and are still having to fight, for what we want. Stop whingeing that it can't be done and get out there and do it. As I said before, men have two big advantages over women: 1. They have more power than us and if you have a mass movement of men demanding flexible hours etc., they'll win the battle quicker than women did and 2. The other half of the workforce supports them wholeheartedly - most women won't begrudge men having paternity rights the way so many men have begrudged women their workplace rights while pretending to be in favour of equality in the past.

Julia - what are you talking about? I totally disagree it is not my intention to go anywhere near children up chimneys or anything like that. I am trying to make progress for children and that would be the opposite of progress.
I have backbone thats why I continue to try and educate plonkers who still believe that men cant be fantastic parents and equally good as women.
Sometimes I pity the children who are being raised by parents with such putdated views.

Oh and I cant wait for some reactions to the fathers maintenance contribution having to drop as he reduces his hours in the hope of gaining more contact with his children.

Many men would jump at the chance to be fully involved in the day to day stuff you complain at having to do Balia

I'm going to advise my children:

Don't become the sole earner.
Don't become financially dependent on someone.
Share the child-care and chores 50-50.
Have children with someone who earns a similar salary and ambition.

Housework isn't important, do the minimum possible.
Don't iron anything.

I'm sure they won't listen and they'll marry and have children because of love and not listen to cynical dad.

I already do flexible working Basil. I'd do more but my XP can't seem to find any time in dd's massively busy schedule for me to see her any more than I do. Apparantly her singing / yoga / whatever class is more important than time with daddy. That is what she said.

Any suggestion that I have more weekly access results in venom. I could of course take her to court but I can't afford it.

I already make financial and social sacrafices, but paying a decent CM and running my own home which is geared to dd requires I work -bloody hard-- all week.

Latemates maybe I misinterpreted what you posted; you seemed to suggest that 'we're all in this together', with which I strongly disagree. Did you intend a different interpretation?

I already do flexible working Basil. I'd do more but my XP can't seem to find any time in dd's massively busy schedule for me to see her any more than I do. Apparantly her singing / yoga / whatever class is more important than time with daddy. That is what she said.

Any suggestion that I have more weekly access results in venom. I could of course take her to court but I can't afford it.

I already make financial and social sacrafices, but paying a decent CM and running my own home which is geared to dd requires I work -bloody hard-- all week.

Oops. So good I posted it twice ! Phone error

Er, men don't need to pay maintenance contributions to women they live with, Latemates.

Although thinking about it, that's not a bad idea. To pay your DP a proper wage for her labour, as well as her NI and pension contributions in recognition that one partner's work at home, enables the other's work outside the home, is one way of ensuring that men value the work their DPs and XPs do.

And if men would jump at it, why aren't they doing so? Where is the campaign for flexible and part time work for men and why aren't more of them doing it? Women do it all the time, they sacrifice their careers, their pensions, their social status, to do so. Men would give their right arms to? Well no-one's stopping them asking for part time work when they have kids, just as many women do in many sectors.

Blimey.

I have just read something Truck posted, which I agree with.

I'm much maligned.

I think 'total tit of a man' was my favourite comment about me.

Julia - how come your not suffering like the rest of us then? Or are you saying you alone are feeling the effects of a recession?

In a relationship there is a partnership that means as partners you work out the best way for you hoe to be run. That may be that the father does all the cooking and the mother does all the cleaning and they both work their jobs so that they minimise childcare costs. It may be in a different partnership that they agree that one person(either the mother or father) becomes stay home parent whilst the other work. Each family can do this in the way that works best for them as a family.

In a separated family - the old system no longer applies whatever that may have been. Both parents will likely now need to provide a home, be involved in raising the child in everyday every apspect ways, cook, clean, work and provide child care.

"I'll go along with fines for parents who don't stick to court orders."

I agree with this but only for court orders. I'm still a bit uncomfortable at this:

"I don't see why NRP's shouldn't be required to see their children"

I would NOT be sending my children to ANYONE who had been forced to see them. I'd rather get on with it on my own.

Oh and men are working hard to convince their exes to allow the child to spend more time with them, some are saving hard for court, some will never go that route due to cost, possible consequences of daring to go be find a mothers back to try and get their childrens rights met, some continue to hope that their ex will see the damage they are doing to their own children, some are actually going through court cases (but they are assumed to be violent horrible people and that is why the exes prevent contact).
there is little point having reduced hrs or flexible working if the ex will not allow contact

You pretend that for the person who has downshifted and given up their career, they can just willy nilly go back to the marketplace and earn what they would have done if they hadn't had a decade or so out of that career, during which time the other person's career has prospered as s/he has been able to dump all the domestic stuff on the Stay at Home partner and devote him/herself more fully to his/ her career?

That's incredibly convenient for the one who has built his or her career up, isn't it? "I no longer want to live with you, this arrangement doesn't suit me any more, so you are now required to go back into the marketplace which no longer welcomes you and I can pretend that we both operated on an equal playing field and the fact that you have no longer got a hope in hell of earning what you would have done or retiring with the pension you would have had, if you hadn't been the convenient SAHP, is not my problem or concern. And the fact that our children have got used to that arrangement and are happy with it, is also of no interest to me, because it doesn't suit me anymore so it will have to change".

Great. And er, which member of the partnership is it who usually takes on that role again, who is going to be high and dry?

The one part if the partnership hasn't been forced to be a stay home parent if that's what has happened. The parent who has gone out to work may not have cli bed the career ladder. Depends what their abilities are and what kind of work they are in. The parent who has continued working may also not be the one who left the partnership. RP have also left relationships due to many reasons. You make an awful lot of assumptions.

If one parent decides to be a stay home parent they has chosen to take a career break. Lost of parents do have children and continue to work. Others decide that they would prefer to be a stay home parent. Whatever the decision, whatever the reasons. After separation the old system is not financially viable in the same way it was.

Prior to seperation; 1 home, 1 set of clothes / toys/bedding, 1 set of beds, wardrobes, furniture, 1 tv licence, 1 lot of bills. 1 family holiday cost shared between 2 adults. Ditto with Christmas/birthday costs.

Post seperation ; 2 homes, 2 sets of clothes etc etc

Most people would grasp that money is going to have to go a lot further, that lifestyle will need to change or income will need to increase

Ah yes, we all make choices in a vacuum don't we, our choices aren't at all influenced by our circumstances...

And as I said. Remarkably convenient isn't it.

What a co-incidence.

Someone has just told me that in Canada, if you don't pay maintenance for a year, you are automatically classed as a delinquent parent and you lose all parental rights.

That is as it should be, I think.

It's unthinkable that it would happen in this country, isn't it?

Yes some countries have a much better system. Some countries do shared care and one parent can't act god a prevent the other parent and child having a proper parent child relationship. I which we would copy the best methods from more child friendly countries.

And not all parents miss maintenance payments you know.

Yes that right decisions due to circumstances : that works both ways - i am sure that lots of NRP wish they had not supported their ex wish to be a stay home parent, whist they worked to provide if it means that ex now abuses their child by preventing proper access

But as a human we make the best decisions with the knowledge we have at that time. But you seam to believe that the one parent should be punished for the decisions they made as a couple while the other is rewarded.
You want it all your own way and seem to have forgotten that it is the child that should be the focus.

Julia - I can choose to not engage in the discussion you and Gin were having, so no, my hopes of staying out of it were not misplaced at all, thanks. Gin -

Funny that latmates, it seems to me that you want exactly what you accuse me of wanting and are forgetting that the child's interests should come first...