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Has my ex the right to demand our son stays overnight

42 replies

sisters4sisters · 27/08/2010 23:49

My husband of nearly 24 years left me for his work colleague in June. He has done pretty much everything wrong: told me he was having an affair in front of our 7 year old son, tried to take our 3 children to see his new house/woman without consulting with me, told me he was getting the keys to his new house on my birthday.
Even still I have let him take the children out every saturday, meet his new partner. He has asked if our 7 year old can stay over saturday 4 September, when his partner's 8 year old step grandson will be staying and they will share bunkbeds. My 2 daughters won't stay as their beds haven't arrived yet. The 4th september is our anniversary weekend so I am upsat that he is asking him to stay that weekend. He has been incredibly insensitive as if I never meant anything to him.
I have said he can't stay, not because of our anniversary which I haven't mentioned, but because it is his first week back at school and he will experience too much change for one week. My son has accepted this but my husband says his solicitor says he has equal rights to access and is demanding I agree.
My solicitor has indicated before that I have more say in this but as it is the weekend I can't consult her. Does anyone know if I have grounds to refuse?

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Bellasformerfriend · 27/08/2010 23:57

Ok, you have been through a terrible time - in fact you are still in the middle of a terrible time but you do need to seperate out what is a bout you and what is about your children.

TBH I would say that he does have the right to pursue overnight contact, i am certain (based on what you say here) that a court would award him o/n contact probably every other weekend and one other evening but possibly anything up to 50/50 care. perhaps this night is not the right night for the frst overnight (I would be more comfortable if they were all together tbh) but I think you are going to have to start accepting that this is going to happen at some point so you can try to manage it and make it as comfortable for your children as possible.

sisters4sisters · 28/08/2010 00:25

Thanks Bellasformerfriend. I forgot to say that I told him our son could stay the following weekend that the step grandson would be there but he said that wasn't til 3 weeks later and he's not willing to wait that long.
I would also prefer it to be when my 2 older daughters can stay too so that my son will have more support there as although he says he likes the other boy he does seem a bit intimmidated by him.

My husband only left 2 months ago and from what I can gather it is unusually quick for the children to be staying over already anyway.
If we had still been together we would not have allowed our daughters to have a sleepover that first weekend after starting back to school because they would have been tired and I think there is a good chance he won't be able to sleep the first night he stays

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sisters4sisters · 28/08/2010 00:28

Thanks Bellasformerfriend. I forgot to say that I told him our son could stay the following weekend that the step grandson would be there but he said that wasn't til 3 weeks later and he's not willing to wait that long.
I would also prefer it to be when my 2 older daughters can stay too so that my son will have more support there as although he says he likes the other boy he does seem a bit intimmidated by him.

My husband only left 2 months ago and from what I can gather it is unusually quick for the children to be staying over already anyway.
If we had still been together we would not have allowed our daughters to have a sleepover that first weekend after starting back to school because they would have been tired and I think there is a good chance he won't be able to sleep the first night he stays

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Bellasformerfriend · 28/08/2010 00:44

I am not convinced that it is "pretty quick" for o/n contact to be honest, they are not young children and have not had a prolonged period away from their father however I think it is quite valid that you want them all to be together. At 7 I would suspect there is a high chance of him getting unsettled later in the night, a problem that would be alleviated if your daughters were there.

When do the other beds arrive? could you not suggest that they all stay over as soon as the beds arrive and then go again when the SGS is there?

sisters4sisters · 28/08/2010 01:16

A couple of weeks later I think, but I suspect ex likes the idea of having our son on his own as the girls are older and less keen to stay I think.

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SolidGoldBrass · 28/08/2010 01:27

You do seem to be seeing this all through the filter of 'He dumped me, why should he have anything he asks for?' which is not healthy and not good for your DC. He's their dad and it's not unreasonable for them to stay overnight with him (you have mentioned nothing about him being abusive or neglectful).
Basically, not only does he have a right to have them stay overnight sometimes (general rule is every other weekend), but they have a right to stay overnight with their dad if they want to.

FallingWithStyle · 28/08/2010 01:32

Yea, sorry I'm sure you're having a rough time but you need to seperate it all out.
His role as your husband is over, his role as father is not.

Supercherry · 28/08/2010 08:09

Your children have a right to a relationship wth their dad but he doesn't have a right to have them overnight if this would make them feel uncomfortable.

Purely seeing it from the children's perspective I would insist that they be kept together and that the first overnight stay happens when sleeping arrangements for the girls have been put in place.

I think, as long as you can reasonable say it's in the children's best interests, you can refuse this particular overnight stay. You won't get into trouble for refusing this particular stay just choose your words carefully.

So sorry that he's put you all through this.

Niceguy2 · 28/08/2010 08:44

Agree with SGB

He's been incredibly insensitive bordering on doing it on purpose. However, it does seem as though you are finding reasons to be awkward just to poke him in the eye rather than out of any genuine concern.

Thing I learned is until you learn to let go and move into the "don't care" territory, this tit for tat battle ends up being incredibly draining and ultimately gets you nowhere.

sisters4sisters · 28/08/2010 09:24

Yes thanks you two.
I'm not trying to be awkward but felt he didn't need to ask for the first visit on our anniversary weekend when he must know it will be harder for me. Afterall I have to be strong for the children and this sort of thing doesn't help.
I agree going into the don't care (about him)territory will help and I'm starting to get there partly because of his terribly insensitive attitude.
I am quite happy for the children to stay every other weekend and that's what I'm expecting to happen.
But I think it shouldn't start that weekend with him starting back to school and would like his big sisters there to support him.
Whatever happens I will try and do what's best for the kids.

OP posts:
Supercherry · 28/08/2010 09:38

And really, just one poke in the eye won't hurt will it, surely? Grin.

No, seriously, stick to your very reasonable guns on this one. It's fine to want the children to stay together- they will need each other's support, especially the little one.

Supercherry · 28/08/2010 09:40

Just to add, don't let your ex think his 'rights' override everyone else's. They don't.

Oblomov · 28/08/2010 09:44

He has been very insensitive. to you. totally agree. but you must now seperate that from being reasonable about the children.
ask your son if he wants to go. if he does, you must let him. its YOU who are putting up all the barriers, of 'oh first week back at school etc'. and thats not fair.

swallowedAfly · 28/08/2010 12:33

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swallowedAfly · 28/08/2010 12:35

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lostdad · 28/08/2010 16:36

If you are stopping the kids staying overnight to punish your ex you do not have their best interests at heart.

The [b]only[/b] thing that counts is their best interests. He may be a complete s**t as a husband. He may be an inconsiderate tit - but it doesn't follow that he is automatically a bad father.

You need to work together. [b]Please[/b] do not look at it what `access you are prepared to offer'. The kids are people - not assets to be fought over. You are their parent [b]not[/b] their keeper.

Go to mediation - please. Work together. No laying the law' down, no letting him have access' (to [b]his[/b] kids - as as [b]yours[/b]). Neither of you has the right to dictate the other.

You are both responsible for your kids and you have to work together as parents even if you have split up - otherwise they are denied a fundamental right: A childhood seeing their mum and dad working together in their best interests.

swallowedAfly · 28/08/2010 17:51

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prettywhiteguitar · 28/08/2010 18:00

I would say it is in her son's best interests to have his siblings with him, when he stays over at his fathers house it could be a potentially very upsetting time.

They have only just split up and he will not be used to it and just gone back to school

Sometimes the father's wants and needs get in the way of what is actually best for the children because they are not used to looking after them all the time, even when when they lived with them.

gillybean2 · 28/08/2010 18:01

Sisters I think given how new this all is to you and how insensitive your ex is you are dealing with it all really well. And I think people are being a bit hard in you telling you to accept that contact will happen, when you clearly aren't trying to stop it, just needing it to be done sensitively and for the children's benefit.

Yes contact is likely to be ordered should it go to court. But that won't happen right away and your ex will find that court rather than talking, mediation and putting the children's needs above his own wants will drag on and on and cost everyone their sanity as well as money. Talking works a lot better (and faster) than laying down the law and if you are coming across as reasonable his sol should advise him to take that route rather than court.

I'm not saying you are being unreasonable, just that you do now have to appear to be reasonable at all times and turn the tables so that he is the one being unreasonable. Then if it ever goes to court they'll be supporting you and telling him to be reasonable.

So ok...
The point of contact with the Non Resident Parent is for the children to spend time with that parent. This other child being there (or not) should be irrelevant really and shouldn't be the reason for contact happening this weekend at all.

If your ds only wants to go when then other boy is there and is refusing to go when he's not, then he is going to play with that child, not to spend quality time with his dad.

Also - I don't see anything wrong with you suggesting next weekend instead of this given that it is back to school and there have been big upheavels during the last few weeks. Not sure why people are telling you that's not on. I think that maybe they perceive that you are basing this on the significance of the weekend to you (obviously it's not so important to your ex - you're well rid of him clearly!). However I feel that back to school is a very good reason, especially as they've had such big changes and his sisters won't be there either.

I would suggest you are firm with your ex from the start and don't let him bully you on this.

Tell him that of course contact will go ahead and you expect him to maintain his relationship with the children and that you fully support that.

But then say that contact this weekend is not convienient to you all - him and you and the children (he can't accomodate them all and you had other plans already given it is a significant date for you, which you could change but given the difficulties he has accomodating them all this weekend it seems reasonable for them to stay with you and go to him next weekend - he doesn't need to know what your plans are this weekend, and he may actually think about it a bit if you say it's significant)

You could also point out that if there is a bed for the step grandson that next weekend when he's not there he'll only be short one bed which will be easier for him to sort out - That way you are sounding helpful and considerate...

Anyway... say you believe it is in your dc's best interests to settle back into the school routine this week, stick to the plans you have already made for the weekend and then all come together. Also point out that the girls are upset about everything which is only natural. And that they will all have questions and may need reassurance from each other AND him as their dad and therefore it seems sensible for them all to come together.

You could also say that the sooner they get used to coming together and not opting out or being left out for whatever reason (beds is not major, there are alternatives such as camp beds or blow up mattresses - and he'll only be one bed short next weekend) the better.

Suggest how contact will proceed as you see it (every other weekend, friday school pick up to monday school drop off) and mention that if they come the following weekend it will be 2 weeks till the step grandson is there again which will tie in nicely. Mention that he will of course have to factor in time to ensure home work is done and you'll be sure to give him copies of timetables etc when they get them from school this week so he knows what equipment, lunch money etc he'll need to provide.

Then let him run around sorting out how to do school pick up and drop off and being a real parent OR let him turn around and say he can't do those so he's the one looking unreasonable as you've offered a good arrangement.

Then throw in that once the contact is working and the dc are happy you'll discuss holiday arrangements and special events like christmas, birthdays etc ONCE everything is working and the dc are happpy about it all. He might argue but as long as you are being reasonable about everything he won't have a leg to stand on.

That's how you poke him in the eye and show the court (if it comes to it) that you have bent over backwards, are putting your children first, and that he is the unreasonable one.

I would suggets you write it out clearly, either in a letter or email and send it to him and copy it to his solicitor. Make sure it is impartial, has nothing emotional from your point of view in it and is completely child focused. If you want someone to read it through I'd be happy to give you some feedback before you send it.

Make sure you get the sols details if you don't have them already. It will cost him £50 each time the sol sends the letter to him, even when you've already copied it to him. If he wants to pay for a sol then let him pay. Him telling you about his sol is clearly meant to scare you into doing what he wants. Don't stand for it.
He will soon find out that talking is better for everyone than threatening you with sols and court. Well maybe he won't based on what you've said before...

Lastly I would add that I say all this as a person who is very much in favour of both parents having significant contact. So as long as you are being reasonable, allowing contact and putting the children first then your ex won't have a leg to stand on.

Stay strong, your children need you more than ever now, but they also need their dad. And please plan something for next weekend. Your ex can object as much as he likes but no court will order contact for next weekend even if he does try that route. By the time it gets to court the weekend will be long past. So plan something and arrange something for yourself the following weekend when they will all be at their dads.
Best wishes and big hugs. I think you're being very reasonable given how new this all is to you :(

Bellasformerfriend · 28/08/2010 18:04

swallowedafly, sorry but I have to disagree with you there - to some extent. Of course they are not going to have the option of putting them to bed every night but they should not have to think "I got a new women so I am only allowed to see my kids monthly" or whatever and they should continue to have equal say in their childrens lives - they are still 50% of the childs parents after all!

Lack of access is not a reasonable punishment for being a crap husband.

Bellasformerfriend · 28/08/2010 18:11

Gillybean2, I admit I have only skim read your post as it is very long but I have to pick up on this bit

"The point of contact with the Non Resident Parent is for the children to spend time with that parent. This other child being there (or not) should be irrelevant really and shouldn't be the reason for contact happening this weekend at all.

If your ds only wants to go when then other boy is there and is refusing to go when he's not, then he is going to play with that child, not to spend quality time with his dad."

I have to say this is totally incorrect! The point of contact is to allow the child access to the NRP and the family/friends/life associated with them. Like it or not this dsg is part of the new life. It is also reasonable for the NRP to arrange contact so that the child/children can spend time with any grandparents/family - even if that is without the NRP. It is not just the NRP that children stand to loose out on when parents split.

swallowedAfly · 28/08/2010 18:54

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Bellasformerfriend · 28/08/2010 19:28

Hmm, I am not sure I buy that - see less simply because of geography yes but have less of a say?? No, I don't think that is right at all.

seeker · 28/08/2010 19:37

Most people would let a 7 year old go for a sleepover ata friend's house if he wanted to. It seems very unreasonable to me not to let said 7 year old have a sleepover with his own father if he wants to.

legoStuckinmyhoover · 28/08/2010 20:25

sisters4sisters, i am sorry to hear what you are going through.

I will probably be shot down for this but I actually think the following:

I would say that after 24 years of marriage, that 8-10 weeks [since june?] is very, very early days. And to be honest, to expect you to happily drop your son off with him and his new gf on your first wedding anniversary alone is expecting a hell of a lot from you imo. We all have our limits.

I cannot, in these circumstances see why if you give him notice you couldnt offer another date instead or something. It is afterall, just one weekend and I am sure in the future he will have to cancel an odd weekend too.

good luck.

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