initial visitation agreement for toddler and baby

[sillywmama]

Hi,

I'm in the first week of official separation following discovery that H has another woman. I'm 14 weeks pg and have a 17mo. His family are putting the pressure on for me to get in touch with an initial proposal for contact/visits already. I don't want to rush into anything I may regret, or undermine myself by being unreasonable or not making a good case for what I want contact to look like.

I want as much information as possible about the psychological needs of babies (up to 3 years old perhaps?) that will help me put together a strong case for H having to come to us regularly, with no overnights outside of my home for the newborn and minimal disruption for my toddler. I'd like to have a basic plan for the next 12 months. I don't know if that is realistic? I'm not anti overnights completely for 17mo DS in principle, but I don't want H to try and take him for 2-3 days at a time while I try to establish a new routine in a new home, and introduce a new baby in July. I am willing to have XH visit in my house, several times a week, but for short periods (an afternoon or morning, maybe doing the bedtime routine twice or three times a week etc).

I am trying very hard to put aside how I feel about him as a person and focus on what my kids will need (to know their father) but the thought of my newborn and my toddler being away from me for a full day, or overnight, makes me sick with anxiety right now. Also, I can't believe it's good for them or in their best interests to be ferried about the place and stuck in travel cots here and there while everything settles down just to satisfy his desire to see them.

I also don't want the OW to be involved in their care, but I don't know what grounds I have to refuse (please, if there is anything I can do to avoid this in the short term - say til baby is 6mo at least - please, please advise me!!) I know in time things will improve and as the babies grow they will settle into this being normal. But for me, its hideous. I need to keep my sanity as well as involve him, for the sake of the kids. If it were up to me I'd never see the man again but children change things.

If there are articles you know of from journals of psychology, legal precedents in the uk etc that might be helpful to me (or anyone else in this situation) please post them here :(

There is nothing you can do about him introducing ow I'm afraid, apart from ask

Same with overnights for toddler. Lots of us have had to juggle half the time with other parent and travel cots.

But it's nothing to do with his family, what does the ex want?

he hasn't even been in touch by text to ask after the pregnancy or our son so far.

If you breastfeeding it makes it more difficult for him to insist on overnights, which would be ridiculous

It's also not a great idea for contact to be in your own home.

actually, he sent one text - to justify being with the OW and to say DS will 'be fine without him'

so, no idea really. It may be that I actually want him more involved with them than he is willing to be.

A relevant factor is that I will be relocating with the kids a 3.5 hour drive from where we have been living as a couple. This is to be close to my parents, and will be within a 30 minute drive of both XH's mum and sister, who are both willing to accommodate him and support visits at their homes if he doesn't want to come to mine. I get on fine with them so I'm happy for the kids to be in regular contact with them.

I think his family are fearful they will lose contact actually, but I have no intention of stripping my kids of half their family just because XH can't keep it in his trousers :(

As far as the new baby is concerned, obviously exclusive breastfeeding is the easiest way to argue that baby should not be separated from you for more than a few hours and not overnight. With bottle feeding, it is important for long term mental health development that baby has as few people as possible involved in regular feeding, preferably one main carer (usually mother) and one other person (usually father or grandparent) so you could specify that OW is not involved in feeding or nappy changing for these reasons. Hard to enforce though as many babies are fed by others in nursery, creche or by family baby sitting.

Having Ex visit your home can be quite stressful for both of you as you have to watch him and welcome him in your space and he has to be a guest in your home. It can work though, my ex used to pick up our DS from nursery and bring him home, sometimes putting him to bed from the age of about 2-3. It worked for me because it allowed me to work normal hours and re-establish my career, also ex was on long term sick for a lot of the time. It broke down when ex returned to work and was unable to commit to any regular nursery pick up arrangement. I have to say, I was greatly relieved to have him out of my home but it did mean that DS saw much less of him.

My Ex left me and DS for OW about 7months ago. I have been very lucky in that he has always had DS's best interests at heart and has agreed with everything I have asked for. Ex see's DS about 3times a week, 2 of those times in my home. It works well for us as we have been able to stay civil and i feel that it is what works best for my DS. From your OP it is clear you want what is best for your DC and are willing to put your own feelings aside which is great and IMO really important. My DS was about 14months when we split for the first month or so I felt it was very imortant DS had some stability in his life and overnight stays weren't going to be good for his security.

After this month I had to return to work and as I work nights DS had to stay with Ex overnight. DS has coped with well with this and I find that chatting to him about the fun he will have and who he will see ( g'ma, g'dad and doggies!) helps to prepare him for the visit and in the future I hope he will see that I certainly don't begrudge him for seeing Daddy or for having a good, strong relationship with him. At one point we upped overnight stays to twice a week but DS became very unsettled Ex could see this change in behaviour and agreed to go back down to one overnight stay.

In terms of the OW DS has not yet meet her. I approached this with what I felt was best for DS. He has been through an awful lot and was very clingy with daddy whenever he saw him. I explained that I felt it was because he was insecure about the fact that Daddy might not come back and Ex needed to work on building a new reltionship with DS and helping him feel safe and secure before introducing him to OW. I know that they will have to meet eventually but feel the introduction will not really benefit DS in any way and Not meeting her will also not affect his life so what is the point in rushing things?

Keep strong, bite you tongue many times! and never feel under pressure from any one else. This is about your DC and what is best for them not about what is best for anyone else including your Ex.

Definitely exclusively breast feed baby not just to stop overnights, but will help you feel good. Why don,t you do a plan for bit until baby is born. Talk to your parents and also ex's if you can to get help and support? You could say to them that you will need some help come the summer ie them taking toddler out. Get them to commit and then ex can slot in depending on how keen he is. He can then come and help his family out and presumably might all be a bit much for the other woman to take in at once

Listen to you all! Advising to exclusively breast feed to stop overnight contact with the father!? Its a perfectly valid choice to exclusively breast feed and there are many reasons why it might not be in a newborns best interest not to have overnight visits initially but your decisions op have to be purely based on what is in your childrens best interests not your interests or your exs. This advice sounds like making decisions to stop contact in the ops interests rather than the childs and is a bad place to start.

I think from your post that putting your children first is actually exactly what you are trying to do. You bravely state that overnight/long day contact makes you feel sick with anxiety and you are aware of how difficult it is to separate your feelings for your ex with what is best for your children and I think you are doing well in a horrible position. The anxiety about your children spending time away from you is something that you will have to face at some point though for their sakes but perhaps explaining how you feel to your ex might allow you to both have some constructive discussion about it? The fact you're aware of those issues despite the hurt you must feel puts you in a great starting position for doing the best for your children. Please don't put things off on a bad start with your children's father so you end up with long battles and misunderstandings as there is no question that continued conflict is the thing that psychological causes most harm to children of separated parents. (Will try to find some references after dinner!)

Legally, I think he would be unlikely to get overnight contact for the newborn but highly likely to for the toddler. Why don't you try mediation to try to sort out an initial pattern? Evidence shows both parents tend to end up with an outcome they are both happier with via this route and it might get good communication and shared parenting off to a good start between you? You don't have to agree to anything you're not comfortable with in these sessions but you might find it helps a lot of worries. Try not to worry too much about others putting pressure on you to decide - its only you and him that really count in making decisions for your children.

Good luck!

thank you. To be honest, I'm not interested in trying to keep him away from them - I'm upset right now because he has shown no interest in our son at all so far since the split. I don't want my children to be denied half their family. As for exclusively breastfeeding, I know there are good reasons for baby to be breastfed, but I also know that forcing myself to maintain something so demanding without the possibility of someone giving a bottle here and there might be more detrimental to me and my toddler anyway. I won't make any decisions on that front that are solely about keeping their dad away :(

I've found lots of information myself now (for those who are interested, this link is especially good: answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/754914.html although the references may be out of date, so I'm looking for more recent ones.)

In an ideal world I would like regular, short contact with both kids. And I'm not going to prevent overnights for my toddler. I only want to argue that he remain within an hour of me, just for the time being, until both my XH and I are much more settled and secure in our respective homes, so that DS in turn can feel settled, safe and secure there too. There are plenty of options for XH to stay with his own family very close by. If XH doesn't show any interest in coming for visits tbh it gets less and less relevant whether he wants overnights. No court in the land is going to give overnights for a baby and child under 3 to a parent they have barely any relationship with.

In the end, the children's right to their father is only part of the story. Their right to security, to form strong attachments to their primary carer (me) that they can depend on, and to feel safe and confident in a predictable, normal home environment is just as important. XH's rights to see them comes a long way down the list underneath their right to security and to see him - and do not trump his responsibility to give them what they need. He'll have a job to prove a disruptive long journey and long times away from me are in their best interests when I will bend over backwards to enable him to see them in their own environment while they are tiny.

I have to keep an open mind I know, and I am still very raw and hurt by his treatment of me. I refuse to be pushed into making such incredibly important decisions about their lives now. There is plenty of time to decide what is in their best interests... and until he actually shows that he has even considered wanting to see them, I think I need to actually stop panicking and trust that somehow we'll all get through this.

It is utterly fucking shit and awful though and it is breaking my heart every day having to think about him and them in these terms. I still loved him, right up until I discovered what he's been doing. I don't understand it. I feel so disposable, and so fucking sad for our kids that he seems to think they are disposable too. When did having a family become something that you bin like last seasons clothes? I wish I could rewind our life and stop this from happening but I know I am totally powerless to change anything about what he's done. And that just hurts so badly.

great reply awingandaprayer. op lots of women on here are thinking of their own agendas first and foremost. I was gobsmacked at advice to exclusively breastfeed to keep baby away away from father for extended periods- and it isn't the first time i've read that on MN. I can't add to the great words awingandaprayer has written but will add that I brestfed my baby very successfully for 16 months. I expressed milk in the early days so Dad could feed his child also from time to time (we were still together and i wanted him to be involved in feeding so he did the odd day time feed) , and eventually when we started going out again in the evening my Mum also fed the baby. When feeding was well established i used the odd ready made formula carton instead of expressing milk which was time consuming to do. I did not feel worse about myself for doing so!! and breastfeeding did not suffer by doing things in this way.
You sound like a lovely person and a great Mum and i am sorry you're having to go through this right now . I'd personally try to get him to have contact not in your home but in his family's who you say will live nearby.

also thank you everyone for your comments, I don't think people are trying to encourage me to keep XH away. Its just an unbelievably difficult situation all round and other peoples experience is always helpful to know about, so I appreciate all the replies.

From my experience - Split with my ex when DD was 3 months and exclusively breastfed - initially he came round and saw her a couple of times in the week - took her (and DS, who was almost 4) out for a couple of hours one time, and babysat for me one evening a week whilst I went out. It is probably best for everyone in the long run if you try to avoid contact being in your home, though no harm in that in the early stages if you're happy with it and it's not causing too much tension.

My ex had DS over for the odd overnight early one, but started having them both one night a week when DD was about 8 months old. She was fine with this and got used to both homes OK. I was doing a mix of breast and bottle by then but the breastfeeding soon collapsed once I started having a night away from her (plus bits an pieces in the day by then as I was returning to work) - as I wasn't feeding her regularly enough to keep supply up. Not really a problem at 8 months though.

You can't stop your ex introducing your DCs to his new woman. You can request it, but it really is up to your ex when he does this. I think you're on thin ice to try and say it's good for babies not to have more than one/two people feeding them or some such arguement.

But, in the long run, if you do move so far away from him, he could if he wants push to have them for a whole weekend at a time. He may eventually want to do this. But sounds like the ball's in your court for now, so fine to suggest contact for shorter periods of time at times that would help you out and take it from there. Try suggesting something that gives you a chance to pick up some social opportunities, or at least get some shopping done without kids in tow.

( playing the devils advocate )

XH's rights to see them comes a long way down the list

I'm sorry but firstly it's about your children's right to see their father. You may think this is a long way down the list, that it's better to minimise any disruption, but take that attitude with your XH and I'd almost guarantee you'll end up in court, because you're XH will know, or will be advised, that a court will see things differently. For better or worse.

If he thinks you're being obstructive in relation to what he thinks a court will grant I'd guess he'll stand his ground. And as lacking as he sounds, and as hurt as you may be, getting on with him in the long run and avoiding court will be far better for you and your dc in the long run.

I think you need to be mindful of not appearing as if you're dictating the arrangement. Not because I think you're wrong, but because I think it'll heighten the chance of things getting nasty. Your XH will likely have spoken to a solicitor already, and it's worth keeping in mind that your XH may feel that he has a strong position if he doesn't agree with you over access .

You need to find out what he thinks is reasonable. What his expectations are. Do you know this yet ? Not to just agree with them, but to start negotiating from that point.

If you try and stress that a 350 mile will be too disruptive he may well argue that it was your decision to move. It may be for very good reasons, but your XH will likely see you as the one who's caused a need for the children to have to travel so much.

I understand how hurt you must feel, but if he and his family are asking about contact now, and wanting an agreement they obviously aren't going to fade away or simply accept your stance that contact with the father isn't very important compared to stability.

I only say this because my XP argued the same points. That any over nights with dd who was two, would be too disruptive, that contact with me / dad was way down the list in terms of dd's daily life, that all contact should be around / in XP's home and that dd would somehow be damaged by the experience and upheaval. In fact dd took it all in her stride very well.

And being told how and when I could see my own daughter felt like I was being dictated to. I had to keep reminding my XP that I was dd's dad.

Obviously you've been hurt badly. Your XH sounds like he's lacking moral fibre. Sadly in these situations it is far from ideal.

Thing is, the man doesn't seem to be bothered at all, it's his family who are agitating for lots of contact. My advice OP would be to reassure the family that they will be able to see DCs and that as to XH you and he will try to reach an amicable agreement but for that to happen he needs to get off his arse and talk to you.

You will have a job curtailing his contact time to remaining in an environment that YOU approve of op!!

He will be able to take the dc where he likes within jurisdiction..... You won't have a say in it! I think you need to realise that the courts ( if you get that far) won't pander to all these little clauses you are trying to make.

He will either be given contact or he won't.

You seem to be very sensible and I would have no problem arguing your points in court.

Basic rule of thumb, unless a parent has had lots of recent hands on contact, courts are likely to accept need to move slowly with regard to overnights when children are too young to talk. The non res parent needs to take time to get to know child and routine so best to move it along at not too quick a pace.

You cant set limits on who else he sees during contact unless there are clear issues about the safety of that person, criminal convictions, drug issues? But contact is supposed to be about his relationship with child so courts won't be impressed if he is getting some one else to do majority of care whilst he is supposed to be seeing them.

There is acres of research about psychological need for children to grow up with positive image of their birth parents, but equally loads of stuff about the really serious consequences of parental conflict upon child development when parents are in conflict.

Provided you can reassure court you are willingto promote contact, in my experience the judges will be sympathetic of need for a mother in your position with such young children, to take it at a slow pace, allowing you all to feel confident. I would not have thought overnights were feasible for many months yet.

dont ahve himm in your new home will only confuse toddler and eventually newborn.

use the XH's mum and sister, who are both willing to accommodate him and support visits at their homes for contact near you.

cant see any reason why toddler should not be going overnight with his father.

as I've said several times in my posts, I do not have a problem with him having DS for overnights, nor do I want to obstruct access to their father. I am doing my level best not to put my feelings at the forefront but to put the needs of two very tiny children (one not even born yet) as the main priority, and as has been pointed out by other posters - so far XH has not been in contact AT ALL. So I seriously doubt he will be seeking advice from a solicitor himself at this point. If he is, then clearly I am willing to listen to what he wants and discuss both our expectations. My experience of him as a person is that he doesn't expect anything. If it's not on a plate for him, he puts zero effort into anything. Time will tell in this case if that is how he will behave.

Again, thank you all for all the advice.

I think you are doing absolutely right thing in setting up clear boundaries from the start. He can't just dip in and out of their lives when it suits him.

O btw if you want case law Family Law Week is a good resource. But there is very little law of substance in such cases. It is a general presumpion that children should have relationship with both parents but the children's welfare comes first, not wishes of parents.

If he's the kind of person you think he is, then sounds like you don't need to worry about court, rights or anything like that. You're biggest concern is probably going to be ensuring that he does actually keep up contact, especially if you move away and leave him to do all the travelling.

But it's great his relatives are keen to be involved. Just put forward a suggestion to them and your ex to see the DCs regularly and without overnights for the first year or so, and see how they take it. At the moment they haven't asked for anything more, and what they want from you most of all is probably reassurance that they'll remain a part of their grandchildren's lives and that you're not going to obstruct access for their son.

If you know he's a lazy and wants things on a plate for him and you've moved a 3 1/2 hour drive away I would have thought that is going to pretty much end his involvement anyway, isn't it?

oh for heavens sake you surely can't be suggesting that staying in a city where me and the babies have no support other than the XH who has just left us, is preferable to moving close to BOTH his and my family? It's hardly ending his involvement in their lives. As far as I'm aware he is the only person responsible for maintaining their relationship. I'm not going to start choosing our home arrangements just so he can stay close to OW as well as the kids. Get real.

A lazy, selfish man will stop bothering with contact even if his XW and DC live next door, if he has something more interesting to himself to do. And the OP has moved near both sets of grandparents, not just to her own family.

Give him the opportunities, if he doesn't take them up, offer to exIL as well. If he is as lazy as you say, he will quickly loose interest, why should DC and exIL miss out because of him? Moving closer to both families sounds a good plan.
My DS sees his GP's fairly regularly, but hasn't seen his Dad for 12 years, and he lives closer.
My other ExP lives next door - literally. He does see DD's regularly, but I suspect if it wasn't so convenient it would tail off in time, his eldest DD he didn't see at all from 6months, except for a brief period which she initiated when she was 12. After about 8 months it all became a bit of a hassle and too expensive because of the travelling..... She is now 20.
my best friends bloke has 2 DC's who live in Germany. He either flies them here or goes there to stay 3-4 times a year. He is not well off, but he pays for it and takes the time out to spend time with them. They phone each other and email regularly.
distance has nothing to do with how good a parent you are, even if it makes the practical stuff difficult.