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Families need fathers all over the news today

469 replies

Sheila · 03/02/2012 14:20

Bloody Louis de Bernieres also on R4 sounding off about his rights. It all seems so remote - I just wish XP was interested enough to demand contact with DS - usullay it's me naggaing him becuase he sees so little of his son. :(

OP posts:
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bananaistheanswer · 08/02/2012 15:04

That is the justification nrps have for this new legislation, an rp could in some cases use the courts, fabricate stories and deny their children access to one decent parent for over a year. In that respect it lacked equality

I officially give up on this.

duchesse · 09/02/2012 15:41

I'm imagining that there is a financial agenda behind this move. I'm quite certain the current govt don't actually give a shit about children beyond the financial aspect of them. I would think that the aims are to encourage the NRP to be shamed into contributing towards their children's upkeep if they are seeing them regularly, thereby reducing the RPs' dependency on the CSA (ha!) and/or benefits and tax credits.

I'd imagine they'd be delighted to be able to wind up the CSA from an ideological POV.

BasilRathbone · 09/02/2012 20:36

But the tories are the ones who brought it in.

In the old days, you could actually go to court to get maintenance and have it enforced (although obv, you needed to be able ot afford to use the court to get it enforced). The CSA was set up, because in those days hardly anyone paid maintenance - it was even worse than it is today, and the govt. was outraged that all these women were claiming benefits while the men who should have been supporting their DC's, weren't paying a penny.

It was a big deal at the time, you got men marching in the street to complain that the CSA were taking money from their new families and threatening to hang themselves because they were so outraged at having to financially support their own children. It was a stomach-turningly disgusting sight. They've shut up now, because they realised no-one had any sympathy with that idea.

saladcreamwitheverything · 03/03/2012 03:42

Here's my experience and therefore fact.

Fact: My DH has a 6 yr old son.

Fact: My DHs exP has denied access to his son since January 2008, accusing him of DV.

Fact: After 3 years of waiting for various reports involving SureStart and CAFCASS my DH was awarded unsupervised contact in Feb 2011.

Fact: In March 2011 My DHs exP has accused DH of "kicking, punching and swearing" at his son whilst in his care.

Fact: The above did not happen (I was there all throughout the contact session)

Fact: DHs son has told CAFCASS and Social Services that his dad "kicked, punched and sweared (sic)" at him.

Fact: Social Services have never bothered to contact my DH about this allegation.

Fact: DHs exP's ex partner (getting complicated now) has made a statement saying that DHs exP has been coaching my DHs son what to say.

Fact: Social Services have never raised the possibility of her emotionally abusing her son (ie coaching him what to say).

Fact: we have spent in excess of £15,000 in legal fees for my DH to try and get access to his son.

Fact: (based on the above) the legal system regarding fathers getting access to their children needs a complete overhaul.

My six week old son will probably never get to meet his 6 year old half brother because DHs exP is bound to come up with some other allegation and we simply cannot afford to pay any more money on legal fees.

Fact: DHs exP is on benefits and gets a seemingly bottomless pit of Legal Aid therefore she can take the piss as much as she wants.

Any progress that can be made by groups like Families Need Fathers and F4J need applause.

That is all.

saladcreamwitheverything · 03/03/2012 03:56

PS My son is six weeks old and because of the legal fees sapping our savings and i'm the main earner, I'm back at work full time (42 hours pw) my DH is now a SAHD to my son and therefore his CSA contributions to the exP will stop. She won't be receiving any money from my income. No doubt some of you on here will have something to say about that.

Sorry, but she's shat her potfull with me.

Emmielu · 03/03/2012 09:25

It upsets me when i see 2 of my friends in tears because they've been to court or mediation representing their kids & what they want for the kids is either being more dragged out or declined. One of my friends has said she will let him see their son WITHOUT asking for ANY form of money. Just as long as their son gets to see his dad. His reaction: No.

Its getting hard to split the dads who give their everything for their kids from them dads who like to play vitcim when they do naff all anyway. Theres only so much one can say or do about a dad & if thats not enough, then what will help? After 5 1/2 years of trying to get DD's dad to see her, last month he said i want nothing to do with her. No updates on how shes getting on at school etc. 5 1/2 years of representing DD. I never asked for money. I dont think money could ever buy DD's love.

MagicHouse · 03/03/2012 11:25

I guess there are terrible stories on both sides. Saladcream your story is horrific, and I feel really sorry for the situation you are all in.

My own story is of an ex who was controlling, abusive and a liar, who was never very interested in parenting until we split up. At which point he sought advice from FNF, and it all became about his rights as a parent. He denied everything that had contributed to our break up, and was suddenly at pains to become involved in the children's lives, and to make me out to be completely neurotic (as a way of denying what happened in our marriage).

I know he told FNF a completely different story about why we had split up (the real story was quite horrific). I guess we are all swayed by our own experiences, so for me I wonder how many ex's tell a pack of lies in order to make themselves look good. My ex was quite a practised liar, and quite believable from the outside.

I guess I can't help it - I will always think, well there are 2 sides to every story. To FNF, I was just another neurotic ex wife, who had no reason to be concerned in any way over access rights. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose experiences in the marriage leave them with many reasons to worry.

edam · 03/03/2012 11:37

The courts appear to bend over backwards to force children into the control of violent, abusive men. There are cases every year in the news of children being murdered during court-enforced contact. Violence is no bar to contact - because apparently a violent man 'may be a good father'. Really? If I punched dh, I wouldn't be a good mother, I'd be a shit mother who wasn't fit to be left in charge of a vulnerable child.

MrGin · 03/03/2012 14:08

edam that is rubbish.

60 children a year are killed by one of their parents. The circumstance may be different but mothers are responsible for killing children in roughly as many cases as fathers.

Courts do not 'bend over backwards to force children into the control of violent, abusive men ( and women ) '

edam · 03/03/2012 17:03

how about this case? or this one??? perhaps this one??

If you look into the figures, you'll see distinct differences between killings committed by men and women. Men tend to kill older children out of sheer hatred and rage - in order to punish women who dare to leave them. Women generally don't do that, although there are very rare cases where it does happen. Women tend to kill babies when suffering from psychotic illness, or kill older children when they are desperate and have been begging for help, e.g. Fiona Pilkington.

In child custody cases, it is violent men who are the risk, not violent women, with very rare exceptions.

MrGin · 03/03/2012 17:13

Oh are we playing link bingo ?

Mother depressed over job fears kills herself and her two children

here

Mother accused of killing her children 'used them to control husband'

here

Theresa Riggi admits killing her three children

here

Mother Shayma Ali killed daughter, four, 'as sacrifice'

here

etc etc etc

You're right, there is a difference in circumstance between how and why fathers and mothers kill their children. But to say courts bend over backwards to put children in the care of violent people is ludicrous.

edam · 03/03/2012 17:28

MrGin, the courts do indeed insist on access for fathers who have beaten the mothers. That's a fact. The courts seem to believe that a violent man is perfectly capable of being a good father and that you should assume he's a good father until proved different. This is clearly nonsense and a complete reversal of the truth - a thug is NOT a good parent.

MrGin · 03/03/2012 18:16

We are agreed that equal numbers of fathers and mothers kill their children. All be it for different reasons. The outcome is the same never the less.

If you're going to raise the point about children being murdered due to court enforced contact, it's fair to point out that the result of court cases also leaves children open to being killed by their mothers in equal numbers. Taboo as it may be.

There are dangerous people of both sexes and clearly the courts at times fail to protect children from fathers and mothers.

saladcreamwitheverything · 03/03/2012 19:13

Edam have you read my post??!!^^

I can assure you courts don't insist on access for fathers who have allegedly beaten mothers, never mind the ones that have!!!

Latemates · 04/03/2012 11:22

A friend of mine was physically and mentally abused by his ex wife for years.
His ex wife is the RP and he is still abused by her now by having contact withheld to get her own way etc. She is now abusing the children emotionally but his advice from protection agencies is that as the effects of abuse are currently minor (self esteem problems, withdrawal etc) residency won't change until effects become more apparent and extreme and even then she wouldn't have contact stopped altogether.
Interestingly she has made false allegations about him and these are always investigated luckily he has had evidence and they have been proven false, resulting in her getting a small warning and him being advised not to make a complaint on being falsely accused in case it causes her to make more allegations.
Terrible but fact. But I am aware enough to know that not all women are like this.
Just as not all fathers are freckless wastes of time.
Bad and good in both sexes.
But the law is looking at removing the current unfair system in place now. This is part of equality ....
Different religions have equality, ages have equality etc as a starting point.
We all have a right to freedom but if we break laws or become a danger to others we lose those rights.
Why shouldn't men and women have equal rights to maintaining a relationship with their children?
In a situation where a child is deemed in danger social services will if required remove the child from the dangerous situation. Why do people feel this will be different if men and women are seen as equal after separation?

edam · 04/03/2012 12:52

Salad, perhaps you'd like to tell my colleague, who had to have her dh arrested twice for attacking her? Fortunately the police removed him and she got out. He still has access to both children, even though drug testing proved his coke habit.

saladcreamwitheverything · 04/03/2012 21:10

Perhaps my DH needs a coke habit then, we may have more luck!

PigletUnrepentant · 04/03/2012 22:10

Well well... I rang FNF when I was trying to get a reality check about what I considered were unreasonable demands for increased contact from the ex...

They were horrified...

... and right, exh doesn't give a sh*t about his child. They said they could not imagine how DS' father could be so callous and be demanding more contact.

Obviously, they help so many men desperate to see a little bit more from their children, that they are not blind or oblivious to the disasters of crappy dads. They find them equally outrageous (or worse)

angrywoman · 05/03/2012 11:48

Thumbwitch, thats a great title for them. The vast majority of Dads who don't get to see their children are in that position for a reason! IME judges will bend over backwards to keep the child in contact (maybe supervised) with the father, no matter how he behaves/ what psycho reports say etc. Just some Dads want it all on their own terms....

MrGin · 05/03/2012 12:32

.... as do some women

molepom · 05/03/2012 13:41

Funny how it's all over the news now...

Isnt the budget next month? aren't these changes to CSA and benefits coming in soon?

Funny That. Twats.

MrGin · 05/03/2012 13:54

Funny how it's all over the news now...

Suggest you check the date of the OP.

Or possibly read the 450 odd posts between angrywomans reference and here.

sunshineandbooks · 05/03/2012 16:53

Louis de Bernieres is an excellent novelist whose novels I adore, but he's a sexist, manipulative idiot who spouts a lot of nonsense. I really think FnF should ditch him as their patron.

I have a female friend who had a lot of help from FnF when she became the NRP after 13 years of being the RP herself. There is a place for FnF and it would do their cause a lot of good if they could lose the public image association they have with groups like F4J. Having LdeB as patron isn't helping that happen. Instead it's reinforcing it.

I am firmly in the camp of believing that the fathers being denied contact issue is far less pressing an issue than NRPs failing to pay maintenance (which isn't to say that I don't believe it happens). Despite the compliance figures mentioned below, my own trawl through CSA/CMEC figures show that 46% of those complying with maintenance orders are paying the £5 or £0 rate. The average figure of £440 is grossly inflated because of some mega high payers, just as the national average salary is. Those who have come to private arrangements will still be included in the figures if the RP is in receipt of tax credits, since you still have to mention this income even though it is not taken into account precisely because the government want figures on it. Sure, some RPs may not mention it, but there's no point in lying since it doesn't affect anything.

My point is that if we're going to prioritise family law in terms of what is going to have the most beneficial impact on the greatest number of children, then maintenance should be a higher priority than father's rights. And since this is being presented very much as father's rights (as opposed to the current child's right to a relationship with both parents) then why is there no mention of mother's rights? Where is the mother's right not to live in enforced poverty because the father won't pay maintenance (or the child's right to the same for that matter)?

Coming back to DV. Home office stats (and I know this because I just had a training session on it) are that 1 in 4 women experience it as opposed to 1 in 6 men. This includes same sex relationships BTW and it seems that DV in homosexual relationships is sadly quite high. Anyway, DV rates compared by gender is not roughly equal. Also, within single parent families, DV is much more prevalent (applying to about 1 in 3 in comparison to the wider population figure of 1 in 4).

I also hold no truck whatsoever with the argument that a bad partner can be a good father when it comes to abuse. DV is a factor in 75% of child abuse cases. There is an increased risk to a child who has a partner-abuser as a parent. Quite often, this risk increases, instead of decreases, as the child gets older and challenges the parent more. IMO any instance of abuse should result in mandatory supervised contact and in severe cases contact should be lost altogether.

More recent research shows that NRPs who are unreliable and sporadic when it comes to contact cause as many psychological problems as no contact whatsoever. Therefore I'd like to see contact automatically stopped if there is an obvious pattern of this. I've seen far too many resident parents (of both sexes) dealing with distraught children who have been let down yet again - often on the day - and think it's because they're not loveable enough or important enough to the NRP.

I'd also like to see greater credence put on the standard of contact. The point of contact is for the child to continue a relationship with the NRP. This does not happen when the NRP turns up with a hangover, palms of the child on GPs, friends or even a new partner, takes the child to the pub, plonks them in front of the TV or XBox. If your child matters that much to you then on the days where you are granted exclusive contact to spend time with your child then do something that matters. I'm not condoning it because bad parenting is not the same as abusive parenting, but I've seen this used as a reason why some mothers withhold contact. They are concerned about the standard of care their child receives. That's not spite, that's protectiveness, albeit possibly misguided. A lot could be done by the system (and the NRP) to alleviate those worries and so improve the likelihood of contact continuing on an amicable basis. There are RPs out there too who neglect their children and NRPs who desperately worry about this and want to see it changed. I think family law should take a lot more account of differing standards of parenting and encouraging parents to come to an agreement about standards that are acceptable to both parties. It would save a lot of aggro later on and also send a clear message about what sort of behaviour is unacceptable.

The trouble is that family law and the family courts need a dramatic shake up. THey fail a lot of people. And because they do it in such spectacular fashion, it tends to set those at either end of the debate (i.e. RPs who have useless NRPs, and NRPs who have spiteful RPs blocking contact) against each other, when in actual fact they are both bearing the brunt of a system that doesn't work while the feckless NRPs and the spiteful RPs are getting away with it and playing the system for all it's worth.

It's very very sad. Sad

nongenderbias9 · 09/03/2012 11:10

Sheila. I don't understand what you are talking about. Please explain. If your x shows an apparent disinterest in the children, then surely you should be applauding Louis De Berniers stand in wanting to carry on being a father to his children.
Your attitude is incomprehensible to me. ?Confused: [confused

EstroGena · 12/03/2012 16:50

My exp has been psychologically assessed as being a significant risk to our DS That was 3 years ago and weve been in a contact centre since. He is an active member of FNF and is taking me back to court for unsupervised access on the grounds that I am unreasonable. I have never denied contact...just want him DS to be safe! FNF are supporting and advising him...but i question if they know the fulll facts or have been given a convenient editted version?! Anyway.....just to say....its all scary stuff when a fathers rights seems to outshadow the rights of a child to be kept safe, first and foremost.