Can I ask a couple of very honest questions of those who have moved to Australia?

[woosam]

I hope nobody is offended by my post, Im being honest to get the best advice possible as this is such a huge decision.

DH has been offered an excellent job in Melbourne. We need to make a decision by next Friday (have had a while)and we'd be going in October.

After reading everything I possibly can on just about every expat forum, there's something that is still holding me back and I'm not sure what it is.

Everything I read seems to say what a better standard of living it is. How the kids love it and how it's so much more of a family outdoorsy life. I'm wondering if this is true across the board? I mean, we have 3 kids, 2 in indie school, the other to follow. Six figure income, nearly an acre garden with tree house etc, lots of hols each year including an adventure/outdoor type one each year. We try to expose them to as much as possible regardless of the weather (yes, Im sure they'd rather watch tv one weekend).

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, is it going to be a better standard of living for us? I can see it is if you're living on a concrete estate, both working long hours to pay for it and you have a good trade qualification which means you can have a lovely house outside the commuting belts of either Sydney or Melbourne.

But I worry that other than the weather, we won't see much of an improvement in our standard of living yet we'll have uprooted the older two out of school (very difficult to get into in the first place)away from their friends etc.

I'm sorry if this sounds rude or blunt or self-absorbed. It's just that we only have a few days left to make an enormous decision and I owe it to my kids to make it the right one. Thank you.

Oh and if you disagree with me and know something I don't please, please tell me as I want to be as informed as possible.

I think you sound as though you have doubts and I can see why. Apart from more reliably good summer weather what else would you gain?

Half my family live in Australia and it's always so difficult to see them at all regularly. I would only go if you were sure life would be better for you: it's so far away, not like moving to France or even the eastern US.

I understand the point you are making. We are in much the same situation as you, good income, nice house, kids in good schools. We spent nearly a year in Sydney (Bondi/Bronte) when DD was nearly 2 and realised that our lifestyle there would not be much better if at all than our lifestyle here. Whereas, like you say, if we were really struggling here, couldn't afford holidays etc, moving there would probably have improved our lifestyles a bit, but not as much as if we have moved there, say 10 years ago. As the cost of living has gone up there a lot since I was there as a backpacker around 15 years ago. Sydney is comparable to London in terms of house prices and living expenses.

It must be a very hard decision for you, especially if the kids are settled in good schools.

We are now happy to be in the UK for the time being, but have not ruled out a move to somewhere like India at some point in the future.

My sister has just spent a year in Australia (in Melbourne) and desperately wants to come home. Her husband is Australian, and has spent the last ten years saying how Melbourne could offer them so much more and how he hates London (where they lived prior to the move). I don't think much of those benefits have materialised, at least for her. Now she's not happy, so obviously that flavours her feelings, but on the other hand she is the most positive person I know. The issues for her have been mostly losing all her friends and family (her ILs have been welcoming, but not I think as supportive as she expected). But of more relevance to you she says that Melbourne is expensive and getting more so, and that it doesn't really offer anything more than London did, and often less.

We ourselves moved from the UK to Western Canada, and our life has changed a great deal. However much of that change we could have achieved in the UK to be honest (it's mostly living somewhere more rural and outdoorsie). I'm happy here, but I was also happy in the UK. What we've lost is our family (we haven't been home in two years because it's just so expensive, and when we looked at the possibility of visiting my sister in Australia or even meeting up in LA we realised that flights from Melbourne to pretty much anywhere were also incredibly expensive) of course we talk to each other frequently, but that's really very different from spending time together, and the time difference is quite isolating too.

The other thing to bear in mind is the impact on your children. We moved when ours were 7 and 8, and although dd (the younger) has sailed through everything, ds found it incredibly difficult, and has only recently recovered in terms of having friends and settling at school (both socially and academically). Which leaves you with a further problem, if you stay for a while and then return you have to disrupt them all over again.

I suspect I am saying that if you have a very happy life now, then I'd be inclined to stay put.

It's not just about better lifestyle (which is all relative depending on your situation) but about life 'experience' too - do you want to try out living somewhere else for a while?

Would it be for a few years or permanent? Although it might involve upheaval for the kids I think it's easier when primary age - then stay put for teenage years IMO(so better go now if you're ever gonna do it!).

Only you can make the decision and know your priorities in relation to family & friendships (and the amount of support they offer) and how important sunny weather is etc..

Having said that I have recently moved countries with 3 young kids and found it incredibly hard (we plan to return for secondary school). But I think if we hadn't accepted the opportunity now we might have regretted it in the future and spent years saying what if????

My kids however have settled really well at school. They cope better than me!

Thank you everyone. Thanks for not judging me-I was really aware that my post could sound, not sure of the right word, aloof probably.

Redflipflops, I guess life experience is something to consider. I'm just so worried that this, 'better life' thing doesn't/wouldn't apply to us. That sounds horrendously arrogant but I'm really not, just don't know how else to put it.

It's an enormous step to take if the benefits are minimal or worse, if we end up worse off.
Thanks again for answering.

Thanks, Sooty. I don't think I'd regret not going. Maybe a little but it wouldn't grate at me IYKWIM. I sort of feel I've done the travel/work abroad bit. However, I do think DH would regret turning down the job. I worry that he'd resent my decision.

Nooka, your post struck a cord with me. I worry that DS will struggle whereas DD1 will sail through it as she does everything. DD2 is too young to be upset by it but I also worry about me. I worry about the isolation of not working and having a husband working long hours in the city. I had quite bad PND after DS due to a similar situation and I never want to go back there. Nooka, there must be a reason why a positive person like your sister is unhappy? The lonliness must be a killer.

Thanks again everyone. All really helpful. I'm feeling nervous now as we just have a few days left to make the decision.

I am married to an Australian and I lived there for 2 years after we married and had my first DC there.
Honestly? If you are happy and settled here then I don't see the point.
I think Australia offers people wonderful opportunities, but I think you are right with regard to the people it offers those opportunities to. Australia does not have the class system we have and gives working class people more opportunities and the chance to live a much better life. But if you have a comfortable, well off, middle class life here then no I don't think life would be better.
People talk about the outdoors life style, but I didn't really take advantage of it. It really was so, so hot, you can't leave the house without smothering yourself in sun cream. I was in Brisbane though so probably a bit hotter and certainly more humid than Melbourne.
Also, we didn't see any of Australia as it is so expensive to fly within and from. Obviously if you are earning $$$$ then this would be different.
It IS a wonderful country, but so is England, we just don't big it up so much!

I'm another one who has done the move, but ended up back in UK.

Australia is an amazing place, but different, not better, than the UK. We lived in Sydney for a while, which in terms of cost of houses etc, meant we were actually living in a smaller place than we have here in rural area in UK.

It does not sound like you will gain a lot, if anything, in terms of lifestyle. On the other hand it would be a fantastic experience. Would you consider moving there for a number of years and then returning home?

I experienced far greater home sickness (for family, friends and UK in general) than I ever imagined I would. Even though we had family and friends over there.

I'm glad I tried it, but even more glad to be back home (except for the odd twinge of doubt on bleak, freezing days in February!)

My sister is homesick I think. Also I think in most ways her life is worse, some of that is because of their family circumstances, and some to do with the fact that she was very happy in London and would not have chosen to move but for her dh's longing to go back to Australia. He I think is very happy. But they have a smaller house, more money worries (they didn't move for a better job though), similar school worries, no family network, and most important for my sister she has lost all her friends. As my BIL is (IMO) useless the friends were very very important. They did already have some friends in Melbourne (they've visited fairly regularly), but my sister had a group of very close friends in the UK, that she met up with regularly, with children of a similar age and now she just has phone calls. I think those the biggest problem is that I suspect BIL woudl like to stay in Australia permanently, and I doubt that was ever in my sister's plans.

my sister and her Australian husband moved to Australia from London because he wanted to go back. She was very happy in London having lived in the Caribbean for many years beforehand and really appreciated what the UK offers a woman in terms of being taken seriously in the business world etc

and it does offer a lot. People tend to underestimate what they have.

She was very homesick for quite some time in Australia although accustomed to living in different countries, cultures. She in the end resolved to make a go of it and now after 15 years or so is quuite settled and happy. She found it hard in the beginning with regard to friendships with other women which is saying something since she is very much a people person.

I am also inclined to say inyour shoes, don't leap into it or leave yourselves the option to return if at all possible.

What is different for her in a positive sense? I suppose having an outdoor pool you can use (but is that such a big deal?). She has a nice home, garden, good schools and a small weekend place at the beach which they can drive to in a few hours. They are all surfers these days.

UK though the equivalent might be sailing?

my sister is in OZ (brisbane) and after visiting her we gave some serious thought to making the move ourselves..

like you, we were weighing up exactly what we would gain.. we live very comfortably in the UK with a very 'outdoorsy' lifestyle. i found the heat of queensland restricted our activities more than the rain of the UK!

i also knew i would be homesick for family and friends, who would not be able to afford to visit us. i was worried about the children settling (teenage ds was homesick during our 4 week stay!) and vice versa about what would happen if the children settled and LOVED it, but we wanted to come home to the UK..

we decided we love England after all! but my sister (single, grown up kids) has now got australian citizenship, is very happy there and would rather eat her right arm than come back here.. so it's horses for courses i guess..

Woosam, roughly where do you live at the moment? If it is near any of the bigger UK cities I think you will not find Melbourne terribly appealing. Like many modern cities it doesn't compare to European cities IMO. And if you are out in the suburbs I think you are right to feel concerned about feeling isolated. I once read that Melbourne has half the population of London but covers twice the area.

Melbourne winters are about as miserable as UK ones - that came as a surprise to me.

I thought Australia was a great place for a holiday but not for me as somewhere to move to permanently.

I think you have pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you have a good income then the UK does have plenty to offer and a great range of entertainment.

I moved to OZ twice as a teenager due to my dad's work. I wouldn't say our standard of living improved because my parents could afford house/school/holiday/entertainment etc so we didn't see that benefit that others migrate for. (Well, except for sunshine and a swimming pool!)

Now that I have children I'm thinking of moving back but mainly because my family is still there. I do feel Oz has far more free entertainment and things for small children to do all year round but it is less diverse and we have concerns about where would be best when our children are university age.

Are you looking at it in terms of a temporary move or a place you would ultimately retire?

As an experience for a few years it might be enjoyable whilst your children are young (I hated moving as a teenager but have read other threads from ppl who really thrived on it). If the company is arranging everything then it could be pretty painless, especially if you are able to come back without being finacially disadvantaged.

Good luck whatever you choose!

woosam - you are not being self absorbed.

I cannot offer advice on Melbourne but am having the same thoughts as you as we plan to move to New Zealand next year. We too have 2 boys in independent Prep school, they do adventure style camps each holiday, we expose them to as much life experience as we can and we also live in a nice house, etc, etc. We have thought about it is as follows and it has made the decision much easier.

1. We are only initially planning to go for one year and will book a round the world ticket and promised we will come back to the UK if either of us does not like it in 12 months time. In essence it will then just have been a big holiday and nothing lost.

1. We are putting all our furniture in store and export wrapped in containers but will not ship anything until we both agree that we want to emigrate properly.

1. We will put our boys down for senior school in the UK and they will do exams before we go and just defer entry for a year. We have selected several private schools in NZ we like the look of in order to minimise the cultural change of school for the boys.

1. We have no house to sell as we rent so we will rent if we come back.

What I sugest is you/DH say yes to the job and plan a 1 year time horizon. Then it does not feel like you are going forever. Put the boys down for the best private school in Melbourne and take a round the world ticket so you can stop in various places as you come back. You will have to come back in 12 months to use a round the world ticket as that is one of the terms and conditons.

In the meantime rent out your house on a 12 month contract. If you want to stay on in Melbourne, come back after one year to sell your UK house and ship your belongings. If not, just come back anyway. Treat it as if it has been an adventure for your family. I am sure the children will love the experience anyway. Ask your children's school to hold places open for one year so they can slip right back in if you come back to the UK.

Good luck and enjoy the experience. Keep in your mind it is for only one year. You will still be able to be a MNetter.

Gosh, lots of posts!
Thanks you everyone for sharing your insights and experiences.
I will give some serious thought to the idea of treating it as a family adventure. Trouble is I keep coming back to the idea of losing 'our place'. By that I mean our current good jobs and the school places.

I also worry about silly things like missing the theatre (we go regularly) and Waitrose and John Lewis and weekends in The Lakes. I do know I'm being silly. Also, I like fleeces and hats and scarfs and winter walks in the woods and I'm not a big sun lover.

I know I sound like a grumpy old woman but it helps to write it all down. It gives me some perspective.

Oh and, yes, it is a temporary move. The job is an internal move for DH and they want him over there for 3yrs. In some ways that's harder as they'd def expect him to stay til it's done. Yet even if we all settled beautifully, we know we'd need to pack up and come home again at the end.

Beenbeta, your idea sounds great but I'd just feel in limbo and would worry about the school situation too much. Have you looked on the NZ part of the expatforumdotcom website? Whilst there's lots of positive posts, there's also one particular thread started by someone called Pic (I think) saying how disappointed they were by NZ. How it's not the place to go if you're high earning, high achieving and want more than mediocrity. Lots of disagreement but also quite a few in broad agreement. Maybe one for you to read if you've not already done so.

Everyone on here has been so helpful. Sleepless night tonight I think! confused]

woosam - thank you for the tip about expatforum. I will take a look. TBH some people in RL have said similar things to us about NZ being a bit backward and uncultured - hence our decision to go for just one year and see if we like it.

Although, tat said I have heard similar adverse comments about Australia but some people clearly like it too. Melbourne I have heard is the most cultured and European of all Australian cities so theatre etc may well not be a problem.

I have to say, after living in Oz for 2 1/2 years "weather schmeather" - you notice the nice weather at first, but then you just get used to it to be honest!

We moved from the UK because we fancied a change, had no children and wanted to escape from our rather tedious life of "get up, drive to station, commute to London, work, come home, eat dinner, watch TV, sleep".

And we have done that, but at a cost. We DO have a better standard of living, in that we have a big house, 25 minutes from work, so we have our evenings back. We live 20 mins from the beach and 20 mins from the country so we spend a lot of time walking etc, and we do have more disposable income, mainly because our house is cheaper. Other things are good like healthcare, the streets feel safe, the people have a real "can do" attitude.

BUT, I really miss my family and friends still, I also miss the proximity to Europe and the USA. My job is less interesting and where I work is kind of sexist and backward. Any culture is a distant dream and although the people are pretty friendly, I do feel like an outsider.

My DH feels like where we live is the death of all ambition despite the fact that he has risen very quickly in his job. We are actually probably planning a move back to the UK in 3-4 years, or maybe a move on to the USA.

So, I don't think moving here was a mistake as there are loads of bits that I love, and would really miss if we do move away, but it really depends what is most important to you. I would probably do it again, as an adventure, I like travelling and exploring and we have done loads of this here.

But can I see myself here in 15 years? Honestly, not really. It's still not really home to me.

My sister says that Melbourne thinks it has culture, but in comparison to the UK it really doesn't. I'm not sure why you think you are being silly. You clearly have a really enjoyable life right now, and moving is a huge risk for uncertain returns. I think the problem with treating moving overseas as an adventure is when it isn't. In a lot of ways your life will be exactly the same, with added complications (finding a nice place to live, finding schools, learning how new systems work for banking, tax, healthcare and everything else which will be almost but not quite the same as the systems you know). I had a friend who took three months off and traveled with her 7 year old around South America. Now that was an adventure . In some ways I wish we had done something similar -it might have been more memorable, and it certainly would have been cheaper! Of course lots of people really really enjoy moving and have a great time, but there is a lot of slog involved, and chances are you are the one who will be doing most of it.

Just reading this thread rather than cook dinner!!! Only wanted to add one thing, (we are in NZ) I think 1 year would be long enough to 'have an adventure or an experience' but I'm not sure 1 year is long enough to make a decision whether to relocate for good or not. It takes almost that long to settle (or it certainly did for me). I said I would come for 2 years and decide, I wanted to leave after 2 but dh persuaded me to give it one more year. He quite rightly pointed out that I hadn't given it a fair go as in the back of my mind I was going home after 2. Nearly 8 years later I'm still here and glad I gave it the chance it deserved in the 3rd year.

I could talk at length about the pros and cons of NZ but at the end of the day I have grown to think if in doubt give it a go at least you can't look back and think what if......

Sorry I meant to add that last bit about giving it a go is not just about NZ but anywhere, even if a different part of the UK!

I think the best reason to move to Australia is for a chance at a NEW life - the people I meet over here that have come for a BETTER life seem very bitter about the UK, but aren't particularly happy here either.
Could you not see it as a "year out" initially? Let your house and see how it goes?

The pros are worth it even if its just for a short time. The kids can live outside all year round, if you're near the sea they will have the games lessons in the sea during summer and will learn to surf. The schoolkids always seem so happy here. You'll be able to show them sights that they would never dream of seeing in europe - barrier reef/uluru/outback/deserted beaches with kangaroos/beautiful birds etcetc. It could be an amazing experience for both them and you. You'll see a change in their health almost immediately. DD is much fitter and stronger than she was in the UK....They will be the envy of their friends when they return. Much lower fuel bills, cheaper petrol...Amazing holidays by the sea...
I've met a number of people who have taken their kids out of school in the UK for a year to do this and they've loved it.
Ok, thats the positive side done, now the cons....
You are too far away to visit family regularly, so are reliant on skype.The cost of living in most Oz cities is far higher than in the UK. High rents, crazy prices at most supermarkets. You have to be on high alert for spiders/snakes esp. if you're living further out. It will take time to make new friends and as much as we seem the same there are some very obvious cultural differences, so its about adapting to the area you live in. You have to drive everywhere - the best (and cheapest) places to buy food and clothing will always be on the outskirts of the city.
I won't go on but if you are happy where you live and aren't one of those people who likes to be uprooted, then I'd say stay at home. I have been on a whirlwind journey here through the biggest highs and lows of my life. We will be returning to the UK next year, though DH may continue working in Sydney (he loves it here). I have found that DD being an only child is vunerable to being lonely, as am I. I have so many good friends here, as she does, but when xmas/birthdays come round you can't help but imagine what life would be like with family at home and there are times when friends just can't be there for you...
I would never turn back the clock though. This experience has been the making of us all.
Good luck with your decision - just remember that the grass is never greener, but a change in life can sometimes open your eyes to so much more.

I'm from NZ and now live in Luxembourg (and have also lived in UK and France). I also moved back to NZ with my French husband for 5 years before coming back to Europe because he missed it too much.

I don't think you're self-absorbed, I think it's a decision you need to make very carefully.

It doesn't actually sound to me as if you would have all that much to gain from Australia - you like winter and aren't that keen on heat, you already have a good life with plenty of outdoors stuff going on, you like the theatre and stuff the UK has to offer, and I think you would miss the kind of shops you have.

I guess I think that this kind of move is a huge stress on an individual but also on a couple's relationship, and you have to be really motivated to get through the hard times (of which there are inevitably many - all the complications of setting up a new life, plus loneliness, distance from family and friends and the time it takes to make new friends, not to mention cultural differeces). If you're kind of lukewarm about it (which is perfectly valid and you shouldn't beat yourself up about it) then I wouldn't do it. Also I think many Europeans in Australia/NZ do really miss the sense of history and find it hard to cope with the lack of old buildings etc. I don't know if it's a lack of culture exactly - there is culture in NZ for example if you know where to find it, but it's different and certainly society in general doesn't value history and culture in the same way.

I also think there are plenty of ways to find adventure and give your children life experience without necessarily moving to the other side of the world if you're not that keen!

How keen is your DH to make the move? and how old are your children?

I'm not sure if anyone has asked this yet - what about the family you'll leave behind? Will they be OK to come and visit?

DH and I had the opportunity to move to NZ when I was PG with DD, we turned it down in the end because we didn't want our parents to be unable to see her (neither of them are good flyers)

Sibble - lots of food for thought in your post. Maybe 1 year is too short.

The 1 year horizon is I guess in our minds is a kind of get out clause 'it was just a holiday' if we utterly hate it. I notice woosam has also a sort of medium term 3 year horizon and we have set ourselves a 4 year horizon in which we have to properly establish a business and commit our lives. We should know by then.