New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3

[BayJay]

Hello and welcome to the Mumsnet thread about Richmond Borough Secondary Schools. The discussion started in February 2011 in two parallel locations here and here.

In November 2011 the most active of those two threads, in Mumsnet Local, reached 1000 messages (the maximum allowed) so we continued the conversation here.

Now its May 2012 and that thread has also filled up, so the conversation will continue here ......

I was shocked that the scrutiny commitee included two church representatives. It's like asking James and Rupert Murdoch to be on the jury for Rebakkah Brooks's trial. If we don't feel we've got a fair deal from the council members we can unelect them ... but am I right that we're disenfranchised here? As voters we have no come back. We're just stuck with them.

Tahdah, if people aren't happy with the way the Scrutiny Committee Meeting was conducted then they could complain to the Standards Committee.

Heliview, thanks. Can I assume there aren't any random un-elected church representatives on the Standards Committee?

Can we also be sure that there aren't any random atheists or other individuals who may have an anti-faith school agenda too? Just saying it works both ways so how is it ever truly impartial?

Limpbiscuit, my point on the Scrutiny committee is that there aren't any unelected representatives for parents who would like to see a science, or music, or maths, or english or modern languages or jewish or muslim or whatever education for their children. Why is special provision made for a catholic and CofE representative? If we are talking about existing schools (many of which are church based) I can see the point. But church representatives voting on whether there should be more church schools is like asking turkeys to decide on christmas. There is a prejudicial interest here surely?

Tahdah I get your where you are coming from. I don't know how the members of the committee are decided but yes I would assume the representatives from the Church are there due to the number of faith schools in the borough. All I was saying is that if a committee member was very anti-faith that could influence a vote against too.

To be clear, it is not necessary for any councillor or co-opted member to declare their religion. Religious beliefs are private.

The Diocesan Rep on the Scrutiny Committee may have had a prejudicial interest, because he represents the Archdiocese of Westminster, who is putting forward the VA proposal. If I interpreted his statement correctly, he was advised that his interest wasn't prejudicial because he isn't actually an employee/manager/director of the Diocese. He's a volunteer.

He is the rep for the Archdiocese of Southwark, not Westminster.

There were members of that committee who had signed the Risc petition, their position regarding the school was clear. The Lib Dems had also made their position clear before the meeting as in the consultation they state that they want the site held for a community school in 2015.

As I have said before, I think that the only person who went into that meeting with an open mind was the person who ended up abstaining.

Hi Magic. What's you take on why the pre-consultation was a partnership between Southwark and Westminster, whereas the proposal itself was just from Westminster?

Is that just because the site itself is in Westminster Diocese?

I really don't have any idea - I am an interested parent, rather than part of the proposal itself. I can try and find out though.

I feel it was disgraceful for Andy to vote and he did not follow the example set by Beverly. As a representative of the Proposers of the School, the honourable thing would have been to not vote on the recommendation.
I respect that other people had their views and preferences , but the democratic process was to evaluate the views of the members of public, before taking a vote, rather than just following the party line.

Needs of Twickenham parents v Wants of Catholic parents. Cabinet agenda released allows 6 speakers again on each side. It will be interesting to see how the parents put their case and how much support they get from their schools and governors.
www.richmond.gov.uk/home/council_government_and_democracy/democratic_processes_and_events/calendar_of_meetings.htm?mgl=ieListDocuments.aspx&CId=163&MId=2758

"the democratic process was to evaluate the views of the members of public" - No, this is not just what the O&S committe is all about - they would have been asking questions of the council officers only, as well as reading the reports if members of the public did not want to make statements.

The inclusion of CofE and Catholic representatives is enshrined in law.

As I have said before, as a co-opted member, Beverly would have had no vote anyway.

I can assure you, Andy Cole is one of the most honourable people you could wish to meet. I think it is disgracefu l that anyone would try and suggest otherwise.

Magic - You are undermining the views of the members of the public. They should be given same importance as that of Council officers in this case.

I am sure Andy is a honourable person, but I do not think his decision in this case was honourable

Suggest we draw a line under discussing individuals' decisions when they're not here to defend themseles. Jeev, I'm sure you could contact Mr Cole via Democratic Services if you wanted more explanation than he gave in his statement. You could also contact the council's monitoring officer via Democratic Services if you thought the legal advice he gave to Mr Cole wasn't correct.

From the RISC email this morning reporting the meeting:

. . What did become clear was the argument they will use to argue against our legal challenge, which is to claim that the Council does not consider there is a ?need? for a Catholic school in the sense of meeting its statutory requirements, but it ?wants? to have one in the borough. They?re now saying that because the key clause in the Education Act says that a Council that thinks it needs a new school must first seek proposals for an Academy . .

The Catholics have a word for this kind of reasoning: Casuistry: The science, art, or reasoning of the casuist; that part of Ethics which resolves cases of conscience, applying the general rules of religion and morality to particular instances in which ?circumstances alter cases?, or in which there appears to be a conflict of duties. Often (and perhaps originally) applied to a quibbling or evasive way of dealing with difficult cases of duty; sophistry.
. . c1740 Visct. Bolingbroke Idea Patriot King xi. 100 Casuistry . . destroys by Distinctions and Exceptions, all Morality, and effaces the essential Difference between Right and Wrong.

Jeev - you misunderstand the role of the O&S committee. The public are able to make representations only. The public's voice is important, of course, but when you said that the process was to evaluate the views of the public, this is simply not the case.

They were there to consider the report that was going to cabinet and decide whether to reccommend it.

I would just like to say I agree with Magic I think that Andy Cole more than justified his presence at that meeting with his initial speech. It was clear that he had carefully sought the advice of a number of people, which he outlined in that speech. As previously said we are a democracy where the voice of everybody should be heard. There were those that expressed that they were RISC supporters and had signed the petition against the Catholic school and they were not asked to leave and still allowed to vote. Both parties have clearly outlined where they stand so there really would have been no meeting at all if all these people were banned.

As somebody who was also present I would just like to say that I did respect the decision of the parent governor who abstained. She asked many very searching and sensible questions and obviously felt that she could see the arguments from both sides. As much as i would have loved for her to have voted in favour of the Catholic school I respect her decision because it clearly shows that she listened to the debate carefully and acted responsibly according to her conscience and the facts she had before her. I don't think we can ask any more of representatives on the council.

Please, please let us not go down the route of naming people and calling foul play. From where I was sitting the two sides spoke, were civil to each other and had plenty of time for questions, everybody had time to express their opinions. If you need further reaasurrance that everyones viewpoint was expressed I understand that all of the individual letters that were written to matthew paul regarding the consultation were also available to delegates and are still available to read on line.

So please let us keep this discussion to the point and focus on the topic not the people.

One very positve thing i feel came out of the meeting was that Councillor Hodges and Matthew paul etc discussed their plans for the bigger picture. Egerton road was discussed and it was clear that there is a planned schedule for the time to begin the full feasbility study. Talks have already been taking place with the college and they have been described as 'positive'. In additon the 4 free school proposals that have all made it through to the next stage were discussed and the hope for more free schools in future years in 2013,2014,2015, 2016 giving even greater choice for all parents was discussed. I think that there is so much exciting potential here for this borough and there is so clearly room for a variety of different educational choices. I hope that in the near future we can all start working together to make those dreams a reality for everyone as a family of schools

I am sick to death of reading that there is a wonderful chance for lots of free schools. There is only one decent site in Twickenham, which is the location where a new secondary school is needed, and that's Clifden Road. There isn't enough money or space for lots of free schools all over the place. Why would anyone want to work with the Catholic Church after the selfish and uncaring way it has behaved towards future generations of Twickenham children?

Lottie, Catholic children are also Twickenham and borough children too. The council is seeking to provide a greater choice across the family of schools. Free schools are not funded by the council but from seperate funds. Egerton road is half a mile away from Clifden and the plan I believe is for a larger 6 form entry school. I believe too that sports facilities may be better there than the Clifden site? You are not being asked to work with the Catholic church but other parents and children within the borough.

Were you at the meeting on Tuesday Lottie? Even Cllr Eady conceeded that a new school would not be needed until 2015 at the very earliest.

You seem determined not to accept any good news, as is your right I guess. Most other people are more than optomistic and confident in the great Free School applications.

Catholic schools are still working with non-Catholic schools right accross the borough, from the Queen's Jubilee celebrations to preparations for the Olympics and beyond. That will continue to happen at secondary level too.

I don't think it is selfish to continue to strive for our children to be educated in an in-borough Catholic school.
We all want what is best for our children, we just have different ideas about what that should look like.

Magic The Councils forecasts include 100 places at a Free School as early as 2013. The only Free School that could deliver that is the proposed Free School for Twickenham. They also assume that there will be fewer coming in from Hounslow (to our schools on the Middlesex side of the river) despite 450 more pupils leaving schools in Hounslow in 2015 than 2012, far exceeding their schools capacity and a 25% bulge in their birth rate. The Council's forecasts of no need rest on just 15 to 30 spare places at Twickenham Academy for the increasing number of Twickenham parents who will find themselves in black holes between the shrinking community school catchments. Once they are filled parents will have no choice but for their children to travel across the borough to Shene. Children are not like marbles used to fill up a jar to justify having bought it. The detriment to Shene School will be if it continues to be unable to attract local parents, Twickenham parents are even less likely to turn up to it if it involves a long journey. If they can afford it like so many parents in this borough they will feel forced to move or go private. I predict if Clifden Road is a Catholic School there will be a sudden surge in the number of parents willing to go through whatever hoops the local priest requires of them to recommend them for the school (and we both know those are not consistent) There are plenty of families like mine with a Catholic parent or heritage to rediscover.. But for some disadvantaged children (and the statistics show they are more likely to be non Catholic) it will be an excuse not to go to school at all. All of this will break up the commiunities that have formed in our childbirth classes, nurseries and primaries.

Of course Matthew Paul is going to say it will all be hunky dory, but ask the parents of children in South Hampton who are being sent out of borough because the Council failed to address a clear need, or the governors at Stanley he promised a rebuild 8 years ago. If that school is delivered the experience of non Catholic parents in Richmond is that it will more than likely be too little, too late.

If there is such a rich supply of sites and money to build new schools. I wonder why the Catholic Church doesn't go for a bigger site, where there is no risk it will be to the detriment of the needs of local children, and where it can have a bigger intake to meet demand? I am not against a Catholic School. I really hope the wants of the Catholic community are met but not at the expense of the wants and very possibly the needs of local parents.

I also do not understand why a Primary School is being crowded on to the small site when Matthew Paul, Education Officer of the Council accepts that there isn't sufficient demand for another Catholic Primary School here, whereas there is a shortage of primary places in non Catholic Schools that the ten community places will not solve (although I now understand why they were conceded). Could it be the shortage of space, sites and money for new schools?

I wasn't there, so can't really comment on the voting, but it was so close. I feel rather anxious about the implications of this. Mainstream non-faith schools can't be set up by an LA without a competition, and we may instead end up with a proliferation of small free schools that don't fit general needs, just niche 'wants'. If NLS4T gets approved and gets a really good site it would be a good thing and might reassure me a bit, but there are still hoops to jump. So LAs will be even more tempted to look to churches, mosques and synagogues to set up sustainably large enough schools for them. Fine if you're of the right faith, not so good if not.

I find it worryng, especially this 'wants but doesn't need' justification.

To be quite frank I couldn't care less about Catholic and non-Catholic schools working together on trivia like the Jubilee celebrations and Olympics. This is about children from my area being forced to travel long distances to RPA and, in a few years, having no place to go, and the Council spending £15 million of taxpayers money so that Catholic parents who want to avoid RPA and other local secondary schools can have a private school just for them. Copthall has once again very clearly set out the position. There is a need for another secondary school very soon that is open to all children. Whether it's needed in 2013, 2014 or 2015 is not enough to mean Clifden should be given to a privileged clique this year given the overall shortage of sites. Who knows what the study on Egerton Road will conclude. There is no obligation on the College to agree to being squashed into a smaller space to oblige Richmond Council. The impact of so many factors is still unknown that the Council is behaving utterly recklessly and should delay a decision until many relevant factors are clearer. I can only hope that they will be told to run a fair competition for the Clifden Road site when the matter reaches the High Court, although I'm sure they will still ultimately make the same decision if the Catholic Church proposes an Academy. I never had any faith that Lord True and his cronies and subordinates would decide anything other than to have a Catholic School but I am still very angry.

This year there are approx 150 children with no offer of a primary school place at all, obviously there is a huge need for new primaries open to all too and let's hope we have a new secondary by the time they progress through to that stage. I cannot understand why so many new sixth forms are proposed when there more pressing needs at an earlier stage.

The whole system seems so illogical...