Families need fathers all over the news today

[Sheila]

Bloody Louis de Bernieres also on R4 sounding off about his rights. It all seems so remote - I just wish XP was interested enough to demand contact with DS - usullay it's me naggaing him becuase he sees so little of his son. :(

The laws are the way they are (complicated and sometimes appearing unjust) because children are involved and they do not have the right to make decisions about their future. I think we'd all agree on that.

A six month time limit on such contact cases will result in partners being given automatic shared parenting. This completely undermines all the current laws designed to protect children and vulnerable adults. It also undermines other forms of law involving money, marriage, probate, etc etc.

It's typical coalition pattern. "I've got a brilliant idea - OK then, let's implement it". And it will result in the usual "Oh dear the lawmakers wont allow us to steamroll it into submission - but it was worth a try because it give us an opportunity to appear to be tough".

Watch and learn as the NHS, the education system and benefits fall apart at the seams, cost billions in wasted consultancy and resulting in a system which makes bigwigs richer and poor people more vulnerable.

" I mean what a belittling name designed to make you feel marginalised. "

I can buy this, never thought of it that way before (possibly due to not being a father). Snorbs gives a good explanation above but I think men, in a lot of cases have completely drawn the short straw when it comes to the kids. Women can wear their single-parent status like a badge, as I said above (I chose not to) and feel that they are the ones that are being marginalised etc etc. I think the tables have pretty much turned and rather than all single mothers being looked down on as benefit scroungers looking for a free council flat, it's men who are all being seen as "dead beat dads" (only using that term as it's been so freely used on here, it's an awful Americanism brought on by too much Maury Povich and Steeeeeve shows).

When I was a single parent I held the power, I never used it, would never have used it, but I held pretty much full control over whether my ex saw his kids or not.

Probably not a good idea to link the discussion here with a separate one on reducing benefits - I didn't really mention if for that reason, just to illustrate that there seems to be an underlying move to make people stay in their family units, regardless of how bad that family unit has become. I take your point about the CSA needing funds but perhaps the funds should come out of the CSA payments once agreed? Rather than needing to be an upfront payment which may never be recouped by the parent seeking payments from the NRP.

It hasn't even occurred to them, to take the CSA payment from the NRP rather than the RP.

Men have drawn the short straw with kids, because they prioritise their careers.

They have got to start putting their money where their mouths are and going part time, downshifting their careers, working with their DP's to ensure that they take an equal role in parenting so that if the relaitonship breaks down (much less likely if they're working as a more equal team and understand each others problems better) then they have been equal partners from the start and they will automatically get shared care, not because of some spurious equal rights starting point, but because they are actually genuinely equal parents.

It means giving up some income and pension though. And it means re-organising your priorities and society. Men have two major advantages here: They already have the loudest voices and most power and women actually support the ones who have the aspirations to be equal parents at all times, not just when their relationships with the mothers of their children break down.

Thumb. I agree. But there is obviously a cost involved for the CSA to pursue a non-payer. If that cost for that service comes after settlement then the initial cost of pursuing the the claim has to come from somewhere. And there isn't any money left. Quite the opposite.

Like I said, we're still in for the 94% of cuts that haven't taken hold yet. It's going to be ugly.

Of course the claimant now is the one who may have to borrow money to start a claim. It's a tragic reality that stretches out to Women's refuges which also seem to be under threat now. Add them to the list.

< playing the devils advocate >

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Personally I can't understand how someone can neglect their own flesh and blood. I'd be interested to know why some people are like this as, contrary to some opinion, I think it's still considered by society to be terrible behaviour.

"They have got to start putting their money where their mouths are and going part time, downshifting their careers, working with their DP's to ensure that they take an equal role in parenting so that if the relaitonship breaks down (much less likely if they're working as a more equal team and understand each others problems better) then they have been equal partners from the start and they will automatically get shared care, not because of some spurious equal rights starting point, but because they are actually genuinely equal parents."

Who can afford to do this? Families need at least one parent working full time just to pay rent/mortgage, bills etc. Where do the CSA payments come from when the NRP is only working 20 hours a week?

I'll make an exception and give you my personal experience purely as an illustration not as a sweeping indication of how it is.

My husband works away for 4 weeks at a time so that we can afford to pay maintenance to his child with his ex and still have a decent standard of living ourselves. All this while the EX has sat on her backside for 7 years not feeling responsible one iota to provide her share of the financial duties.

Part time? I bloody wish. I'm a married single parent.

There won't need to be CSA payments if both parents work 20 hours a week.

She hasn't been sitting on her backside, she's been raising her kids.

If men did more of that, it wouldn't be called "sitting on your backside", it would be recognised as the work it is, because men would be doing it.

There is a massive resistance by some people, whenever this solution, which promotes social, equal and parenting equality, is suggested.

Fifty years ago, the idea of women in the workplace after they'd had kids, looked impossible.

Women showed that it wasn't. Men have to show, that the idea of them taking equal responsibility for parenting, isn't impossible. They have to want to do it and they have to do it. And then if their relationship broke down, there would be no question of only one parent bearing most of the responsibility for continuing to parent that child. It would be obvious that both parents have been responsible and will remain responsible.

The group which can make this happen by campaigning for rights and actually doing it, just like women did, is men. Let them get on with it and support them to do it, instead of pretending it's impossible.

oh and notfluffy try not to be so emotionally involved, it weakens yer argument doncha know.

(That's sarcasm btw)

"She hasn't been sitting on her backside, she's been raising her kids."

While he was at school all day?

Due to having to pay several hundred pounds a month to her, I had to work part-time, not allowing me the luxury to stay at home with my DD full time.

People can't afford to work part time. We NEED his full time and my part-time wage, I know most other people are in this situation. You're very lucky if you're not.

"it would be recognised as the work it is, because men would be doing it."

I don't buy this. I manage to work part time, study and be a good mother. What the feck do people do all day when their kids are at school? Their house is probably much tidier than mine, lucky buggers.

Riakin, can you please provide a link or more details about the 'gov research' in 2007 that show 50% of contact orders are broken out of spite?

I would be very interested to know more about that.

"oh and notfluffy try not to be so emotionally involved, it weakens yer argument doncha know."

I made it quite clear I was using it to illustrate my point. Which is a million miles away from using it to damn all women/men it may apply to.

Mr Gin It is genuinely sad to see the ease with which you have been utterly deceived by the 'maxed out credit card' bollox of the Condems. There are thousands of articles disproving this nonsense cps.thereisanalternative is a good place to start.

How interesting that you feel the need to make up all sorts of fanciful notions about my life and pscychology Riakin

I think that says more about you and your buy-in to misogynist myths, than it says about me.

Seeing as how you haven't got the slightest clue about my life and who I am or who my ex is, all your suppositions are based on your misogynist stereotypes of lone parents, aren't they?

Which kind of says everything anyone needs to know, about where you're coming from.

JuliaScurr sorry I must have imagined that our country is almost a trillion pounds in the red.

silly me.

Ah yes, and women and children must pay the price for that.

Of course.

Let's not question it.

Oh, Riakin! If you only knew

Basil. I'm not saying don't question it. I was just pointing out our country is up shit creak and has massive debts. and somehow Julia thinks I've been deceived into believing this.

We are all going to suffer. Men, women and particularly children. Pointing it out doesn't make me complicit or supportive of it.

Mr Gin God, you read that CPS pamphlet fast!
Did you see this? 'Danny Blanchflower (Bank of England) notes the (G Brown) budget stimulus led to ... 3.1% growth 2009-2010. Under the Coalition the following year, the economy grew 0.3%'
Just saying.

Well there goes any credibility that Riakin may have had.

In some ways I hope MNHQ don't pull the post, just so that people can see how low Riakin felt the need to go in a personal attack on Basil. Pathetic.

Yes, MrGin I think you've been had, because you have

I have just caught up on this thread, and have also reported Riakin for personally attacking Basil. I think she has made some truly excellent posts in this thread and has come in for a totally unnecessary pasting from posters who seem to be making points on far less researched grounds.

JuliaScurr please explain then because I'm certain our country has massive debts which need servicing with massive interest payments.

Is that not the case in your Universe ?