Swiss visas after child reaches 18

[ChristmasLightsAndSparkles]

I'm looking into the possibility of moving to Switzerland, and want to understand the situation for the whole family. In particular, we'd probably be looking to move in a couple of years, but I want to understand the consequences of timing for DD (currently 12) and her right to stay and work in Switzerland once she comes out of education.

Sorry, this will be quite technical, in terms of visa types and consequences!

• I'm a dual UK/EU citizen, but need to get the paperwork done to 'assert' my EU nationality, which will probably take about 18 months. I have family background there and Swiss extended family, but don't have Swiss nationality myself.
• DH is British but may be able to get Irish nationality by descent (great-grandparent).
• DD(12) is UK only - I don't think either of our EU descent rights extend as far as her.

I'm a native French speaker, but DH and DD don't speak French or German currently. But would obviously learn! DH and I both have in-demand work skills, so should be able to find jobs.

So:

• I should be able to get a B permit, and as an EU citizen could get a C permit 5 years later

• DH could either do the same if he gets Irish nationality, or come as my dependent (then move to C permit after either 5 or 10 years)
• But what about DD??

If we come when DD is 16.5 - which is a natural break point for her educationally, then she'll have 1.5 years before age 18 (which counts double - so 3 years) then probably 3 years at university.

So when she graduates and needs to look for a job, she'll have 6 years.

So my question is:
If I've got my C visa (should just get it by then!), would DD get a C visa at age 21 as my dependent? Or would she need 10 years residency, as she herself is a non-EU citizen? And would that last her for 5 years, until she had built up enough residency to get the C visa in her own right? I expect that getting a grad job on a B visa would be tricky!!

If she had to wait for the 10 years residency in her own right, then I wonder whether we need to move to Switzerland earlier, by the time she's 14.5. Otherwise she may end up having to move back to the UK. But that doesn't give us much time and isn't such a good change point for her.

Timing is tricky - I wish we'd come to this decision 5 years ago!

I'm a dual UK/EU citizen, but need to get the paperwork done to 'assert' my EU nationality, which will probably take about 18 months. I have family background there and Swiss extended family, but don't have Swiss nationality myself.

Are you Swiss or other EU? Why would it take 18 months to get an EU passport? Do you intend for your Dd to go to an international school?

Your DH can apply for Irish Citizenship with Irish parents or Grandparents, NOT great grandparents, unfortunately for him.

It's a long time since I was in Switzerland and I can't help you with details, but when I was there getting visas from companies didn't seem that difficult compared to other EU countries and the UK. At least in the big cities, they felt pretty open minded about hiring internationals and sponsoring them.

We're an international family. I don't have Swiss nationality. I have an EU nationality from birth - ie I don't have to aquire nationality, just get the paperwork. It's sometimes relevant that you have it from birth rather than acquire it. I've never got round to doing the paperwork, and it apparently takes up18 months.

That's really good to know. From what I've read, the burden on employers is higher for non-EU citizens: the employer needs to show they can't get the skills in either Switzerland or the whole EU!

I think an employer would potentially go to that trouble for DH or I (we have shortagecskills), but not for DD when she's newly graduated. That's why I'm trying to figure out how we can make sure she'd get to stay if she chose. We won't settle long term in a country she can't settle in.

DH's father applied for Irish nationality after Brexit, and has that now.

But often nationality by descent requires the parent to have the nationality at the time the child was born. I'm not sure how Irish nationality by descent works though - would DH be able to get it since his father now has it?

I'm less worried about that, since DH can definitely get a visa to match mine through family reunification, and his skills are worth employers making an effort for.

It's DD I'm trying to figure out, since her dependency visa through me will only last until she's 21, and as a new graduate her skills won't fit the shortage criteria.

What EU nationality do you have? Why can’t you use that nationality to get your daughter hers? Plus you could apply for your husband as well as spouse if the rules allow?

I say this because I’m married to an EU national and got my EU nationality for his country via spouse route. Our children were automatically nationals of said country because of their father and automatically British due to me. It was just a matter of applying for passports after filling out a form.

I'm French by descent, but was born in the UK. I spoke to an immigration lawyer (just about the French nationality not Swiss visas: it was a while ago before we were thinking of moving to Switzerland) who said that she might get it but possibly not since I wasn't born there. And I need to get mine signed off first before I can apply for hers - so whilst I'll do it in parallel, I won't know whether it will be successful until it's too late.

DH could apply for spousal French nationality, but it won't make much difference. He'd get a Swiss visa that matches mine anyway through family reunification.

It's DD's which is tricky, since she won't be a dependent for long enough to accrue non-EU residency.

I think it comes down to whether she can a) get a C visa through me and have it last 5 years to get her through to 10 years residency or b) Qualify for fast-track (5 year) residency. Otherwise we need to move there sooner! (but I'd rather not, as I said).

I don't think it would be fair to put her in a different language school at this age, so I'm thinking international school, alongside intensive language learning so that she's ready for university in a different language!

Your DH can't get Irish citizenship. His Irish parent needs to have had Irish nationality at the time of his birth.

Ah, fair enough. Thanks for that confirmation.

Ah I see so your French citizenship ends with you. cannot be passed on to your children due to the type you have. It’s similar for children born to British citizens abroad they’re given British citizenship by descent which cannot be passed on.

I’d get your husband French nationality, it would remove a number of barriers for him should you wish to work or live in the EU. It’s a no brainer especially when there’s a good chance they may change the rules in the future to make it harder.

For your daughter I’d be making tracks now to move over there to get her on a dependant visa so she can put the relevant time in to eventually obtain citizenship. The longer you leave it the harder it will be. Yes, in tandem I’d investigate if somehow you could get her French citizenship because of course that then removes all hurdles. Best of luck

I had a quick look at the AI summary of the rules. She'd go onto a B permit at 18, but could stay with a University place and she has to be speaking French/German (she needs to anyway for jobs). I guess as an already semi-international family you've got a plan for language acquisition. Hopefully she's science minded because that's a 5 year study and then if you've chosen Canton carefully, she can convert to a C permit in her own right. That commits her to studying in Switzerland though. If she goes abroad, she's unlikely to come back apart from for holidays so then your problem is solved.

My kids are only British by decent. We're trying to work out the optional naturalisation strategy so that we come out with the highest combined number of passports and best study options, so I feel your pain!

It is very tricky! And you have to balance current life angainst future options for everyone with different mixes of birth places and nationality rights for different family members!

That's a really interesting idea that she could keep studying for 5 years. DD is science-minded, but with a more practical bent than theoretical: which fits well with how Swiss education works, but also made me assume only 3 years of study for a bachelors (I think that starting work as quickly as possible is worthwhile). But actually I think Switzerland (like many European countries) values additional degees so it's definitely another option to consider - thanks!

What did you spot about different Cantons, if you don't mind explaining? The different rules do make it trickier! I think it's likely to be Zurich, since that would give DH and I the best options for work, and it has great universities if she manages to get a place in them. A French-speaking area would be easier for me - but since DH and DD aren't fluent, I don't think that advantage is sufficient to offset job opportunities. But other advantages for residency for DD might tip that balance.

Language is definitely a barrier! But a lot of my family have moved into countries with different languages at different times, so I'm not too afraid of it. I've seen that school - when you still have a wide range of subjects, need to write essays, and your peers are less multi-lingual/open-minded - is harder than University (assuming science-type degree) or work. So I'm inclined towards International school for DD - but we'll make efforts to integrate outside that.

In most places a 5 year bachelors + masters is now expected for everyone science based. Just a 3 year programme isn't considered a complete education, so she'd be doing the same if she studied in any of the germanic countries. I think the Latin countries have a slightly different expectation, but they'll probably move over in the next decade or so.

I only read the AI summary of the visa rules, but it said 5 or 10 years to a C permit. I assume the difference is Cantonal, but don't quote me! It also said it needed language proficiency.

You need to put her in extra German class, probably starting now. If there's any chance she's staying as an adult, she needs to speak German, ideally both Swiss & High to integrate and to meet the requirements for a C permit. It's perfectly possible to live there as an adult without much German, but it severely limits job and social opportunities, confining you to the expat bubble. A child who grew up in Switzerland and doesn't speak German well is going to suffer discrimination and judgement, of which the Swiss are not short.

Getting French nationality for a spouse isn’t that easy. First off, they’ll need French to B2 level (I think). Plus the usual citizenship test. I know a few ladies living in France, married to Frenchmen, whose French still isn’t at suitable levels.

Also, proving French nationality isn’t straightforward. Another friends’s DH is French, French born, but with another EU nationality parent, and he lived overseas for many years. Each time he has to renew passport etc, he has to provide a stack of documentation proving where he went to school in France etc. They don’t make it easy, so I can totally see why the paperwork for OP to evidence her French citizenship will take a while.

Conversely, my DH is from another EU country where it’s very simple; if your parent/gp is that nationality, so are you. DS had nationality from birth, despite being born in UK. I went spousal route, so had to sit a 3 hour exam to B2 level, plus all the paperwork, which took a couple of years.

Have you considered living just over the border in France ? Then you could reach eg international schools in lake Geneva region and your DD would presumably then be in a position to get French nationality more easily if you have yourself and then able to do uni etc in Switzerland.

Would it be better to be near the border with France as that gives your DD more opportunities as an adult. So Basel instead of Zurich. Though depends on jobs of course.

France is particularly bureaucratic! It's made even harder because of the international nature of my family, which means I need to get paperwork from multiple different countries (4 including France) and get the documents which aren't in French translated... and all of the documents must have been issued within 3 months of the date I submit the application 😬

Which is why I haven't done it until now...

And then once they've got all the documents, it takes 12-18 months for them to process them, and ask me for any clarifications.

DH would indeed have to sit a language test and citizenship test to get French nationality, which would need some study. He's open to it, but I'm not sure there's a need unless we moved to France. We did consider moving to France - and visas would certainly be easier, since DD would get French nationality if she was living there. But Switzerland currently seems like a better fit for our family, so I want to see if we can make that work.

There is a specific permit G, for cross-border commuting, which would allow DH and I to work in Switzerland whilst living in France. I suppose we could live in France for a couple of years for DD to get her French nationality and then move to Switzerland after that. But it feels like a big ask on DD to have to move countries twice. I want to get properly integrated into the country, and that will be harder with that kind of cross-border situation.

It's true that if the language she focused on acquiring was French, it would be easier for her to spend some time in France a bit later, and get her French nationality later (although it may need to be before 18 for her French nationality by descent - I need to re-check that)

But these suggestions are great - thanks. I'll have another look at the job situation in French-speaking Switzerland.

Ah, that's really useful to know that 5 years university is expected - thanks!

Mu understanding is that it's 5 years residency to get the C permit for EU citizens, and 10 years for non-EU. Time spent before age 18 counts double. There are definitely quire different rules in different cantons though. I know that there are also high requirements for language proficiency and integration, which we'll make the effort for.

My impression was that the Swiss are a bit less judgemental of outsiders than some other countries though. Is that not the case?

They seem to have a strong expectation of incomers integrating and accepting Swiss values - but I thought the multiple languages and high immigration might give more tolerance of difference than say France.

Yes, this is the reason why I applied for my eu nationality as soon as I was able to because DH’s country is relatively easy at the moment but there are talks to make it harder in the future.

The French process seems 10 times harder and I feel for Op but I thought it best getting the ball rolling now in case the Swiss route doesn’t work out. Maximise one’s options.

Op we come from a fairly international family with lots of mixed marriages. They all live in various EU countries. France can be institutionally racist and discriminatory from what I have heard but it’s entirely dependant on how ‘ethnic’ you look. You are right family that do live and have worked in Switzerland have preferred it to France.

A child who grew up in Switzerland and doesn't speak German well is going to suffer discrimination and judgement, of which the Swiss are not short.

Agree with this. I work for a Swiss company and it has surprised (and disappointed) me just how judgemental the Swiss can be. Quite an eye-opener.

I’ve also worked in Hong Kong as the only westerner in a local Chinese team and that was far easier than working with the Swiss as a non-German speaker (I speak French but only very basic German) and trust me, my HK experience was far from easy! By contrast, working in Paris as the only non-French native in my dept was much much easier. I know Parisians don’t have the best reputation but in order of experienced difficulty I’d put the Swiss first, then Chinese, then French. Make of that what you will.