Split from Narcissistic husband:4 kids: How do we do contact???

[joruth]

Hi, My husband probably has Narcissistic Personality disorder, he has been Emotionally and verbally abusive to me and kids (10,8,6,5) occasionally physical violence to me and lots of throwing stuff, acting out, disappearing for hours/days etc, shouting and unreasonable expectations. He was really damaging kids esp oldest 2. I made him leave 6 weeks ago thinking he might be able to behave for short bursts with the kids in contact. BUT all his "good" points that used to make him look ok to outsiders seem to have gone. He is manipulating and distressing the children (and me).

I need to sort out a contact agreement, don't want him to have them overnight, need to be fair but want to protect my children. In despair. someone tell me how to keep this boat afloat please!

I should mention that he is not practical and although is protective of his time with them actually does not enjoy it as far as I can see (they mostly don't either).

Oh, and like you, Joruth, I had to 'persuade' my ex to have the kids. This is the opposite of the examples Riakin seems to be giving: I never refused access to my ex, and he used my desperation to keep him in contact with our children - for their sake, definitely not for my sake - as a sort of weapon against me, and the children. Does this make sense?

It was sort of the opposite of what organisations like Fathers for Justice claim happens: he wasn't fighting to see the kids. He wanted to force me to make all the effort to 'persuade' him to see them. Now they're older they see through his awful games, and won't play any more - and they have both chosen not to see him. But my children have been damaged in the process, and find it very hard to trust people sometimes, and tend towards deep cynicism in their relationships.

I feel I have failed them

I don't think the OP is being awkward here, but I do find this MN belief that some women don't make contact difficult a bit baffling.

I've seen bad behaviour from men and women, and it's probably pretty even.

What bollocks. I've no idea what other mumsnetters believe; I can only talk from my own experience of dealing with hundreds of cases in and outside courts.

And all divorces go to court?

I know hardly anyone who went through the courts about contact.

dingdong I can assure you I am not expounding any 'MN belief' about divorce, what a strange thing to suggest.

My posts are written with my own experiences in mind, trying to offer some support, and what little advice I can, to an OP whose situation has similarities with mine. My exH made contact very difficult, I didn't. That was my situation. The aftermath has been awful for my children.

I know plenty of people, men and women, who have had completely different experiences of divorce, but I can only really refer to my divorce in my reply to OP because this is the only divorce I know about inside out. Surely that's the case for most people on this forum?

Of course some women make contact difficult. But some men are abusive and contact is difficult because of this, and this in my experience is what people tend to disbelieve, at least outside of mumsnet.

I don't understand the point you're making, Dingdong. I agree hardly any divorce cases end up in court. Plenty of contact ones do though. Not sure what you mean.

Dear Joruth,
hope you can let the hijackers wash over you. Each situation is different, each half of the couple is different. One constant is children's interests in having a relationship with both their parents. A court cannot force the NRP to have contact with the children and as long as they are physically safe cannot set out what NRP does with them in contact time ie take them to parties, engage with social life.
What you can do is work out what you think works best for you and the DCs, ie what days, where. What a court can do is order that you make the DCs available for contact and impose sanctions if you don't. If he doesn't turn up all it does is stop him asking for more in the future.
So while he sounds like an utter arse, you can be powerful in this situation. Stop contact in your house, don't provide food, arrange DCs social events for days he is not in the picture. So draw up what you think would work ie the two post school days and why not do alternate saturdays/sundays - which should mean that they will be able to attend some social stuff.
Write it down for him and keep copies. Make sure the DCs are available. If he doesn't like it, he can unfortunately take you to court and will probably get every other weekend and a day in the week as that seems the usual at the moment. You can suggest mediation, but if he has other issues then it possibly won't work. If it comes to court, you will both be told and it can be as detailed as the court thinks useful. The DCs basically have to go. He may be rubbish, but they will have to deal with it. Set your boundaries and don't worry about his issues/shifts/where he lives. His problem he needs to deal with. Sounds like you will be the rock on which their stability depends, not him. Good luck

Thanks for all the helpfull posts. Seems I kicked a hornets nest! i had no idea that there were so may people with agendas out there.

For the record: just because you see other mothers behave badly does not mean that I am, just because you see other fathers behave well does not mean he is.

What qualities made you want to have children with this man?
I suspect i could spend a lot of money on counselling working this out. he has a great exterior..perhaps you should read some of the stuff on why women (and sometimes men) stay with abusive partners??

What support if any is he providing to you now? No financial support, no physical support, no emotional support.

They refuse to allow them overnight contact... are you honestly telling me that in 10years that he has never had them overnight? Yup he has never looked after our children for a single night, he has seldom looked after them on his own for more than an hour or 2. When i have occasionally gone out in the evening after putting them to bed he has often phoned me to return if one of the children woke up!! He once had them from 10am until 4.30pm on a Saturday. And i reiterate...he does not want to have them overnight. he leaves his day on Saturday early to listen/watch the football. he could have them until they've gone to bed!!

Men are usually most likely to get shirty in mediation, women are much more likely to cry. Its the men are from mars women are from venus approach So ??????

One such approach used in Mediation is what are you actually doing to help the situation? Actually as i said, I have organised contact, given up "my" space to facilitate it, arranged food for his time and offered to reschedule things when his erratic work patterns have interrupted contact pattern. WHAT ELSE SHOULD I BE DOING??

Is there any real reason why you are not now allowing him to have overnight contact? What apart from he does not want it, has no home to have it in as is staying with relatives and he leaves his children early on saturday afternoon so he can watch the match...am i supposed to babysit for him whilst the football is on, then give them back, then come and look after them so he can go and watch match of the day then go to a hotel so he can stay overnight in my home???

Courts will take their choice as to whether contact happens. HOORAY I can't wait, oldest 2 are very difficult to get to see their father. though they might keep going for the sake of the little ones

Again... sorry for being so blunt not blunt, you haven't listened when i have answered your points. I would call that blinkered.

Don't let that idiot put you off mediation. I had mediation and the two women who did this were sharp and helpful. I wouldn't have got the settlement I got without mediation. My ex too never pays a penny, never has and never will. Never looked after them for long without causing trouble and never fed them etc. I would never allow him to look after them overnight and he accepts that as he knows he has been foul with them and they are nervous around him. xx

Riakin...yep you are a man ! Shines out in your arrogance !

What I suggest is that this clearly unbalanced self-important and rather immature person, whose motivation for coming onto a single parents' thread on mumsnet has to be questionable, is put on extinction, in the phraseology of Applied Behavioural Analysis, which means totally ignored.
I understand everything you're saying so well, joruth, and there's no need for someone as stressed and exhausted as you are in your position to waste time answering him. You don't need to convince him of anything - he's irrelevant and hopefully will go away so you can get on with sorting out your situation in the best possible way that you can for your poor children.
My DS won't see his dad, has blocked him number from his phone, has hidden in the house with the door bolted when his arsehole narcissistic father was trying to get in because he's kept keys. DS is really angry and taking it all out on me, of course. I've gently said things like, your dad still cares about you, but it makes him worse.
You're doing a really really good job. I admire you and am amazed at how sane you sound.

sounds like my xh - who despite going on about the children being the most important thing in his life, doesn't actually appear to want to see them. I have to force him to see them on Sundays (and then he brings them back by 2) and he has turned down weekdays because "he can't commit to it". and he won't have them overnight either. grr.

and this from someone who I would have had down as the keenest dad around.

Sorry op no help to you, as I haven't found a solution yet...

court /judges can take the view that this is being an ex vengance type thing. so you need to be aware of that if it goes to court ie you need to rpesent hard facts/evidence - this means eg taking your DC to gp to record their stress and anguish etc. asking teachers for record of derioration in behaviour that is more than jsut reaction to the separation. etc

a written diagnosis from a psychiatrist holds weight - your views dont.
your description of his abuse doesnt carry much weight unless backed up- by witnesses or his admitting to it.

the first judge i had semed to realise that the incident for which exP was arrested, and what he admitted to, was "tip of the iceberg"; second judge - a lady - didnt read all the reports and really did seem to be on "here we go again with two exes having a stupid bitter contact argument" rather than reading the reports and recognizing there were serious issues going on.

op; it 's only been six weeks - it is early days - but good to set the boundaries in place.

no overnights -well fine.

he can't have them in his place - ? his problem to sort out. you should not have to give up your home to him. he can take kids out somewhere - ok maybe shorter contact time as they cant hang out for six hours in a cafe or at a movie - but tough.

decide with the older DC on what would work for them and put in writing the days/times/

keep a good record of contact offered and taken/not taken - and record DC behaviour or views afterwards.

after three to six months you will have a better idea of what is working /what is not - it is too soon after just six weeks tho you may already be getting a good idea of what might work longer term for the dc (and for you).

make all contact by email so you ahve a record. stay calm polite and factual in all your emails ie just talk about times/dates/places/school and health issues which are relevant.

if long many hours contact times arent working offer shorter times.

i mean all contact with him about all the contact issues by email.

or you could offer a mediation session - with a good mediator you might get some progress - but first you need ot know what are the issues - what is it that you offering that he not happy with ? and vice versa.

if he doesnt want overnight then it isnt a problem is it?

but it is early days.

work out something for xmas first and see how that goes. keep good records day to day of what contact there was how it went etc