Swiss visas after child reaches 18

[ChristmasLightsAndSparkles]

I'm looking into the possibility of moving to Switzerland, and want to understand the situation for the whole family. In particular, we'd probably be looking to move in a couple of years, but I want to understand the consequences of timing for DD (currently 12) and her right to stay and work in Switzerland once she comes out of education.

Sorry, this will be quite technical, in terms of visa types and consequences!

• I'm a dual UK/EU citizen, but need to get the paperwork done to 'assert' my EU nationality, which will probably take about 18 months. I have family background there and Swiss extended family, but don't have Swiss nationality myself.
• DH is British but may be able to get Irish nationality by descent (great-grandparent).
• DD(12) is UK only - I don't think either of our EU descent rights extend as far as her.

I'm a native French speaker, but DH and DD don't speak French or German currently. But would obviously learn! DH and I both have in-demand work skills, so should be able to find jobs.

So:

• I should be able to get a B permit, and as an EU citizen could get a C permit 5 years later

• DH could either do the same if he gets Irish nationality, or come as my dependent (then move to C permit after either 5 or 10 years)
• But what about DD??

If we come when DD is 16.5 - which is a natural break point for her educationally, then she'll have 1.5 years before age 18 (which counts double - so 3 years) then probably 3 years at university.

So when she graduates and needs to look for a job, she'll have 6 years.

So my question is:
If I've got my C visa (should just get it by then!), would DD get a C visa at age 21 as my dependent? Or would she need 10 years residency, as she herself is a non-EU citizen? And would that last her for 5 years, until she had built up enough residency to get the C visa in her own right? I expect that getting a grad job on a B visa would be tricky!!

If she had to wait for the 10 years residency in her own right, then I wonder whether we need to move to Switzerland earlier, by the time she's 14.5. Otherwise she may end up having to move back to the UK. But that doesn't give us much time and isn't such a good change point for her.

Timing is tricky - I wish we'd come to this decision 5 years ago!

As I understand it, thé C permit isn’t automatically given anymore after 5 years. (We had ours way before all the changes). However, in terms of language development, I would definitely move your DD sooner rather than later. Would you immerse her totally in French? there are so many options for international/anglophone but it wouldn’t benefit her.

my advice to you would be to check that the double years still apply if the child is in private school rather than local. Also, consider village life. We are about to start the naturalization process and it’s overseen by the commune in our village rather than a central office in Lausanne or Geneva. Much more personal (we are integrated but my language isn’t what it could be).

The UK has an agreement with Switzerland so you can get a C Permit after 5 years. You do have to fulfil a number of requirements though, such as passing a language exam for the region you live in and being financially secure.

I think you need to carefully research the university situation.

The rules on home/international fees at UK universities are changing for UK nationals from 2028, so you would have to pay international fees if you move at 16 to Switzerland then wanted to study in the UK.

The language and academic requirements are really high for the Swiss universities and there is a lot of repeating years and a huge dropout rate.
My DD's studying at ETH in Zurich after moving here from the UK aged 6 and going to public schools. She has friends from the international schools. Some did A Levels and others the IB, but not one of them has gone to university in Switzerland. They are taking English speaking degrees in the UK/USA/Canada/elsewhere in the EU and having a lot more fun than she is! There are plenty of other routes to getting a good career and also a bachelors in Switzerland though, if you have the language skills.

being given the c permit is dependent upon quotas, isn’t it? I know some people who weren’t offered it automatically and stayed on B.
And from what I understand thé French speaking part is more relaxed than thé German speaking part…

I’d move now if you want to secure DD’s future in CH. You’ll be eligible for a C permit (with a language certificate) after 5 years and DC always get the better of the permits if their parents have different ones. I also think your DH can get one after 5 years, it’s not just EU countries, there are others such as the USA that are on the 5 year list. We moved pre Brexit so not 100% certain but it shows on our canton (BS) website as this.

A permit for your DH won’t be a problem as long as you have a job. You get a job offer and apply for your permit and he’ll get one as your spouse. It’ll likely have to be renewed yearly as non-EU and require some language skills for renewal but nothing too burdensome. If he has a permit then he’ll be much more attractive for employers. If you live in France then he will find it much harder to get a G permit, he won’t automatically get one as a spouse. We recruited someone in this situation recently and had to go through a lot of hoops to get him one, unless he has niche skills it could be tricky, a lot of employers aren’t will to go through the process.

I didn't live there very long, but my impression was tolerant of differences so long as you act Swiss. Tolerant is also different to welcoming. They don't mind foreigners or try to make your life difficult, but welcoming with open arms it isn't. That includes speaking the local language. They're not even tolerant of French/German in the wrong Canton, and Swiss German gets you much further than Hochdeutsch.

Is there a particular reason you chose CH? I'm in NL, which is fairly culturally similar but no mountains.

There are quotas now for the B Permit but not for C. It is not automatic to get C, it is up to you to apply for it. But if you meet the criteria you do get it. It could change though.

I'd discounted the accelerated 5 year route, but if it is fairly routinely given that would make things work much better! Thanks for that suggestion.

That's really interesting about Swiss universities being so hard to get into and make it through. Certainly ETH and EPFL seem to be top tier universities - and I'd expect them to be as hard to get into as the UK equivalents. Is it more than that? Are there mid-tier options - still recognised internationally - as well? DD is bright, but moving countries and languages is a pretty big challenge.

I think I need to do more research into universities. One thing that seems a strength in Swiss education is a practical focus - which I think would suit DD. She's science-focused, but also very hands-on and practical. I've ordered a book on Swiss education.

I realise that if DD goes back to the UK for University after a couple of years in Switzerland, we'll have to pay international fees, and she won't have access to loans. That wouldn't be great, but also wouldn't be a complete disaster. She isn't interested in medicine, at least! I'm hoping she would stay in Switzerland though.

I'm starting to wonder whether the French speaking part would be better for us! More relaxed bureaucracy definitely an advantage! DH and DD do speak some French, and we might find integration easier too.

It seems uncertain whether international school years would count double, and might be at the canton's discretion, based on how well you have integrated.

I'll start immersing DD more in French now - that's something I can and should do anyway. Another advantage to us moving to the French-speaking part would be that I could do the tutoring... although I'm not a great teacher, and my attempts to teach her can end up in conflict! But this does give an incentive.. The paperwork would be much easier in French than German too! It's just availability of jobs that seemed better in Zurich, but actually that's less tricky than language and integration.

Yes, that seems sensible. I'm not keen on moving to France and getting a G permit. We do want to integrate, so moving into Switzerland itself seems much better.

I'm actually OK with tolerance rather than warmly welcoming. I hope that would build up with some friends over time. We're fairly reserved ourselves.

Mountains are a big part of the appeal! We love the outdoors: walking, lake-swimming, skiing. I always feel happier in mountains. A few life things changed for us, and I started thinking about our life here in the UK and realised that this isn't how I want it to look.

I have a strong family connection to Switzerland, from the other side of my family. Several generations born and lived there in the past - just didn't naturalise, unfortunately for me! Some family still there - but not close enough for family reunification.

I do love the Netherlands though! We have been there on holiday several times, and it's somewhere I could imagine living... if only it had mountains!

Going to a Swiss university would entitle her to a six month post graduation job search visa and obviously be very helpful for the job search itself if she were to want to stay in Switzerland.

What makes you sure your daughter will want to live in Switzerland as an adult though?

If she only moves to Switzerland at 16.5 and then returns to the UK for university, you need to prepare yourself for her choosing to stay in the UK after graduating, regardless of where you live (and regardless of what her twelve year old self might think she'll want - puberty has barely started and of course she can't yet imagine choosing to make her life in a different country to her parents).

I really think your starting point is a job though. No job, no permit. The market is tough right now too. Work out what salary you need to live off whilst DH is looking for a job, don’t underestimate how expensive it is. But it’s a great move make, we’ve never regretted it and have no plans to return to the UK.

You're right of course, I don't know what she will choose.

But it feels like if we give it a go, then at least we'll live somewhere very beautiful as a family for a few years, and I do think she'll love the lifestyle too. We can always move back to the UK later.

Whereas if we don't go, then DD will almost certainly settle in the UK. I do think there's a window in her early adulthood where we could live in a different country, but I think it might just never be the right time and we'll miss our chance to try a different life.

That is true - without a job we can't move, and it's the part which is least within our control. There are a lot of moving parts to synchronise! Glad to hear that the move has worked well for you.

As your daughter is 12 I would move as soon as you can. I can see why you want to wait until 16, but I think it would be much harder then as friendship groups become more important and integrating can be difficult.

If this is something you want to do, go for it now. Otherwise the risk is that a few years time becomes the default and it never actually happens. The timing will never be perfect etc…

Just on unis - If you do the Swiss maturite - (pretty academic) you can go to any Swiss uni and start any course. It’s pass or fail and if you pass you can go anywhere. Which is I think why there’s a high drop out rate after first year. If you do the IB I think there are more entry requirements for Swiss universities but it’s feasible

The university system is just very different in Switzerland, partly because only about 20% of students get the matura that enables them to go to university. Around 30% more get a tertiary qualification after doing an apprenticeship and attending a vocational school of higher education. This a great option and is perhaps what you mean by the practical focus of Swiss education.

The matura is a very demanding 4 year programme, but some teens arrive not speaking German/French and manage to make it through. I know a few who arrived at 12-13 with no German, went to state school, studied at Zurich unis and have stayed in Zurich and are doing fantastically well in their 20's. I think it is easier in the French part of Switzerland to get into the gymnase than the gymnasiums in the German part.

I feel like my children have enjoyed a very privileged childhood here in Switzerland, that we wouldn't have been able to afford had we had stayed in England, in terms of education, elite level sport, travel, skiing, outdoor activities. However it sounds like money isn't an issue for you, so if your DD is happy and has lots of opportunity for travel in the holidays, then I would seriously consider if the disruption is worth it. Teenagers spend most of their free time studying/doing sport/hanging out with friends, rather than enjoying the lakes and mountains with their parents!

I have French relatives who were born abroad and have managed to give their also born abroad dc the nationality, without living there. It may be worth exploring.

If it requires residence in France, you could look at being just over the border near Geneva. Practically speaking, at least half of Geneva is actually in France, and it is realistic to live in France for residency purposes but in Switzerland for professional purposes. You could always move into Switzerland once your dd has her French passport.

An EU passport makes life much, much easier in CH, so if you can get it for your dd (and potentially your dh) it would be worth a bit of disruption.

Yes agree- the university system in Switzerland is so different to uk as fewer go to university? They opt for apprenticeships route. The maturite in French part is 3 yrs as opposed to 4 or 5. I don’t know if it’s easier but if you are academic, self motivated learner it helps! Some kids go elsewhere 13-16 and then do entrance exam for gymnase ( equivalent of 6th form).

The school and university system does seem completely different. I can see I need to do a lot more thinking about that - thanks so much @marshmallowfirepit and @ony123 for pointing me in the direction of the matura. Interesting that it's shorter in the French part than the German one. And that it can be done bilinguallly English /French, with exams in English it seems - but still requires really strong German and French! It sounds really hard, especially for a non-native speaker. But also an excellent education! It's pretty incredible @ony123 that you know some kids who came in at 12-13 without French or German and made it through! DD is quite academic and self-motivated, but I'd be pretty nervous at throwing her into that, especially with a straight pass/fail at the end!

I am definitely thinking that the French part would work better for us, and potentially going into a local school rather than international. Nut I'm not clear yet into what path. But local school in another language is a tougher ask than international school, and I take the point that we should think really carefully about whether it's worth it, and do it as soon as possible if so.

I really appreciate all the pointers from everyone - this has given me so much information and food for thought! Thank you all.