Richmond Borough Schools Chat 6

[BayJay2]

Hello! This is the latest thread in a series originally triggered by Richmond Council's Education White Paper in Feb 2011. We chat about local education policy, the local impact of national policy, local school performance, and admissions-related issues.

Please do join in. There’s a bunch of us who’ve been following the thread for a long time, and we sometimes get a bit forensic, but new contributions are always welcome.

If you have a few hours to spare and want to catch up on 4 years of local education history, then below are the links to the old threads. We have to keep starting new threads because each only hold 1000 posts. The first two run in parallel, as one was started on the national Mumsnet site, and the other locally:

1a) New Secondaries for Richmond Borough? (Feb 11 - Nov 11)
1b) New Secondary schools for Richmond! (Feb 11-Nov 11)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2 (Nov 11-May 12)
2. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3 (May 12-Nov 12)
3. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 4 (Nov 12-Oct 13)

1. Richmond Borough Schools Chat 5 (Oct 13-Nov 14)
2. Richmond Borough Schools Chat 6 (Nov 14 - ????) : This thread!

The languages department at Turing House consists of one unqualified Spanish teacher whose only experience of KS3 language according to the TH website is as a languages assistant. How can you possibly compare that to the well-established languages departments at Waldegrave, Teddington, Orleans Park etc.?

My problem is that the whole TH website and brochure is misleading to potential parents. The example timetable includes Art and French. They don´t have any teachers for these subjects at all.

Secondly, I notice under the support staff that they do not intend to recruit a lab technician for science. Does that indeed mean that all the year 7s will be missing out on practical science experiments. How on earth can you compare that to the other schools? Or even have the cheek to suggest that the school could have a specialist science status.

As I said before, there are many teachers who have not got any experience in the subjects that they are about to teach. There is no-one in the entire school who could help them. The TH website says their curriculum is expert-driven. This is deliberately misleading to potential parents. How can you be an expert teacher in a subject you have never taught before? Yes, this happens in other schools but in those schools there are large departments where the teachers work together in teams and share their knowledge and experience. For example, humanities, technology, science etc.

I know it is a new school and there is a limited budget on staffing and resources. It is difficult and it must be a logistical nightmare to recruit under those conditions. However, I don´t think it is fair to make claims of educational quality or choice that are clearly untrue.

Muminlondon, as I said previously it will be looked at. It's a bit unreasonable to expect it to be done immediately.

ZoeTedders, as I said previously, I think you need to either address your questions to the school, or else wait to see the detail emerge on the website (it can't just be immediately updated in response to every Mumsnet question that comes up, although we do our best!)

As I've said before, despite having declared an interest as a parent member of the TH steering group, I'm posting here in a personal capacity rather than acting as a spokesperson for the school. (And I'm actually at work at the moment, so probably shouldn't even be doing that ).

BayJay2 I have already emailed the school and will update other prospective parents on here with the response.

If all the teachers are in fact qualified teachers as you say then this again should be made clear in the teacher biographies. It wouldn´t be fair on one teacher to say they are qualified and not include that information on the detailed biography of another.

Did you send it to the address on here or to another address?

www.turinghouseschool.org.uk/contactus.php

The email on the TH ´contact us´ page.

Well it hasn't arrived yet, but I'll make sure it's picked up when it does.

ZoeTedders – I think you are being very petty about the timetable. The timetable on the website is a sample picked from one of the other RET schools, as a parent who is sending their DC to TH I understand that it’s there to reassure me that the school will follow a standard school day with a similar distribution of subjects and teaching time as other local schools, I do not expect it to be accurate at this stage.

I’m interested in your points about the teacher biographies but having met the teachers I can say that I am more than satisfied with the Head’s choice. I hope TH can allay your fears though and update the website.

I understand that Art will be taught so I think you’re wrong on that one.

Funnily enough I raised the lab technician question myself, the science teacher was very candid and said that she would be her own technician for the first year at least. She didn’t see that as being a problem at all. She was very enthusiastic about practicals in science and I didn’t get the impression that these would be compromised in any way. My DC had a super conversation with her about dissections and mixing chemicals!

I got the impression that it was all-hands-to-the-pump for the first year and all the teachers seemed up for that, incredibly enthusiastic and committed. I’ve visited many schools over the last year and one of the things that turned me off them was the complacent attitude and lack of energy of some (obviously not all) of the teachers. TH will certainly not suffer from that!

But everyone needs to chose the right school for their child. The risks and decisions we take are personal ones, what suits me may well not suit you.

ZoeTedders, your email still hasn't arrived, so I suggest you send it again if you want a response.

For info, the Curriculum and Timetable pages have been on our website for more than 2 years and, as bluestars said, have had the purpose of demonstrating to prospective parents that Turing House will follow the National Curriculum and give them a flavour of a school which at that time was just a proposal. The page that is most relevant at this stage is the KS3 page, which currently says "French or Spanish" but should now be updated to say Spanish (actually there will be a French club too, but that will be extra-curricular).

Other pages will be updated as we go along, but as I said, you need to give it time.

It's worth perhaps noting that whatever other more established schools are able to offer, they all have the same number of hours in the day, so there will always be a trade-off between breadth and depth. Ultimately parents need to choose the school they think is right for their child, so if you really do have a Y5 child, you will inevitably make the decision that is right for you.

bluestars I wouldn't be personally happy with a school that didn't employ qualified teachers, but it's not currently illegal for free schools, as discussed, and you accept that at your own risk. As the Conservatives are unlikely to have a majority after the election, even with another LibDem coalition, and Labour/LibDems all state that it's their policy to allow only qualified teachers in state schools, I think that will change.

I'm not overjoyed about teachers who don't have a degree in that subject either, especially in science or languages, but there are several shortage subject areas and the argument about the year 7 curriculum being more general is fair enough. What is really important is that a statement about employing teachers according to the same standards as in maintained schools, where QTS is required, should be accurate.

It should have arrived as it was sent yesterday and was not returned to sender.

Could the website be updated to include the other National Curriculum subjects at KS3 that don´t seem to be covered by the current staff?

Art & Design
Computing
Design & Technology

I will say again, I just think the website is misleading. For example, you cannot say it is a broad and balanced curriculum if only certain subjects are available. Also, you cannot say it is expert-led if the teachers teaching many of the subjects are either unqualified or have no experience of teaching the subjects.

I imagine it will be ´all-hands-to-the-pump´ for the first year and probably quite a few more after that. As you have said, the science teacher will have to be preparing all the year 7 practicals in the absence of a technician.

Also, what will happen if the school moves to the Hounslow/Whitton borders? Will the intake of students at the school change completely based on the new catchment area? The detail on catchment areas is very unclear and hard to make sense of.

Parents will have to make an informed choice, but better that they are aware of the facts, rather than ill-informed hype.

On that note, the Headteacher´s welcome includes the following paragraph in which the word ´local´ is mentioned several times. This is a nonsense if the school moves to the Whitton/Hounslow borders and the catchment area changes as the school is no longer ´local´ at all. Effectively, by choosing to send my DC to Turing House, the local community is breaking up as I will be choosing a school that is soon-to-be non-local. Almost the complete opposite of the original aims of the founders.

´A new inclusive secondary school for Richmond was envisioned by a small group of parents who care deeply about their local area and its people. Faced with shrinking catchment areas and increased demand for local secondary schools, they saw their community breaking up as families moved away or chose non-local schools. Knowing that many other local people agreed that another excellent secondary school was needed they decided to try and do something about it.´

Blimey – what is it with this Turing House bashing?

Muminlondon – I agree that the teachers should be qualified, it’s my understanding that they are. You should give TH a chance to update their website – hopefully they will set things straight.

ZoeTedders – masses of information has been given to parents at open evenings. Many of your questions have been answered at these events and the school is best placed to answer them – not this forum.

As for the website – have you seen any other Free School website that gives you more information? I really think the TH one is exceptional (take a look at GEMS or Bellevue’s with their scant generic copy). TH are responsive. If something is unclear then let the school know.

Finally, RET are the good guys. They are not a Harris-type chain who are coming in with a carbon-copy-school regardless of local need/views. They are building and shaping the school, they are responding to parents. I’ve heard many questions asked at parents evenings that that have been answered with “tell us what you think” or “tell us what you would like”. I feel as if I’m part of a community invested in this school – hence my defense of it – and that’s a great thing. The school will be great, just look at RET’s track record. They know what they are doing.

Zoe, your email didn't arrive yesterday either, so please do send it again.

If you do have another agenda or interest other than just as a Year 5 parent, it's worth declaring that upfront too.

As I've already said, I will make sure that the website is updated, but you need to give it time.

For info, interviews were taking place for the Technology teacher today (so hopefully you'll forgive the slightly lower priority afforded to updating the website). That section of the staff page will be updated once the process is complete.

"you cannot say it is a broad and balanced curriculum if only certain subjects are available"

A broad and balanced curriculum is a requirement for all Free Schools, and is one of the tests applied during the approval process. The TH curriculum is in-line with the National Curriculum, so it's very ill-informed to say it's not broad and balanced.

"you cannot say it is expert-led if the teachers teaching many of the subjects are either unqualified or have no experience of teaching the subjects"

All of the teachers are qualified and have experience of teaching the subjects. If that is not clear from the website, then thanks for the feedback - we will update it given time.

bluestars as this is a thread started by BayJay2, it does seems rude to 'bash' the school she is involved so closely with, even though it's a public forum. And you are right that, as a parent on the steering group she has supplied as much information as possible, and so has the website - perhaps she's even been involved with that too.

RET doesn't seem to have ambitions to take over more schools than it can feasibly manage, like AET did, so that's good. It's also had judgements of 'Good' and 'Outstanding' on two of its four open schools, so that's good too. But its schools have upset others (e.g. Bristol), Brentwood, Hove, Barnet because of admissions policies and impact on other schools. Not sure yet whether any of that can apply to Turing House until the final site is confirmed, and I do recognised completely the efforts of parents to mitigate concerns. But RET has appointed the teachers and been involved in site talks, so that might go beyond what parents can influence.

Kingston Academy is a free school too, but has followed a standard admissions policy based on distance. It's also invited applications according to the usual pan-London admissions policy. Of course, it did have a site. And to be fair, they haven't put pen portraits up on their website about their staff, so I wouldn't know if they have followed a policy of employing qualified teachers. I'd be very disappointed if they haven't done that.

If you do have another agenda or interest... it's worth declaring that upfront too.

I don't have another agenda or interest - no political or campaigning associations or anything like that. I came to the thread because of the RISC campaign and I was impressed by BayJay's extremely thorough and informative links.

As the thread is supposed to be about Richmond Schools, of which there are many - it does indeed seem to have morphed into a TH bashing thread. Maybe would be better to have a separate thread for TH. (Hopefully not to bash, although one poster does seem to be on a mission to do that)

"I don't have another agenda or interest"

Yes I know Muminlondon, that wasn't aimed at you. Whether you like it or not you're one of TH's most valued 'critical friends' and as you know I've put a lot of time and effort into this thread, answering your questions and making sure TH stands up to your scrutiny.

For the record, the steering group have been very involved in recruiting the teachers. I was at the maths and science interviews myself! I have also been very involved in updating the website. However, I have been to work today (I do have a day job!) and in any case the Head approves any changes to the site, and he has been busy interviewing today, along with another member of our steering group.

We have tweaked one bit of the staff page already, but you'll have to wait until later for the rest. Otherwise my kids won't get any tea tonight, and the administration that needs to be completed following a successful interview process just won't get done.

"Maybe would be better to have a separate thread for TH."

Oh, please, no. Here is fine and it will save everyone jumping around. As the momentum that led to TH was born out of this thread, it is the most appropriate place for the discussion.

The recent questions about TH do not amount to ‘bashing’: the website is a sales brochure written to promote the school. So it is good to to see it being read sceptically by a prospective parent; her questions would seem quite natural to a private school adapted to survive in a competitive market place. It may be that muminlondon has experience of quizzing private schools in the same manner.

Today’s Guardian politics blog (1714) reports Tristram Hunt as saying unequivocally that unqualified teachers would be ‘sacked’ but that he could barely give a straight answer to any of the questions directed at him:

. . Morgan asked if Hunt would tell 17,000 people they cannot teach, she asked? Hunt said if you’re not working towards qualified teaching status you don’t deserve to be in the classroom. Yes, he would fire them, he said . .

I´m sorry if I upset anyone, particularly those on here who are so intrinsically and directly involved directly with TH. I feel that these questions should be answered to prospective parents such as myself whose only source of information at present is a website and school brochure. I thought that a public unbiased forum such as Mumsnet would be appropriate to discuss it with other parents and I have no particular agenda myself.

I may be ´naive´ or ´rude´ or ´being very petty´. I´ll keep my questions to myself in future as I don´t think this forum is really the place for unbiased responses.

ZoeT it is the best place for informed responses, but a better place is the school website. All of your questions have, or will, have answers, so do re-email the school when you are ready to do so.

*Chris", most prospective parents contact the school directly and find they get a very good response. It's actually quite unusual to dive straight into a public forum (in fact 3 of them) and post comments about a school that isn't open yet - and questions that could only be answered by someone with close knowledge of the school. Luckily I'm here to do that, but if I hadn't been then reputations of real people can be damaged very quickly through the spreading of Chinese Whispers. That is why I put so much time and effort into doing this sort of thing.

And it isn't a private school. It is an academy.