Arrrggggh !!! My bonkers XP

[MrGin]

This is more of a rant than anything else.

I love my dd. I do all the right things as an NRP and more.

My XP has started making hand overs difficult by stringing them out as much as possible, hugs, kisses, more hugs, one last kiss, another hug etc etc she even got on the bus with us recently.

She's now come to the conclusion that dd isn't happy being with me. This despite only two weeks ago saying how happy dd was going to my house. If I didn't witness first hand dd being perfectly happy and anxiety free between pick up / drop off I would worry. As far as I'm concerned dd is happy, but XP has decided she's not and come to the conclusion dd is rejecting me. I've started ignoring pretty much everything XP says on the matter rather than arguing any points.

For the last three visits with me, dd , on getting ready to leave to go back to mums, has said ' don't want mummy, don't want mummy's house' . She's only 3 so my reading is that really what she means is that she's comfortable where she is and doesn't want to leave mine rather than not wanting mums iyswim. So I just carry on getting her ready and off we go. Not really an issue.

Apparently she's been saying the same to her mum when it's time to go to mine. But her mum rather than just getting on with getting her ready, is indulging her, giving her lots of attention and basically not getting her ready to leave. So when I turn up she's not dressed and is telling me she doesn't want daddy's house whilst her mum stands there smiling and agreeing with dd. When I say ' come on dd time to get dressed... isn't it mummy' . Mummy says nothing other than she's not going to make dd do something she doesn't want to do.

This happened last weekend. And literally within minutes of mum leaving the house to go to work, of her own accord dd was choosing a dress, putting her shoes on, choosing a toy to bring and leading me to my car with no problem at all. If she'd have shown any unhappiness leaving I would have changed direction and stayed at her mums.

My XP is somewhat of a control freak. She believes that dd shouldn't be staying with me at all ( except of course when her work takes her abroad and it's jolly convenient ) . And that I should only visit dd at her place. Basically making me a glorified child minder.

I'm seriously considering going to court and formalizing contact, which is the worst, worst scenario for dd but it's all starting to get very frustrating and despite a veneer of amicability I don't feel I can have a reasonable conversation with XP about all this. She just isn't reasonable. I can't work it out. It's like she can't accept that dd has a loving dad in her life. It's like she jealous or something.

Arrrghhhh !!!!!!

rant over. thanks for reading.

Sorry your having problem with your xp.

You are doing everything right with your DD. I think your a great dad and it sounds as if your xp is threaten by that. That "her" DD will like you more than her. It seems that she is turning it into a power strugle and placing your DD in the middle - she may not even know she is doing it.

Could you try getting XP on her own and discussing the issues and how you are bothing going to make it easier for your DD? I would try that first then if nothing came of it i would go to court as it is the only sure way of getting regular access.

Your XP needs to know that you are in it for the long run and you will always be DD Dad and have regular contact with her - weather or not your DD is happy with you or not, just like every other parent and child.

With controlling exs, the only thing that will work is seeking legal advice and a contact order through the courts. It needn't be a worst scenario for DD at all - my kids have NO idea about the games their dad plays behind the scenes and are oblivious to the fact that all this stuff is going on to ensure that their lives remain stable and consistent.

Next time DD is with you, maybe you should take a series of short video clips showing her happily playing, eating, chatting etc. And maybe if she does the 'don't want mummy' thing, film that too. Then show them to your ex to reassure her.

This all seems perfectly normal - my DCs often didn't want to go to nursery/kindergarten, then didn't want to leave when it was time to go; didn't want to go to a friend's house to play, then didn't want to go home etc. Your ex is just reading more into a normal behaviour pattern for this age group.

yeah. thanks both of you for reading my rant :)

I will definitely try talking first. It's just all so unnecessary.

Sometimes I feel like saying... go and spend a few days on Mumsnet and see how lucky you are that you have a decent XP who wants to do the right thing. Then I remember that I post on here and keep my mouth shut :o

I really would avoid court unless all other options have failed. It can make things very adversarial and it can all to easily end up being about who "wins" rather than what's best.

Could you suggest mediation? You might also want to give Families Need Fathers a call for some advice. They're a good bunch.

Court is really the very last , last thing I'd want to do. But mediation I think will get a mention soon.

Might give FNF a ring.

You are almost certainly correct about her saying "Don't want X" just because she's happy playing where she is rather than that she doesn't want to go at all. 3 year olds live very literally in the moment and aren't always able to understand that in the future they might feel differently to how they feel right now. I remember vividly never wanting to get into the bath and then feeling just as strongly that I didn't want to get out!

I'm wondering if you could mention this in a somehow innocent sounding way as though you're completely unaware of how she is overreacting but you get to point it out without accusing her of overreacting, or something? I wonder if we could find you an article on the net which you could email to her saying "I've noticed DD has been doing this lately and I came across this which has made me feel very relieved!" and then joke about something she was saying she didn't want to do which obviously she did actually want to do (I mean, DS can insist that he doesn't like ice cream if he's fixated on having cereal for dinner or something.)

Ironically this w/e the issue of how to travel with dd came up. XP wanted me to drive with her for her own reasons. I asked dd for the hell of it if she wanted car or train. She said train. I mentioned this to XP and she said 'well you shouldn't ask her about it, just put her in the car and go'

There are quite a lot of double standards going on.

But that is a good suggestion BertieBotts . I'm trying to find a good way to deal with the issues other than have a fight.

Ask XP if DD feels/said the same thing about going to nursary or out with grandparents?

I bet she does, same as my son but once there he loves it. XP is making it a bigger deal than it is cos its "Her XP".

Personaly i would not do the video thing unless i had asked XP before hand if she would like to see what her DD is like when with you and suggest you could video her.

Also do you tell XP about what her DD gets up to when with you - what food she had, what she played with, where you took her, what time she went to sleep? It might help reassure xp that her DD is being well cared for and is having fun when with you. Not knowing what your child is up to is very disconsurting as an over protective mother, so the more information she has the less she can panic about?

This may sound/be stupid but it might help to manage your XP behaiour and reaction to ensure contact with your DD. Talking to your XP about her concerns and worries may help you resolve them and make it better for your DD. Um easier said then done with some people i guess but worth a go anyway.

Also no dont tell her about mumsnet

It must be very hard to co-parent when not with the other parent and i think you are doing a great job, i'm really impressed and wish more NRF were like you. I hope it all gets sorted out and that it gets easier for you and your DD.

Cheeptrick, yes I do tell her all about what we get up to when dd is at mine. What time she goes to bed, if she woke up, what she had for lunch etc.

I promised her that dd is absolutely fine when at mine. Happy and content. I occasionally send her the odd picture of us both out and about with dd looking v happy.

In that case i think your XP is inscure (sp?) about you having a better relationship with DD than her.

I would tell XP that you are DD dad and that XP needs to be on board with DD going with you the same as if she was going to nursary or out with GP's. The Mother needs to be happy and posative about what is happening to reassure the child - anything else is emotional blackmail to me.

I think she should count herself lucky that her DD has such a careing and attentive Father. not every child gets that.

Toddlers can often behave differently with their main carer or one parent than the other- I found this with my first daughter even though her dad and I were together at the time, and I've read it in various books on development (e.g. toddlers tend to only tantrum with the main carer, not with other people, because of the level of attachment/seperation angst going on in their heads). Thus I don't think it's useful to blame your ex for your daughter being difficult about getting ready for her and not for you! Having said which, I think both of you are actually over-psychologising here, because as you say, a 3-year-old saying they want to stay where they are just means 'I want to keep on playing with my lego'- they say it just as much about going out to the shops etc. Really not sure that you need to go to court over this unless your ex actually tries to stop contact which it doesn't sound like she is? But you could offer to get there earlier and get your daughter ready if the unreadiness is causing problems? In my experience, toddlers fuss and faff about getting ready even when they are excited about doing whatever they're getting ready for just because they don't make the mental connection between getting ready and the event- dad arriving to get her ready might actually help her to remember that there's a reason she's getting sorted to go out...

lol. WibblyBibble . There is a lot more to it yes.

If I get to dd's mums house early I have to wait out in the street until the allotted time because it's too 'unsettling' for dd to see me 20 minutes early. Even when I offer to help get dd ready.

But I appreciate what you're saying. Thanks.

Is she actually messing around with the contact itself or is that going ahead? Is it just the handover bit that's the issue?

Yes and no.

It was a massive struggle to get her to agree to alternate w/e and one weekday visit. She felt it was unreasonable.

When we split up I had to trawl through a years worth of text messages to prove I had actually been looking after my dd on my own for a fairly respectable amount of time given that I work full time and she claimed I could hardly change a nappy.

She was and still is against dd staying with me. And I assure you my house is very much geared to my dd. I'm quite proud of the bedroom I've created for her and my dd seems very happy here. I do my best to make sure she has friends to play with here, I cook decent meals for her and by all accounts I keep her safe and entertained. I love my dd very much. There are no skelatons in the closet other than my bad spelling.

Between 'my weekends' I see dd for about two hours on a Monday . That's over the course of 10 days. Which imo is pathetic. When I've mentioned working out another afternoon visit I'm told there isn't time in dd's schedule. She actually told me once that one of dd's toddler classes was more important than time with dad when we were trying to work out a day to visit. She tried to organize Saturday school for dd whilst saying I could only have dd Saturday till Sunday tea time.

On three sucesesive Mondays she's been unable to make the hand over time and as a solution ( as I have to get back to work ) suggests she put dd in nursery all day thus depriving me and dd. If I suggest I see dd in the afternoon instead there is usually a reason why I can't as XP has plans with her.

Thankfully I have an understanding boss but there is a limit.

I am very flexible with my XP . If she needs me to shift my weekend by a day or take a day off to cover her work, or dd has a b'day party or shudder it's the ex mother in laws b'day to go to I happilly change my plans.

If I suggest I see dd for any time outside of the alternate w/e scenario ( and we agreed that my 50% of holidays was to be spread out as extra days as dd is still small ) or covering XPs unpredictable work schedule it's usually met with hostility, obstruction and usually some form of offencive comment such as the suggestion dd doesn't really want to be with me.

Everytime I see my dd on a Monday she asks me not to go when I have to head off. And I remain cheerful for her but I really feel like weeping tbh.

So is there a problem with access ? Well I still see dd, not enough, but I still see her, but it's hard work. So this issue about handovers is part of a whole tapistry of stuff. And the issue of whether dd wants to stay with me is I think at best obstruction at worst emotional blackmail.

Sorry. Just need to get a lot of stuff off my chest.

XP is a good mum. We manage to get on mostly for dd's sake. But this issue is ... Well becoming an issue.

I'd do anything for my ex to be as commited and fighting for access as you are. It breaks my heart that he just wants when it suits him and although he's been semi helpful because I am heavily heavily pregnant with out second he will run and dash at the first opportunity and huffs and puffs when it doesn't "suit" him..sometimes he's happy with just 5 mins at the door with DS :( I truely hope she comes round. Your dd is very lucky to have two parents who want to be there and love her consistently and wholly. Good luck MrGin!

It does sound that she is probably insecure. I don't in any way think this makes it okay, but there's not much use us sitting here agreeing about it, it isn't going to make her realise how she is behaving unless she is able to see this.

She's probably attaching a load of emotional stuff to various things which in other situations she would be rational about because on some level she doesn't really want DD to have a wonderful time at yours, she wants her all for herself. And she most likely doesn't realise she's doing this :( and it's really sad for DD - and for you. I know it's hard to tell over a screen, but I've seen your posts before and I've never had a nagging underlying feeling that you're not telling the whole story, which TBH I get rather more often than I probably should with male posters on here or relationships.

I wonder if there would be a way to suggest (without offending) that she reads one of those books (Some suggestions - there was also a series on channel 4 a while back) which kind of go through all these feelings, say they are normal and then explain how to get round them and be neutral in front of your child. I don't know why you split up but it's also possible she's feeling guilty about "not making it work" or about the fact your DD doesn't have a "traditional" family setup. There is nothing inherently wrong with these things, as long as they are handled well. It's hard though because there's no guidance anywhere on how the situation should be handled. Generally the people who get it right do so because they have seen someone else handle it in the right way.

Also, something my HV suggested when XP used to still have contact was to get DS (who was 2 then) to make a book, for himself (obviously with help!) about his family and life story - basically to give him a camera and encourage him to take photos of all the people and places that he loves and put them all together in a book, so pictures of me, our house, his bedroom, his toys, our cat, whatever random crap a 2 year old points a camera at (it's an interesting exercise in what they find interesting!) and then his dad, dad's gf, her DD, the new baby, his bedroom there, his toys there, the view out of the window etc. Just to reinforce that both of these places are his spaces and he has a claim on them and all of these people are his family and they all love him. In fact she suggested he include his CM and her home & family in the book as well because he spent a large proportion of time there too. It was just about making sure that DS had the chance to have a little part of his life with his Dad around in this house as well. She said I didn't need to put poster size photos of XP in my living room, but for him to have pictures of him in his room etc if he wanted that. I do still have pictures of XP on my computer, I've deleted the ones just of him or just of him + me, but the ones with DS in I've kept. My mum did the same for me - kept the baby photos of me with my Dad, just in a separate album, and I'm so glad that she did. It would have been sad if she'd just got rid of them.

I do feel that my DDs toddler classes are very important as she is an only child and the only child in the extended family so only sees other people her age for the 2 hours she is at classes and I think this is very important for her. However, there is nothing stopping your ex letting you getting involved in this part of her life. Perhaps you could offer to take your DD to one of her toddler classes so that she doesn't miss out and have some time after that for lunch/dinner etc. It would allow you to take part in her daily routine.

Your situation is probably very different to mine but whether rightly or wrongly I do feel rather agitated when my DDs dad prioritises his time with her over these groups when he wasn't interested in being a Dad in the first place and the parents I met their have been our support network well before he decided to come back on the scene and their children have been a constant in her life and she often asks about them and knows when to expect to play with them.

Your ex does sound like a pain and your right in the children just wanting to stay where they are. However, you probably don't see the after affects of contact which although are completely natural can be very difficult for the RP or so I find.
For example after my DD sees her Dad who Im certain she has a wonderful time with and always comes back with a big smile on her face she becomes a velcro child for days after, won't let me out of her sight, is very difficult to get to sleep in her own bed, screams for me when she wakes up and becames very distressed when she can't see me, won't let anyone do anything for her other then me and although I have a nice break whilst she is with her dad it is absolutley exhausting and to have to go through it twice a week is a nightmare. Some children become violent and lash out and don't like the transistion so this could also be a problem or maybe not and maybe she is just a nightmare ex.

BertieBotts thankyou, that really is good advice. And on one level I have been thinking about the emotional motivations taking over from the logical motivations. And how I can engage with that when trying to address these issues with XP. Because the last thing I want is a fight.

Mostly my XP is a reasonable person, except when it comes to dd and me. I just end up completely confused as to why she'd behave like that. I think it has a lot to do with her own childhood, the fact she was an only child who always got her way, and her non-UK culture which is a fairly controlling one ja.

Daisy1986 I agree that classes are important for dd. But her mother has completely filled up her life with classes and nursery, there is very little space left for me, she'd organize weekend ones too if she didn't know it'd be the last straw with me and I'd go straight to a solicitor, so when I try and negotiate a regular visit I find there aren't any gaps in dd's busy schedule and no willingness to compromise. There is always a reason why it's 'impossible' rather than a willingness to make it work.

I really believe XP'd be happier if I weren't around. And in all honesty despite my faults I am a fairly decent sort, I'm gentle and loving with my dd ( as well as telling her off when need be ) , I'm considerate in general and I care about people in general too.

And I know that there are after effects when she goes home to mum that I don't see. I feel guilty about that, I feel guilty that dd has to grow up with two people who couldn't make the relationship work, and we're both to blame really. It might well be better from one perspective if dd never stayed with me, but it'd mean I'd essentially step out of her life.

I think you should go to court to get firm access arrangements anyway.

Quite apart from the fact that it's not good for your dd to only see you every 14 days (and will be exacerbating her attachment 'not wanting to go' malarkey) it's less than you would get awarded.

If you carry on in this vein two things will happen:

1. You will set a precedent of only having her 2 nights a fortnight which could then come to be used against you - "Oh well he was perfectly happy with the arrangements as he's been doing it for X years"

1. She may gradually erode even that time you have with her - Saturday school, dancing lessons, riding lessons etc etc

I would go to court and push for joint custody. If you live close enough it could work out fine for her. Even if you don't get joint I'm sure you will get more time with her and more importantly it will mean an order that can't be fucked about with.

I don't give a toss whether you are a man or a woman seeking this it is the rights of the child to spend equal time as far as possible with both parents - and that premis should be where the court starts.

It may end up there Laurie, quite a few people have said the same thing, it's a last resort though. I will try and discuss these issues with XP first, if we don't get anywhere, mediation, if that doesn't work I'd go to court.

One thing not menhtioned though is that I live about an hour away from XP. It was a choice ( or not ) between a pokey studio flat near XP's in the city, a rather expensive area, or a two bed house where I grew up out in the countryside.

The former would have depressed me and I wouldn't have felt comfortable having dd to stay, the latter gives her her own room and miles of woodland to explore.

So as much as I'd love shared residency it's not really possible. And I know once dd starts school it'll get harder.

I have to say that i actually think that Court will be a necessity for you to do MrGin.

Women follow patterns, and yours is one that i am all too familiar with. It might be worth investing short term in Court rather than long term in the hope that things will resolve.

Mediation will be a mandate of the Courts in any instance. However any agreement made in Mediation should always be taken back to court to be put into a Legally Binding Contact Order.

I will be highly surprised if no threads appear within the next 12months from you not wanting contact.

Contact Orders essentially guarantee you time with your child come what may. However even Contact Orders are routinely flouted by mothers who have an axe to grind.

from what i've seen on legal board shared residency would be feasiblea s it cements the residence of child as being equally with both - regardless of actual time spent in each household. it means both households are equal- and that would eb appropriate in your case.

shared residence order can still specify one evening a week plus alt weekends contact - but it realy would establish you on equal footing to your ex, regardles sof where dd spends most of her nights.

i would go for it as riakin said - offer her mediation to iron out teh niggles, but point out that a shared residency order setting outcontact in stone (to iclude "and any other as mutually agreed" would make things very clear for both of you..... also it would make it very clear that should something happen to your ex, dd would automatically go live with you. as you would already have residence albeit shared. (and vice versa)

Thank you Cestlavielife and Riakin. I'm very grateful for your and everyone else's input here.