Split from Narcissistic husband:4 kids: How do we do contact???

[joruth]

Hi, My husband probably has Narcissistic Personality disorder, he has been Emotionally and verbally abusive to me and kids (10,8,6,5) occasionally physical violence to me and lots of throwing stuff, acting out, disappearing for hours/days etc, shouting and unreasonable expectations. He was really damaging kids esp oldest 2. I made him leave 6 weeks ago thinking he might be able to behave for short bursts with the kids in contact. BUT all his "good" points that used to make him look ok to outsiders seem to have gone. He is manipulating and distressing the children (and me).

I need to sort out a contact agreement, don't want him to have them overnight, need to be fair but want to protect my children. In despair. someone tell me how to keep this boat afloat please!

I should mention that he is not practical and although is protective of his time with them actually does not enjoy it as far as I can see (they mostly don't either).

Hi,

Firstly just remember they are also his kids too. And should not be used as a commodity or weapon.

Narcisistic personality disorder? Unfortunately I don't believe you are qualified to make that diagnosis. As long as he proves himself capable of handling overnight contact why should you keep his children from him?

Either way I sense that this won't be easy for the children and this break may result in court hearings for contact. Already its an all too familiar story. Split, spouse a has issues with spouse b, spouse a not trusting of spouse b, wants to stop overnight contact... Spouse b kicks off bout being denied child's right to have relationship with spouse b because of spouse a... Spouse b either gets pushed out or initiates court action... Spouse a resorts to other tactics.

This is text book

Note I offer mediation and advice on behalf of family courts up and down the UK. I've heard this story in about 50% of the mediation and 90% of court issued proceedings

how often does he see them, is it the standard every other week-end and one night in the week?

Well, didn't expect quite such a full on slap in the face, thanks very much riakin hope you let your clients give you some background and reasons for their information before you hit them with the "everyone says that story???"

I was directed to mumsnet as a place where realistic, supportive and helpful advice might be offered, not just the standard..."You are clearly a witch who does not want a father to see his children"

Also you have no idea where that diagnosis came from, or do you know his Psychiatrist/social worker????

For your information this loving father has not initiated any contact with his beloved children. I have arranged it all after he failed to. he spends most of his contact time sniping and scoring points off me...very good use of contact time... to the extent that I have to absent myself from my own home. I have invited him into my space for contact as he finds it difficult to have them where he is staying at present. I have arranged for him to have 2 week days after school and Saturday. He says this is the bare minimum...fair enough but he will not let them have social events (birthdays, friends for tea etc.), do homework,or any other functional thing in his time, he does not feed them but expects food to be provided. he leaves on Saturday afternoon, not because he is not "allowed" to stay but because the football is on so he does not even use all the contact time he is offered. his work is irregular and sometimes includes weekends. When he is away for a normal day i try to swap where I can but not always, remembering all social events, homework and dentists etc. have to be done by me...not because i won't let him but because he won't do it. he does not WANT overnight care (frankly it would be easier for me if he did have them for longer somewhere else)

So Riakin with your excellent knowledge and experience rather than kicking me in the teeth when i am REALLY TRYING to get this sod father to SEE his children would you like to give some advice now rather than slag me off.

I have no intention of taking this to court unless he refuses to do anything else, I have removed us from his daily presence to protect my children who are being emotionally and verbally abused. If we do end up in court he will probably get every other weekend and one day as above, inflexible for his work and impractical as he does not want overnight.

Go read your text book again and realise that some people asking for help are really asking for help not sniping and back-biting with their truly loving other half.

I'm off and name-changing. Won't bother you again.

OP, do you have a family mediation service in your area? Sometimes there are leaflets in a children's centre or local library, maybe the doctors? Or Citizens Advice may be able to tell you if there is something similar.

Anyway they are a free service to help to agree contact that works for everyone rather than an order being dictated by the courts.

This sounds very stressful for you especially if he is not feeding them or doing homework. Might be worth a try rather than trying to sort this on your own.

By the way, thanks not such as you can see 2 weekdays and 1 Saturday every week is what is happening, with extras for birthdays/special events.

sorry for the rant above...it's just i have spent 17 years trying so hard to make an abusive relationship work and only saw that i couldn't when other agncies got involved.

I hate being told that i am just another bitter person using the children to get at their spouse, I work very hard at telling the kids they are allowed to love and miss their Dad and that we are all sad. i conscientiously don't slag him off to them , I try not to say much at all but to respond to them as well as I can. he has told them to wear me down by crying and begging me to let him come back when they go to bed...the youngest one is confused and upset and doing what he asks but hates to see me upset (I try not to be but I am not superhuman)...the others have told me (separately ) that this is what he says to them when he leaves in the evenings.

If I had left him to his own devices he might not have seen them at all. In what way does this make me a bad person????

Xpost thanks A

Wow, Riakin, unsupportive much? Mediation and advice, huh?

Joruth, this must be so hard for you and children - but I guess living with him wasn't a barrel of laughs either, so it can only improve from here!

Where is he living, that he can't have them there? Is there a contact centre that can be arranged, if he is seeing a social worker this may be a possibility through them, if you say you are no longer willing to have contact at your home? Or a friend you trust, or family? Is he planning on moving soon to somewhere suitable for them to go to?

Hi Joruth, tell Riakin to fuck off. She is obviously not very good at her job, is she?

I have had similar problems to you and my kids are old enough now to make their own mind up as to whether or not they see him.

A social worker reminded me occasionally that contact is only for the sake of the child and if it is not positive for the child it shouldn't happen.

You are not a bad person remember that! xx

Unless he's a danger to the children he'll get overnight stays. I mean he's either ok to have them or he isn't.

If he has a diagnosed mental health problem I suppose that could help your case.

I would say you need to get some advice, if your ex has a diagnosed personality disorder then a voluntary agreement is likely to be hard to stick to. Perhaps you need to get something more solid in place.

If you have genuine concerns about his history of emotional abuse, and if he has a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder, then you have to push for what you truly believe is right for the kids.

If he isn't doing basic things like providing food or allowing them to do social activities etc then that is a big issue. I would not waste time trying to get him to see the kids if he gives up his contact time, it is your responsibility to enable a relationship but not your job to make it happen - whatever the norm, there are some people who are not able to commit to their kids, who are not able to put their kids first.

I would stop having the contact at your house, he would be better at a contact centre or other neutral location surely? You need a bit of distance and you don't need all the emotional scenes going on in your house.

This all sounds very hard for you all, but if you are dealing with a person with a diagnosed personality disorder then it may not be possible to do things nicely or informally.

Eek, what a shocker of a post from riakin. Agree completely unhelpful and unsympathetic - can she be for real? The question is - what contact is he actually seeking anyhow? If he's "impractical", is he up to hAving them at night anyhow? And is he aware of this?

he is currently staying with some of his family. i see no reason that the DCs couldn't go there but it's not his house and he may feel uncomfortable asking.. ..or he may have asked and been told no....or he may just want to come and put his feet back under my table and be looked after....(wouldn't want to appear judgemental or anything ).

perhaps I need a social worker as well...maybe then i could initiate the contact centre..basically he is getting the support, I am paddling my own canoe. You're right a personality disorder does not make it easy to do agreements BUT he is high functioning , high flying job, no-one immediately on his back about stuff, so long as he is in charge he does good in the business arena. it's where other people need to have a voice and a presence that he struggles

I think you need to get some legal advice asap. You might qualify for legal aid. He may not even ask for overnights initially.

One thing you'll learn about this forum is that if Riakin answers your post, just ignore him - he's got his own agenda.

Sq as far as I can tell he does not want overnight (which I am happy about as he has never, ever got up to anyone in the night without being very very angry at them (even if they've been sick or nightmare)), does not want to do food and does not want to organise social stuff with friends.

I should say that when on form he can be great fun with the kids, active energetic and engaged...he just seldom manages it "on demand" he has to be feeling it to do it. I wish he would use his contact time to do fun stuff with the DCs and let them see him at his best, rather than landing them with all these conflicting emotions.

What the hell? Surely it's fairly believable that in 50% of mediation cases and 90% of court issued proceedings there has been violence in the relationship, since that's what people in those situations are advised to do?

OP if there has been violence in the relationship I strongly advise you seek legal advice. You can call Women's Aid for advice on this issue as well, they have experience and have helped many women in your situation, they are not just there to support women who want to leave. They might be able to help you find an experienced and understanding solicitor, as well, so maybe they should even be the first port of call.

Ahh Mrscolour didn't know there were people like that on here. Thanks...what's got his goat about people wanting proper advice to do things well and fairly (for DCs and us)?
Surely if you have a bee in your bonnet about fathers rights or something the cause would be better served by giving some good and fair advice (even if in my case it was wrong??)

thx bertie I think i need the professionals too...will call WA in am for some help.

Riakin, you are the epitome of the family courts' tendency to assume that any difficulties with regard to contact are down to the "vengeful mother" stereotype. IME (ten years' family law) most mothers are desperate for their children to have a relationship with their father but not at the expense of their children's security and happiness.

I think it's time for a career change for you.

Riakin, what a very worrying post. I do hope you are not so judgemental and assuming in your involvement with your clients!

Hi again all,

Yes, complete shocker i know.

What qualities made you want to have children with this man who:

• Doesn't care about his children
• Didn't care about you (seemingly)
• Wants to use his children for point scoring
• Is self centred

What support if any is he providing to you now?

Im always amazed at the attitude in most cases from Mums after a split when it comes to their now ex-partner. They refuse to allow them overnight contact... are you honestly telling me that in 10years (since your eldest has been born) that he has never had them overnight?

While i honestly do sympathize with your position and particularly for your children... i can't help but think why do women on here go out with this type of person? And more... have 4 children with them?

Most men i speak to normally start the denial process fairly early on, then admit... women generally defend their views much longer than men, move to the denial process and finally admit. Men are usually most likely to get shirty in mediation, women are much more likely to cry. Its the men are from mars women are from venus approach.

One such approach used in Mediation is what are you actually doing to help the situation? Is there any real reason why you are not now allowing him to have overnight contact? Mediation is a good first step regardless...

An example... couple married for 7years, 1 child from the marriage aged 6... separated for one year and overnight contact still being refused. Interesting note: mother worked night shifts, so Dad had care overnight. 3years of night shifts, Mums had enough, doesn't feel the closeness, feels love has died etc, has an affair... or 3

Fast forward to present day... mother battling through courts to stop overnight Contact under the basis he is unsuitable... different reason given on each of the 3 appearances at Court, never put children to bed, children not having their own room at Dads mothers, Mum not happy to let contact happen until child reaches 8 etc... final hearing crops up... position statements submitted... me ready to go... meet with Dad, meet with Barrister of the respondent... "message Mr Sanders... Mrs Bloggs won't be attending... she feels unable to be in a room with Dad because he is violent/has aggressive [read: Narcissistic] behaviour towards her and the children"... ???... Court sets intervention hearing to substantiate.

Another thing to bear in mind that when you eldest reaches 12... Courts will take their choice as to whether contact happens.

Again... sorry for being so blunt. This is a supportive site it really is... just i am curious. And for what its worth i'm a guy. And like i always say i'm on both sides... especially the childs :)

Zoo keeper... if you've only got 10years family courts i'd keep that to yourself if you know what or where i'm going :-|

thanks Bertie :)

Your beginning to actually sound like some male clients... until they come down off their high horse

you've lost me, pet

Hi Joruth.

So sorry to hear about your difficulties. You sound as though you are doing your best in very difficult and painful circumstances.

Ignore Riakin. What a terrible post.

I can only speak from my own, similar experience, with my exH. Split 8 yrs ago. He pretended to others that he cared about our 3 children; reality was he cared about himself, and about finances. I had to spend years behaving very, very carefully towards him in order to not do anything that he could use as an excuse not to see the kids. He used them as pawns in a vile form of revenge towards me. Appalling. Yet I felt I ought to promote and support them having a relationship with him.

However, I wish I'd followed my instincts, namely, that he was a selfish man, obsessed with revenge towards me for our break up, and not to be trusted with taking care of the children properly. If your ex was not the father of your children, would you entrust them into his care? (In my case, the answer was no, yet I kept trying to persuade him to keep seeing them so that they didn't grow up without him. Big mistake.)

I didn't realise til last couple of years how awful he really was, when older 2 children have told me about their access visits: ignoring them during contact visits, making them responsible for care of their much younger brother, leaving them alone for hours in hotel/motel rooms when they didn't 'behave', did no homework, etc etc. Burdened them with full details of the divorce, financial, emotional, when they couldn't cope with such details. They didn't tell me at the time because they didn't want to 'upset me' - how heartbreaking is that?

During last 2 years I have been to family therapy sessions with both the older 2, now in late teens. This has been invaluable to all of us, and is starting to repair some of the damage done to them. Now they are older (very late teens) they both refuse to see him.

Yet on the surface he looks caring, professional, nice man. How appearances can deceive!

Maybe this is not helpful. I'm trying to say, follow your instincts, and look for help and support from good professionals. I'd include family therapy, or counselling via gp, among these professionals.

And avoid people like Riakin!!