Has my ex the right to demand our son stays overnight

[sisters4sisters]

My husband of nearly 24 years left me for his work colleague in June. He has done pretty much everything wrong: told me he was having an affair in front of our 7 year old son, tried to take our 3 children to see his new house/woman without consulting with me, told me he was getting the keys to his new house on my birthday.
Even still I have let him take the children out every saturday, meet his new partner. He has asked if our 7 year old can stay over saturday 4 September, when his partner's 8 year old step grandson will be staying and they will share bunkbeds. My 2 daughters won't stay as their beds haven't arrived yet. The 4th september is our anniversary weekend so I am upsat that he is asking him to stay that weekend. He has been incredibly insensitive as if I never meant anything to him.
I have said he can't stay, not because of our anniversary which I haven't mentioned, but because it is his first week back at school and he will experience too much change for one week. My son has accepted this but my husband says his solicitor says he has equal rights to access and is demanding I agree.
My solicitor has indicated before that I have more say in this but as it is the weekend I can't consult her. Does anyone know if I have grounds to refuse?

Seeker there is a vast difference between a parent and a friend you have a sleepover with. Having a sleepover at your parents is putting dad in the position of a 'fun' parent. Not an equal parent who actually parents.

Bella the grandchild in question is not related to the child. No court would insist at this point that the contact went ahead purely for the two children concerned to have a relationship when they barely know each other and aren't even related.

In fact the father has only been seeing the child's grandmother for a couple of months. So mum could argue in court that the new partner is taking care of the child and dad isn't even around so what is the point of the contact when he could be spending time with his actual family/real grabdparents/mum instead. Especially at this difficult time when dc are resentful of new partner and dad needs to earn their trust back. Would a court question a mum saying that really..?

If she wanted to be difficult mum could even insist that contact went ahead without the child or the new partner being around and that if dad was serious about seeing the dc he would surely agree and be perceived to be unreasonable not to agree.

I know it sounds crazy, but I have been in such a situation myself where the mother stated this and refused to agree to contact where the new partner and child were present. So dad reluctantly 'agreed' in court that the new partner and her child wouldn't be around for dad to have contact simply to get some interim contact as mum wouldn't agree to any contact without that priviso. As it had then been agreed any further agreements simply stated 'as previously agreed with additional inclusions...' and mum refused to remove that clause.
That was at the informal 'you must come to an agreement' part. When it came to the actual order being made some 18months later it wasn't mentioned at all as mum knew the judge wouldn't order it as part of the agreement. But dad had the choice of either making a stand and not seeing child, or 'putting the child first not the new partner' and agreeing.

I didn't agree with it then and I don't now, not least because I was the new partner and it was me and my child who were prevented from having a relationship with my new partners daughter for almost 18 months for absolutely no reason what so ever. But mum had made it look like dad was being unreasonable to choose his new partner over contact with his young child. So he had no choice but to agree or not see her. By pushing the point he came across as unreasonable to the judge.
In fact mum gave no reason for her demand in court. Outside of court she simply said she didn't like him having a new partner and didn't believe he was actually parenting because I was around to do it for him.

Hence why I said the OP must always apear to be the reasonable one, because the minute you start to look unreasonable you are at a serious disadvantage in court.

"Bella the grandchild in question is not related to the child. No court would insist at this point that the contact went ahead purely for the two children concerned to have a relationship when they barely know each other and aren't even related."

What on earth is that about?? I am sure that a court would not insist on contact between the grandchild and the Ops son - but that is not what I said, in fact not even close to what I said.

"In fact the father has only been seeing the child's grandmother for a couple of months. So mum could argue in court that the new partner is taking care of the child and dad isn't even around so what is the point of the contact when he could be spending time with his actual family/real grabdparents/mum instead. Especially at this difficult time when dc are resentful of new partner and dad needs to earn their trust back. Would a court question a mum saying that really..?"

And again - what on earth are you on about?? Where does it say that the new GF will be looking after the Ops son and dad won't be there? Where does it say Ops son is resentful?

With all due respect you do seem to be making the story up as you go along here!

swalloedafly, you are still not making sense - this person wants 50/50 care - that is to be equally present, equally "resident", equally parent...I cannot see how that translates in your head to someone who will be less present and have less say - it just makes no sense at all!

As for adult children of... do you not think that a tiny bit of the effect on the (now adult) child will have been caused by the fact they had very very little contact with said father, largly because of the stigma placed on leaving? And, assuming that to be the case, wouldn't that make the argument for shared care even stronger? So the child can form an independant relationship outside of any "wrong-doing" and, potentially, grow up without the damage that is caused when one parent in un-justifiebly removed from their life?

You have a right to grieve for what you had and the particular night is the first anniversary of your wedding and your marriage has been finished - this is a hard time for you.

I will say that my own advise would be for you to tell your soon to be ex that you would liek to sit down and sort out a plan for the children to have access to both thier parents and overnight stays away from the family home.

This is something that is a bolt out of the blue and you didn't expect but you need to make sure that your dc get time with thier dad and with you and that time is good and contiuous.

it also means that you get time to yourself to do things you want to do.

A lot of familys that are seperated do every other weekend and you might suggest that after the first week or two at school your dc start going to thie fathers house one weekend night and after they are used to this over a couple of weks they stay friday and saturday night.

"Seeker there is a vast difference between a parent and a friend you have a sleepover with. Having a sleepover at your parents is putting dad in the position of a 'fun' parent. Not an equal parent who actually parents."

Of course there is. What I ws trying to point out is that it might be hard to justify saying no a child's father about something that you would happily allow with a classmate.

What person - err..the op and her exh?
Where talked about... it is the whole basis of the thread??

Ok, well I feel strongly that it should not be the way it should be and also that the only reason it is the way it is in some poor childrens lives is because of some women who feel they have the right to dictate their childrens lives for them rather than looking at what they actually want or need. This behaviour is then supported by a society that is skewed and twisted by years of "tradition" and gossip mentality and men who have had their lack of importance to a child drummed into them since birth.

I find it very distasteful to see someone being advised on such an outmoded and potentially harmful basis when the person who will be harmed by parents fighting is their own child! IMHO one of the best things for the child with 50/50 care is that the parents have to work together, no matter how much they may not want to they have to put the needs of the child above their own need for revenge or satisfaction.

Hehe...wrong thread...

Well...50/50 care vs overnight stays...they are similar aren't they??

erm..co-operation is key in the care of any child...

Oh ok, messed up, sorry everyone - at least I had the good grace to mess up properly

As other people have said, it is very early days and OP is bound to be feeling very shell-shocked (sorry - couldn't think of a word to convey the real magnitude of the effect of the end of a 24 year marriage).

However, I think it is even more important to make sure that contact goes ahead, particularly for the younger child. It's not really about whether the kids all go together as OP has already said that's a temporary issue until the girls have beds, and as they are older they will have different views/needs etc. But for the younger one keeping contact going is really important - don't forget he has had a massive change in his life too, and yes, going for 3 weeks without seeing Dad is far too long at this stage. Theres no evidence to suggest that Dad wouldn't looking after both boys and may be suggesting it because they may both have fun.

The whole thing about him going back to school, well, he's not just starting school, is he? And he has a night at yours before he goes. If you look hard enough there'll be a 'reason to refuse' every contact. Have you thought of mediation to work out some of the issues?

Also - whilst I think your ex may well be loved up and oblivious to the anniversary-type issues, if he isn't and is being spiteful, the last thing you want to do is rise to it and show him you are hurt.

`agree with what you are saying lostdad but when a man walks out on his wife and kids for another woman it would be naive of him to think he wasn't going to see less of his kids and have less say in their lives.'

This is irrelevant. It is nothing to do with how someone is as a spouse. Would you also suggest that a woman who walks out on her husband for another man should expect to have less of a say in her kids' lives?

That's exactly what happened to me - my ex took my son after having an affair and my son is permitted to see me (after 9 court appearances...so far) every other weekend and for a few hours during the weekend.

And no. I didn't beat her, cheat, run out, spend all the money on Stella or the like.

You're right though...when parents split they cannot expect to see their kids the same amount of time as they did before the split. But if you're a man it's by and large irrelevant if you've been a good or bad father, or good or bad husband/partner - chances are you'll be reduced to a 2nd class parent by a corrupt Family Court system.

Even when it's the kids' best interests to keep their dad in their lives.

Send your son, and your daughters too. Your daughters can sleep in their dad's bed, and he and his GF can sleep in the living room.

All or nothing, mate, all or nothing.

Good idea Colditz.

Then go and have a good night out with your friends op :)

I think what you say it v telling - your birthday, your anniversary, he's being v insensitive... It's not about you, hard as that might be to accept. It's about the children. And "too much change for one week" - come on! When does a child really get too "tired" because of going to school? It;s exciting!

I have only read the opening post so I don't know if any one has mentioned this..

Yes he has equal rights to get overnight contact, which doesn't mean that he has the right to get as much contact as he wishes. However, it seems to me that your grounds for refusing contact on that night are going to be dismissed.

He can take you to court, and from my perspective you will be reprimanded by the court for being unreasonable. Further to it, it is very likely that he may come out of it with a Defined Contact court order in his favour which specifies when and for how long contact is going to tale place.

Considering you have only split a few months ago, I would rather let my child go for the weekend than being forced to decide strict contact patterns when things are still so raw. You need to see how your children are coping before you take this decisions, as they are very difficult to change once the curt order is in place.

And that without considering the legals costs, they can easily go into 5 figures numbers. And also create such a bad feeling between you that you may not be able to co parent together as you should after that. Too much at stake just to keep DS settled down for a week... imo.

I have read this post with great interest and sadness! I have been on both sides of this, both as the child of an absent father and as the wife of a strayed husband (who had a total double life I may add)......both of which have shaped the life of myself and that of my daughter....
My mother never allowed overnight access to my Dad's and indeed we were only allowed access once a month, which caused many problems in our house. We were never considered and i swore if it ever happened to me I would fully involve my child in the decision making.
It did happen after 10 years of marriage and I was gutted to say the least and yes, hard as it is you have to allow and encourage the child to continue to have the relationship with their Dad. I have never stood in my ex husband's way (except if there were clashes of plans which throughout a lifetime is to be expected), but it is right in that if you are reasonable and offer alternatives if things are unsuitable then you will not be seen as creating barriers.
2 months however is very soon and I would advise purely for the children to adjust to this situation (7 is young but old enough for painful memories to stick and affect their future), that you suggest that for the first few visits that contact with the new girlfriend is avoided. this is purely for the children to have time to spend with their father to re establish a relationship and feel free to answer any questions they may have about the split,unhindered. they will not want to talk openly with a stranger there.
My daughter did not want to see her dad's new girlfriend or her family and indeed blamed her Father for the split until he had spent enough time with her to rebuild the relationship and she felt comfortable enough to meet his partner.
It is hard enough to cope with family breakdown as a child never mind being forced to accept a new partner of your parent or their children or grandchildren when you thought that your parents would be together forever.
I remember thinking that my dad had chosen this whole new family (his girlfriend had a daughter and then fell pregnant with my half sister)over us and that is a very painful thing to happen when you are a child, especially if you are kept in the dark about what is happening as it makes you feel you are totally irrelevant.

When it comes to it though (and this is the hardest part for you)you must encourage your children to get to know their dad's new partner as they are going to be a major part of their life.
It will get easier to cope with but just keep your children at the forefront of the decision making and you won't go far wrong.