Singapore - encouragement and advice

[AnotherMotherNomad]

Hello!

I've read a few posts on here about Singapore and I am looking for some advice. DH has been offered a role out there and very much wants to move. I'm not so keen, but am trying to remain open to it.

I have been there a few times, and we lived in Hong Kong for a while before DD was born, so I have some idea of what overseas life would be like there.

We live in London now, and I'm one of those people who love it. My concern is that Singapore is going to be a bit too small & sleepy for my tastes. We live in artsy, edgy East London now, and I'm reluctant to say goodbye to eclectic markets, trendy boutiques, going to galleries.. that sort of thing. This aside, I recognise that there are many positives to Singapore: weather, child friendly, safer, good travel opportunities.

I'm not from the UK anyway, so I'm not so much worried about missing English things.. or even about schooling (DD is only 18 months, and I don't think we'd stay longer than 2 years).

Anyway, if any of the very helpful Singapore-based mumsnetters are about, I'd love to say hi, get some ideas from you (especially on housing), and any words of encouragement would be kindly welcome!

Hi Nomad

We've been here for 2.5years now and have an 11mo DS who was born here. We were also in London for about 8 years before coming here but actually wanted to move out as we were getting fed up there (mainly with the commute and we didn't even live that far out).

Yes Singers is small and quite quiet compared to London and HK but IMHO the positives (many of which you have listed) do outweigh the negatives.

In terms of housing it is still v.expensive but will depend on what you are looking for and whether DH will get any housing allowance or what budget you have but happy to help further if you have specific questions.

2 years is a pretty short time and the advantages of living abroad and having the opportunity to travel in the region are great - plenty of markets, boutique shops and galleries around.

Hi Expectant! Thanks for the lovely reply. I think that hearing from people who are there and love it will make me feel a bit better about the idea. I am trying hard to not think about it as a place of shopping centres!

The housing questions I have are exactly that it seems to be very expensive! Obviously we are lucky in London in that we bought in an 'up-and-coming' area years ago, so now we are benefiting from low mortgage and a vibrant area. We have a lovely 3 bed house with garden. It seems like to have something even remotely similar is going to be way out of our price range over there. In fact everything seems out of current price range!!

DH's offer is not an expat one, so there is no housing allowance . In fact what they have offered is basically the same pay as he earns here (but only after you take into consideration the tax difference). There are no added incentives, allowances, or similar. They only offered us one way flights there! I work part-time here, so we also have to consider my loss of income. (It doesn't seem like a great deal to me!! But DH is really keen to go).

In any event, should we decide to come, do you have any good tips on areas and housing? I am looking for something with a bit of character - rather than a shiny new build. I would love a garden, or at least some private outdoor space - maybe a terrace? In HK we lived in a high-rise serviced apartment (since we were there less than a year). It was alright, but I'm not keen on the 'condo' idea now that we have DD. At the very least I would prefer a low-rise. Also, if you have any guidance on price range? Prices seems to vary tons. Without any sense of what makes something more or less expensive, it's really difficult to gauge.

Sorry to bombard you with questions! I looked at the Singaporeexpat site for properties, but I found it overwhelming and confusing.

Thanks again for your reply!

Hi Nomad!
I'm in Sg, have been here for 4 years and am so happy here! I have 2 sons, aged 14 m and 6 y. At the moment we live in a condo on the East Coast, and pay $6000 a month, which is stupidly expensive, but the housing market is slowing down and prices are getting much more reasonable. In a month or so we will be looking for a house to rent and the price range for houses in the east is between $ 2500 and $ 5000, for 3-4 bedroom places.

I guess that's no use to you if you're not planning on staying in the east - we love it but people from the popular expat areas (Holland, Tanglin etc) seem to think it's the back of beyond!

Have a look at this website

www.propertyguru.com.sg/

A friend of mine is a property agent and she reckons this one is much better than the singaporeexpats one, as it's updated more regularly and has a better range of properties.

Re stuff to do here, I'm finding it more interesting the longer I'm here. It's not all shopping centres (although we do spend a fair bit of time at Vivocity - check it out if you come!) There are so many outdoor sport and leisure things, parks, etc. We are not club types but apparently there are a few clubs that have good facilities - British Club, Tanglin Club etc). Lots of museums and art exhibitions - obviously not going to compare to London but the scene is thriving here and there is a definite almost edgy underbelly if you look hard enough! Free magazines like IS and Idle Banter are really good, and there is a Singapore TimeOut now.

Let me know if you do arrive - all my friends have children ds1's age and ds2 needs playmates!

Sorry www.propertyguru.com.sg/

AnotherMotherNomad - is DH being offered this role by his current employer? If so, the terms he is being offered are appalling and I would not go. You are facing enormous currency risk and you may never be able to come back to the UK unless your standard of living is protected at UK levels and prices.

The other thing is that I found Singapore a pretty souless place compared to London. If you like edgy London you will go mad in the plastic air conditioned shopping malls. If you are living in an apartment block you wil look out to sea and see line upon line of ships anchored out at sea like a steel ring around the place. It will feel like a prison.

I used to travel there and I could not live there. A lot of people travel over to Malaysia for restaurants and fun and to get away from the 'controlled' atmosphere of the place. Everything is monitored. Safe, law abiding, but sterile.

Bottom line is if you are on a good ex pat package it is tolerable as you will be rich and can afford to travel, get away from the place and enjoy yourself. If you are not on expat package you will be stuck there.

If your DH is out of work having a job is better than no job but does not sound a great option.

Hi Irritable! Thanks so much for your reassurances, and that link. I've been browsing all evening and am pleased to see that there are some housing options with character, that will not bankrupt us! I looked at the East Coast, since you mentioned it and tbh, it's all the same to me at this point.

How would you describe the different areas? I'm not bothered about living with other expats. Would prefer an area with atmosphere. (thus East London! and when we were in HK we lived on the Kowloon side far away from the expat clusters).

I'll definitely let you know if we do come. I'm sure I'll be asking a million and one questions between now and then, so I apologise in advance. Thanks again!

Hi ABetaDad: I know I know I know! I know exactly what you are saying. It's what keeps running through my head non-stop. (The "ships as a steel ring prison" is a rather poignant image).

But I'm trying not to focus on the sterile, shopping-centre-lifestyle reputation of Singapore, and think about it as a potential experience. DH and I love to travel, and that is really the driving force behind his desire to go. He sees it as a way for us to spend a few years traipsing around Asia with DD. He is imagining many weekend breaks in places like Bali, rather than seeing this as two years in Singapore.

And, yes the terms are not great, and so we are negotiating. He is currently only a contractor for the same organisation, so it's not exactly like for like. As a contractor he doesn't get any benefits, pension, paid holidays, etc., but pay is higher, iyswim. This job would be on employee terms, thus inclusive of these benefits, so I think that is why the offer is poor on paper. (well not just on paper!) At any rate, we are not desperate, so we won't be making any move if it puts us in a worse position then we are now. You are very right!

We live in a high rise condo on the East and looking out at the ships I've never once thought of the 'steel ring prison' analogy - more of a moving landscape that is endlessly fascinating! All my visitors have thought the same. Horses for courses though eh?

If you want an area with character and a bit of, for want of a better word, dirt, Joo Chiat/Katong is great. There are lovely old shophouses and some of the best food on the whole island can be found here. Katong Laksa is quite famous. Joo Chiat has the reputation of being a red light area, along with Geylang, but it's not particularly dangerous - saying that you should not let your guard down!

That's one of the best things about SG; the closeness to other destinations in SE Asia and the ease of travel means you can have some fab holidays. A month ago my husband took ds1 for a long weekend to Phuket - left Friday and back Monday. Ds2 and I didn't go as he is at the tricky stage and is better off at home! Friends of mine do things like scuba trips to Malaysian islands, climbing Mount Kinabalu, Penang, Taman Negara Nat. Park in Malaysia..all these places are on your doorstep.

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking all SG has to offer is shops and nothing else, it's just not true. It makes me feel very protective of this place. Admittedly I've never lived in London and am not a city person, so I haven't had to give up that lifestyle, but there is a lot more here than meets the eye.

One more thing, as your dd is so young you won't have to fork out on school fees, which is one of if not the largest outgoings we have, but then there is always the option of choosing a local school over an international one. DS1 went to a local preschool and was very happy there.

Please ask anything else you want! I am leaving for a months holiday in the UK tomorrow but will be able to check in from time to time.

Grizzly the propertyguru website is great much better than the Expat one.

Nomad we do live in a condo very near to the CBD where we both work. I'm working part time and the location was really important to us because of the whole commute thing. I also wanted a garden etc when we came here but have settled quite happily into condo life. Ours is quite big (in terms of number of appartments) but has large grounds and is only about half full so never seems too crowded. That said I would recommend East Coast houses as larger/cheaper and with gardens but I think I would miss the pool and facilities which are great for kids - maybe you would consider a cluster/townhouse which has the benefits of being self-contained but still has shared facilities like the pool? The properties in general are much much larger than those in Hong Kong and older condos tend to be larger than newer ones.

DH and I are also on local employment contracts (although he gets a housing allowance) and have managed to save money and pay off our debts whilst being here which I don't think we'd ever have done if we were still in London but it's well worth getting some advice on the whole pension and tax thing to see what would happen after 2 years or if you were out of the UK for longer.

We've travelled lots since being here. DS has already been to Thailand & Indonesia (plus back to the UK) and we have trips booked to Perth, Macau, Thailand (again) and Vietnam later this year and he's not even 1 yet! I don't remember being on a flight till I was about 10 years old. The arrival of the budget airlines has definitely helped and Changi is so well organised and a pleasure to travel to and from that if you are travelling back on Sunday afternoon/evening at least you know you'll be through immigration and in a taxi and home well within 1 hour no matter where you live in SG! I don't imagine anyone could say that of a London airport

I've just left Singapore after 5 years and don't miss it at all. I wasn't unhappy there exactly, but I did find it very dull. It's such a personal thing. I hate Vivocity with quite some passion, for example. Eh. I wouldn't go if you're not going to greatly benefit career-wise.

I'm watching this thread with interest. We have just returned from Sg where dh was offered a permanent position for a reasonable package. I'm very reluctant, but feel I am holding dh back. DD's are nearly 4 and 6 and so I visited some international schools and was really disappointed with them. Also I would probably not be able to work as school hours are so short and I would not want a maid to be looking after the children for long periods. I am also really concerned about being isolated and having difficulty in making friends as dh does not work for a big company where there are other british families to get to know.

Geisha you certainly wouldn't find making friends here difficult especially with your 2 DDs particularly if you live in a condo. We don't socialise with many of DH's work colleagues and I am the only expat (apart from my boss) where I work but have not found it difficult to meet people here.

DS is 1yo so not so clued up on the school thing but I'm working part time (mornings only). I'm not sure what you do but it may be an option.

Hi Nomad I've been in Sing for over 2 two years and it's not too bad but I would try and get a better package. If your planning to live like a local then food and accommodation isn't that expensive but if you're shopping at cold storage for western food and paying international school fees its as expensive as London.

We were a bit shocked at our outgoings and struggled for a bit. I started working part time and have never looked back! Not only do I love my job but I earn money to pay for the kids school fees. I would never had the opportunity to train and do my job in London. My kids don't go to Tanglin (its sooo expensive) but we spend $30k+ on school fees every year. (2 in prechool)

The travel is great if you like asia, and even Australia is close by. Lots of people go to Margaret River in WA for winter get aways. Thats the thing I miss the most - seasons!!!

Hi Nomad,

Life in Singapore is easy but the best thing about it I reckon from your point of view will be the travel. If you are used to an edgy life.. yes, you may find it dull. It is a wonderful family posting and I think for the NOT families there is a sort of Hong Kong type clubbing culture.

But for all else you will need to travel outside Sing (which you need to do anyway or you will go insane). Try to make sure your income will allow you to travel as much as possible and you should be ok.

It sounds like a terrific opportunity but don't burn your bridges in the UK, I'm sure you know this.

There is actually a thriving modern art scene in Singapore, and a lot of "high end" culture available very cheaply at the Esplanade.

I guess it's all been said.

My impression:It's a great place to procreate and entertain young children.

If you are planning a baby, great! otherwise, think twice. Sounds like you'll be bored senseless.

Anyway, if you need advice on housing just shout. it's my job.
Prices ARE still high.

Now if your plan is to travel as much as you can for 2 years, then yes do come. Lots of budget airlines and cheap destinations to discover.

Hello again! I started this thread ages ago when my DH was offered a job in Singapore. Everyone gave me such great advice, for which I was ever so thankful... and then I disappeared! So sorry. DH rejected the offer and I didn't think twice about it. (Would be great if MN sent email alerts when there are responses to threads so you know to respond).

Fast forward many months, and DH has been offered another better role, with better terms, and he really really really wants to take it. I would still prefer to stay in London. It's not an easy marital decision to make. I've agreed to come out for an initial visit the 2nd week of January. I think everyone at his work understands that this visit is to convince me that it is a great place to live.

So, I am wondering if any of the lovely Singapore based MNers on here have any suggestions for our itinerary? We wanted to check out a few potential neighbourhoods, or even to have a look at housing. We'll be with our DD (2). Any suggestions for activities for her? Again, I really want to be positive about this, so that if we do move I don't spend 2 years moaning. Any encouragement would be so gratefully appreciated! Thanks again!

Hello again!

Unfortunately have to say the prices are still as high as ever but there are some good finds.
East coast is actually getting more expensive as a lot of expats have flocked there in the last couple for years. So good standard properties come with a correlated price tag.

Here are a few areas you should check out.

I would certainly suggest opting for a shophouse. That is a "alternative" as you can get. They have lots of character but they are often quite basic on the lower end of the price range so you'd have to be prepared to do a bit of self improvement/decorating.

Joo chiat/Katong on the east coast would certainly fit the bill. There are also a few nice low rise (4 storey) condos close to Geylang (red light district) which would be as close to east london as you can get in terms of having a bit of a "vibe".

Chinatown would also be a possibility, in the vincinity of Club street/ An Siang Hill/ersekine road/red dot museum. That's very "urban" and quite trendy, but hey, it's still singapore so we are talking about a few blocks.

The area around the river (robertson quay) is good for young couples. One of the only areas in singapore where you can walk around and find local shops and lots of late night restaurants/bars/shops.

An underrated area that is being regenerated at the moment is around little india/Mackenzie/Niven road.
A few shophouses there.

I can try and round up a few properties for you to see or you can simply have a stroll around those areas and let us know what you think?

If you come out here knowing it's to make the most of those 2 years, enjoy the sun, maybe learn a language, thyen you WILL be fine!

Try a small Black and White.

I can't remember how you get the list but they are lovely with gardens and sometimes a pool, or you can put a pool in. Cheaper Black and Whites are down on Faber Hill, just round the corner from Alexandra Park. Don't be distressed if you go and see one and it looks ropy. The landlords (government based organisations) will renovate everything before you move in, including grinding floors, repainting, changing sockets and so on. Just ask. And google images of Black and Whites so you know what you will be looking at.

Black and Whites often have very nice communities around them and they are great for the space.

Alexandra Park is expensive, Adam Drive is nice and not too expensive.

Depends on your package as with a black and white you have to put everything in, including air cons and white goods, even boilers sometimes, so you might have to buy them off the previous owners. With the right package your employer will do that as Black and Whites are often cheaper than fully furnished.

Shophouses mean stairs and little outside space to me but if that's what you are used to they are very pretty. Kind of city-ish with less of a community ime.

Although you won't be looking at schools, take a visit and have a look at the noticeboards, especially at Tanglin and UWC. Also visit the British Club and Dutch Club (just to "have a look!") and look at the noticeboards there.

Call the nurseries and see if they have a newcomers' list of people to help.

Yes small black and whites a great option, only they are all in quite "remote" areas so was not sure appropriate if you want urban living.

Most of these properties are rented out by the government and you have to apply through a bidding system.

here is the link

the area peacoks suggested is lovely. Lush greenery and treetops walk at kent ridge & hort park walking distance. 10mn drive to tanglin/orchard/rivervalley and 10mn drive to the sea/sentosa the other way.

Some are available on the private market such as these not far from little india;

here

wow that link! it was all scrappy photocopies and hard to get hold of in my day

gosh not much there though malcolm road looks nice

AnotherMotherNomad - we also aren't from the UK originally and so have moved before. We tend to think that certain places can suit you for certain stages of your life. As Slim highlighted, it seems that Singapore is great if you are raising young children but not so good if you are still in your clubbing years.

I'm also a bit worried about missing all the great things about London but I've decided it's a great opportunity to throw myself into new things (she says having no solid ideas yet on what aforementioned things are ). However, the move there is now a reality for us and having worked my way through all my concerns, I'm really excited about it.

Hey there everyone! Just reading through the threads from anothermonthernomad - some great advice for such a big life change as moving abroad.

We're in the final stages of moving out - container arriving 29 January and we arrive 31 Jan!

Slimm22 would love some advice on housing - how do I get through to your links? Dont seem to show on my computer? are we allowed to exchange emails on this site? dh starts work in Singaore on 8 Feb so have 1 week once we get there before he starts and would like to set up some veiwings for a coulpe of days. Whats the best way to get in touch?

hi Louise, email me on [email protected]

speak soon!