First Christmas since split...

[froggies]

background... ExP and I split in January, after 12 yr relationship. I have DS (15) and DD's (6&3) DS has no contact with ex; DD's have overnight mid week and overnight and one day at weekend with ExP. He lives very close by. ExP has a controlling personality, and gets angry when 'people tell him what to do' ie, he asked to do something he doesn't like, or 'people don't give him respect/do as they are told' ie he doesn't get his own way....
3 months ago I suspect (but have no proof) that he made a complaint against DS with regards to his behaviour towards DD1. This was duly investigated by the police and social services, and nothing was proven, but this initiated an investigation into ExP's behaviour towards DS, there was insufficient evidence to charge....
So, you get the picture of the kind of guy I am dealing with.

This year, Christmas day falls on a Sunday, DD's usually go to his sat night and all day Sunday. Obviously, it being Christmas day I would like them to be a home for Santa, but have no probs with them going to his later in the day. I suspect he isn't of this opinion as DD1 has already informed me that they will be at Dad's for Christmas. So, I asked her where she would like to be when she wakes up on Christmas morning, explained that Santa would leave presents both here and at Dad's, so wherever she was, she would get them... She said with no hesitation that she wants to be here for presents and breakfast, and then to go to Dads.
So, now I have to broach the subject with ExP.... Wherever possible I only communicate with him by text/email.... This is my first draught.... Asking for opinions! I am tempted to go into explanations of how the conversation went as he will think I have 'unfairly influenced her decision in order to disrupt his relationship with his daughters' (have had that one before) but am fairly sure they will be wasted.... But I am a little concerned he will take this as rude and it will lead to more angst from him....

Hi Xxx

DD1 has asked me if she can be at home on Christmas eve and Christmas morning to open her presents, and then come up to yours to open presents at your house and for the rest of the day.

I trust this won't be a problem.

likelihood is you going to have to accept alternate xmases.

alternative would be

"as xmas falls on your usual weekend overnight this year i am happy for them to be at yours for xmas morning adn come to me later in the day. but in future i would like to alternate so next year they would be with me for xmas morning. hope you ok with that"

That was along the lines of what I was thinking, until DD1 said she wanted to be here in the morning
I also suspect that he will object to them coming home early, so had actually considered having Christmas a day early here so that I didn't get them back knackered at 6.30 and wanting to open more pressies... Or making them wait until the next day, which would be awful!

thing is if you have a routine going then unless you can sit and agree to rearrange xmas maybe it just better to keep as is?

so yes do your xmas with them the day before or the day after.

in european countries 24th is the mian xmas day anyway - become a european and do xmas on the 24th this year! then send them to dad so routine is kept and you dont have to argue about rearranging.

I'm happy to do Christmas a day early. DS is not impressed with the idea, but tough if that is what we do. But feel I should a least attempt the conversation before resorting to that, as I am bound to get the 'all you had to to do is ask, I don't know why you have to make a big issue of things.... Comments if I do it on the assumption that he will say no, even though i suspect he will.... Trying not to give him ammunition, without enabling him to walk all over me.

Really - I think the discussion with ex should have come before the discussion with DC's...otherwise they are put in the unenviable position of choosing which parent they want to upset and disappoint. Kids are very good at picking up on vibes and telling each parent what they want to hear. If I was sent that text I would feel emotionally blackmailed, TBH. Would you accept a similar text from ex? "DD wants to stay with me for a fortnight, trust that is not a problem?". She is 6, that is a lot of adult responsibility you are allowing.

Is this a workable solution long term? Many parents find alternate christmas to be a viable solution so that DC's aren't ferried about on the day itself...but equally dividing the day itself can work if you live close by and are prepared to alternate.

Yes, I see your point, unfortunately as he has already told DD's that they are spending Christmas with him, with no discussion with me, I was going down the line of asking them what they wanted to do before entering discussions with him, because if they were fine with it I would just work around it, as advised by the support worker who works with us.
I don't think DD has made her decision based on trying to please me, she wants to do the presents and breakfast then up to his to get presents there. I think she is working on how to get her pressies as quickly as possible, which is fair enough.
Thank you for your comments re draught 1. You are right, on looking at it again it does seem a bit emotionally blackmaily, which was not my intension. I don't want to give him the impression that I want to take Christmas morning away from him, saying that I wan her t be here is likely t ge an automatic no from him. I will try again.
Practically there is no issue, as he lives VERY close. If this changes (hopefully) in the future, I am quite happy to look at alternatives.

I wouldn't put "I trust this wont be a problem". I can imagine most people would be fuming if told that.

Also agree you should have discussed this with him before discussing it with the children, sorry.

You really need to discuss xmas arrangements long term so they are set up now and you don't have a battle every December then. (This is what I did with my controlling ex).

If he has just assumed he is only having them xmas this year as it falls on his usual overnight day, then what is he expecting will happen next year and the year after that?? I suspect he is just so pleased with his luck this year he has announced it to the dds as a done deal without considering what will happen long term. His plan would actually mean he lost out long term wouldn't it!

I would approach it as deciding as a long term arrangement what could be done, whether it's alternating who will have the day or splitting the day. (My DS goes to his dad's at tea time xmas day and comes back boxing day).

I think in your shoes I would say if this is how he wants it then it will be a case of alternating each year and so next year it will be your turn. (And then do xmas a day early). Or he may realise this means every other year he won't get to see his dds on xmas day at all and may decide on splitting the day.

You mentioned a support worker, could she or someone else mediate if he won't be reasonable?

I think if they go for Christmas then it probably should be a whole day. As you say, coming home at 6.30 knackered is not the time for them to be opening presents. It's not too bad just having Christmas on another day - that's what we did as children. (Parents split when we were 6 & 3) Mum & Dad (separately) hyped it up so we thought it was a great idea.

My arrangement is alternating 12 noon christmas eve to 12 noon boxing day as I felt it nicest for DD to wake up where she was stayin instead of being ferried around. This doesnt start untill 2012 but I just intend to have christmas on a different day for her.

To whowhowhowho, yep, I think he has done a yipee they are with me thing, and that he hasn't thought of next year or the year after.... I did...and really should have opened the discussion earlier, but have been dealing with various 'discussions' about other practical things too, none of which ever go easily and there were only so many things I could give the mental energy to at one time.
As they don't have far to go, moving from one place to another really isn't a problem. He had them for a wee while after school on DD1's birthday (and all her pals, but that is another story) and as his normal night of a week fell on DD2's birthday which was during the school holidays, we had a wee party for her at lunchtime here and they went there as normal in the eve, so spending part of Christmas day here and part there isn't likely to be a problem for them, or inconvenient for either of us, it is more that if that happens, he will have a shorter length of time with them and I'm not sure how amenable he is likely to be to that.
And yes, I agree, again, that this should have been discussed between us before involving the children, but it wasn't, DD1 has told me what she would like, and now I need to negotiate with him, and I did tell her that I would have to discuss it with him before I could say yes or no to her request so it isn't set in stone. Unfortunately, I don't think mediation is likely to work. He only listens to people if they tell him what he wants to hear and knows is right.
So..... Second draught

As christmas is not far off, we should discuss arrangements. As Christmas day falls on Sunday this year, I had assumed that the girls would be with you Christmas eve and Christmas morning, and was going to suggest that they would be able to come back early to open the presents that are here, perhaps after lunch. However DD1 has asked if she could be here Christmas morning and come up to you after breakfast to open her presents at yours.

Perhaps you could let me know your thoughts so that we can come to an agreement that everyone is happy with?

Luckily Christmas has never fallen on exp weekend but if it did then tough...Christmas is my dad, boxing day is his day....it's been that way for 9 years and unless ds wanted to be there (which I can safely say he never would) but if he did then I may have to rethink.....so Christmas and birthdays ate my days!!!

Of course they are, Dee03, you are the important one at Christmas, after all

Much prefer the second draft, OP, but TBH I wonder if you should be much less leading? A simple 'we need to talk about Christmas arrangements' would be better, because in all honesty, there isn't going to be an arrangement that everyone is happy with. If you go in with 'the children want to be with me' ex will undoubtedly say the same. Above all, children want a guilt-free, argument-free, stress-free christmas.

I've just re-read my post and realised it says 'Christmas and birthdays ate my day's ...I meant ARE my days

Balia, good point. The last thing I want to do is put his back up. And as I had assumed he wouldn't be prepared to 'share' Christmas day, I was pretty mentally prepared to have it a day early. So, if he is willing to let them come home early it is a bonus for me. If not... Well he sets himself up for harder negotiations next year, though in all honesty, there is no way I could say no to them spending time with him on Christmas day if he asked because it would do them no good at all to have him doing the 'your mum won't let me see you' thing at any point.
I have to email him about something else anyway, so if I just add 'also we need to discuss contact arrangements for Christmas.' on the end, at least it opens the discussion.
Thanks!

I really hope it works out, OP, I think your children are lucky to have you!

This is our first Christmas without Exp here too. Mine are 4 and 3 and are off to his Xmas eve, and back here for mid morning Xmas day, and the back to his from mid morning Boxing day.

Amazingly, I haven't had a straight out bugger off....this was his reply

I have noticed that xmas falls on a sunday when the girls will be here ....what did you have in mind for christmas day.

So, i am still stuck with.... do I tell him that DD has asked to be here Christmas morning, or do ignore her request and ask for them to come home early, which I would be totally happy with, and it looks like he might be amenable to? Why can't life be bloody simple? Or do I say I would like them to be here Christmas morning, which obviously I would, to avoid the blackmaily feeling..... He could always have them with him Christmas night and bring them home boxing day....

Aaaggghhh. I should be able to have this conversation with him in a grown up way!!!

Think I will spell out the options...
A) they go to his as usual sat eve and come home early
B) they go to him mid morning sun, and stay Christmas night with him
C) they go to his as usual, sat nigh and all day sun, and I have a separate Christmas day.

Think i would actually prefer option c, then they get to spend a whole day with each of us, instead of being shifted from one to the other when they are bound to want to be playing with toys, and there is no time stress on the day, making sure I'm not delivering/ collecting late or early!
Any of those options are fine by me, let him decide!

To avoid the whole 'DD says she wants to be here' thing, I'd go with a discussion about christmas arrangements generally, eg "perhaps we could sort out a plan for 'special days' that we are both happy with" and then propose your long term preference. If that is alternate xmas's (and I think your instincts are right, a whole day is much better than a midday shift, much more relaxed for all concerned) then show willing and offer this xmas to him as it happens to be his day. We suspend the regular contact pattern over xmas so nobody misses out on time. You might want to include New Year, birthdays etc in this discussion.

I spoke to DS about two Christmases a while ago, and had suggested we go somewhere for a meal, eventually, he was ok with the idea of getting his pressies a day early, getting a lie in on Christmas day, having a meal out without his nattering wee sisters, and lazing in front of the tv for the afternoon, sounds pretty good to me too :-)
This years birthdays were entertaining, DD1 was at school, she wanted a party, the w/e before was gala week, so all her pals were busy with family, w/e after he had asked me not to do do anything as he had organised to go away and would miss it, also he wanted to see her and little sis for a few hours on her birthday (not sure how he thought he would fit in a few hours, when she finishes school at 3 goes to bed at 7 and has homework and dinner in between never mind playing with her pressies!).
So, I organised for her pals to come for tea after school on her birthday rather than the full blown party she wanted, and said that she would go to his after we had eaten. So, off she went, taking all her pals and little sis....
When it came to DD2s birthday a couple of months later, Which was on his normal week day overnight, he heard through other people that I was doing a party for her. He sent me an email telling me he didn't appreciate hearing what I was doing through the gossips, and that he hoped the party wouldn't interfere with his normal contact. DD1 told me "that they were not allowed to bring friends up, so they all had to go before it was time to go to Dad's".
I don't think he is likely to be willing to take turn about with birthdays, but I am sure I can work around it so that the girls don't miss out.
New year at the moment, I suspect will not be an issue. I am quite looking forward to them being at his, because it means DS and I can go out and party :-), when they are here, we will have a party :-) win win!