Considering moving to France/Geneva for DH's job

[CatmumTTC]

So DH has finally got a job offer for his dream job in Geneva. I've always said if he ever gets it we'll move because it is an adventure etc. but it was always a slim possibility.

Trouble is we are pretty settled in the UK and have been TTC for a while and about to start fertility treatment (which is what I usually use Mumsnet for, hence the username!). We also have a few other things that have tied us down, house and pets, good friends. My job in the UK is pretty good but couldn't do it there, and would not be entitled to a work visa unless I could find a job there that would sponsor me, which is unlikely. I could live there with DH on his visa but not work. We are both UK citizens.

Contract is only for two years and then we'd need to make a decision about moving back to the UK or not, depending on what other job options open up.

I'm considering keeping my job and UK tax residency and visiting DH for part of the year. My job is remote and I could move to my parents which is closer to an airport in the UK that does cheap flights to Geneva whilst making sure I spend at least 183 days out of the year in the UK. Then we could go between these locations and still keep our cat (who is elderly so moving her would be pretty hard). That way we can still continue fertility treatment in the UK. However might get harder to travel if I actually do get pregnant so I'd probably need to make the move eventually.

Alternatively, we both move straight away and I become a lady of leisure in a foreign city whilst TTC, and possibly have a baby over there. But taking a pretty big career break that could limit my options for the future. And we'd be living on one salary (a pretty good salary mind). Geneva is lovely, and close to my outdoorsy hobbies so wouldn't be too much of a hardship! But I know being a new mum can be lonely and my french is pretty poor so that's a concern.

Guess I'm just looking for some thoughts on these ideas. Things I might need to consider. Like paying taxes etc. Anyone moved to the French suburbs just outside Geneva and got any advice? Are we crazy to do this at this stage in our lives?

*unusual

Having grown up in the region I would go like a shot. The frontalier towns are full of international community people and what are charmingly called 'trailing spouses'. Obviously my perspective is not based on living there as an adult, but I still have lots of links with adults who do live there, who love it. A friend also moved out there for her H's job 4 years ago and they were devastated when they had to move back to the UK post-contract.

It's a wonderful place to bring up a family, less adultification, better health care etc, hoping your ttc comes off (good luck). Plus, in many ways its ideally timed, a 2 year career break while having babies is barely a blip over the course of a lifetime's work and much easier to come back from these days.

Re the lady of leisure, if its not your bag, while ttc you can learn French - most of the international institutions offer courses and support for employees and families, which is an additional skill which might stand you in good stead in the future. In your shoes I'd be signing up for a remote learning Masters or similar so that you come out with something.

The salary is over the average for the region, but PP are right about the cost of living. I would double check all the benefits - health, relocation etc.

But it's a fantastic opportunity. Good luck!

I work at the UN so I fully understand how the packages work

@LapinR0se I corrected it to "unusual". We also were expats in CH.

@CatmumTTC i was talking about appartements in Geneva. Indeed, I have lived in CH for almost 20 yrs but I don’t have that much knowledge on the French side regarding prices but I believe it’ll be easier to find cheaper accommodation there than in Geneva itself.
It sounds like you’re feeling positive so good luck with it all!

Geneva is full of expats, most people speak English. The frontalier towns largely cater to commuters, so have a large number of expats too, but many people do all their social stuff in Geneva even if they live over the border.

Getting Swiss health insurance is cheap if you are married to a frontalier - we pay under 500 a month for four of us. I believe all Swiss health insurance covers maternity.

It may not be that difficult to get a job that will sponsor you if you have valuable skills and are already living there, Geneva companies are very used to doing this. Living in France won't make a difference to your tax treatment if you are working in Geneva, under the frontalier regime you will be taxed as resident in Geneva.

This is so common. I worked out of sites in Geneva AND Basel, and a lot of staff lived in France just across the border. Even those that lived in the cities in Switzerland did food shopping in france, got trades form francecetc.

we had the reverse in our French sites just across the borders- a brain drain of the French living in France but wanting transfers to the Switzerland site. A slightly longer commute but massive salary

having said that, my experience of switz professionals and graduates, is that they outstrip all other European grads at a young age. So much more ownership and knuckling down to go above and beyond their job description- they earn way more but work better in fairness.

As for learning the language, you can do this by osmosis and necessity whilst living there. I went to weekly adult evening classes and was amazed how good I was after three terms. Living there and with time on your hands, you will learn the language and as others have commented you could even plan to study it, to get better faster.

It's a good time to take this opportunity. Once you ah e children they will soon be at school and have friends and you are far less likely to want to uproot them - especially for a 2 year contract.

The issue is your career and it appears there's not much you can do about that if you want to be together which makes sense with TTC and the lifestyle there.

It's been framed here as him giving up on his dreams so you can have yours, or vice versa. But that's not the equation at all.

It's this: you give up on your career dreams, together with potentially having a spanner in the works for IVF, so he can have his career dreams, or you both carry on as you are.

The actual equivalent wouldn't be that he stays put in his job though, it's that he quits his job, forfeiting career growth, pension income and earnings potential, to move abroad somewhere he doesn't really speak the language, stay at home (taking on all/nearly all the housework), do some extra hobbies and then be a full-time SAHD looking after your joint child(ren). And that's all while you grow your career, income and pension and against the backdrop of you previously saying you'd jointly keep working, but sacrifice some years of career growth to look after your child(ren).

Unless he's open to doing that, do not leave your job.

People move abroad and become trailing spouses and love it, others hate it. Some love staying at home and working, some hate their job and want to quit and be a SAHM in the U.K., some don't. Just because some people love "trailing" after their husband's job, doesn't mean everybody does. There's often quite a lot of drinking amongst expat wives for a reason too...

Having just gone through an international divorce, I'll add this: when you're living in a country for 6+ months, your marriage becomes under that country's jurisdiction, because that's where you're normally resident. Once you have a child, you won't be moving back and forth for the 183 days. You can still get divorced in England, were that to happen (hopefully not), but you'd have to move back to make it less of a nightmare. And you cannot take the chil(ren) and just move back to England without him agreeing, because of a Hague convention that France is a signatory of. It would be kidnapping! Go and check it out. You could file in France too (where the child(ren) is ordinarily resident). but then French family law isn't the same as English either - pensions are not considered an asset, so don't get divided in divorce, as an example. That means that for any time you're not working you're literally not getting anything for your retirement, unless from the €8.000 you continue paying pension contributions in the UK.

There's a lot more here to think about than a bit of skiing - which isn't exactly year round anyway.

My advice isn't to not do it. It's to think very carefully about whether, for you, what you'd be giving up is really worth it and whether your DH would be willing to sacrifice the same for your career.

*resident for 6+ months in a EU country (or at least a good number of them)

Brilliant post.

Also keep in mind that a great deal of UN two year contracts are renewed as standard so if he likes the job, it is very possible he will be looking to stay longer.

8k will be tight for two people in Geneva itself (4k chf is minimum wage IIRC) and as others have said, you need to check if the UN carte de legitimation will allow you to live in France with a UK passport. If you do, you shouldn’t have to pay tax or social charges on the salary. You are not strictly speaking a frontalier and the rules are very different for people on private sector expat contracts and UN contracts.
I moved over on a short term contract pre kids and never left. It’s an amazing region with lots of opportunities but do think about the opportunities for you and look carefully at what legally you are allowed do.

I did something similar and wouldn’t recommend it.

If you took the money out of the equation (trust, it won’t go as far as you think), would you still do it? Taking into account flights back and forth, moving expenses, buying new bits on both ends, and you won’t end up with much change from 8k/month. You might struggle to find a flat in Geneva for 2.5k - even a cheap and cheerful one.

Without kids I absolutely would not recommend living over the border - it can be very isolating, you would absolutely need a car, which you can skip in Geneve central.

What happened to us was my husbands job got extended, extended and made permanent. It was meant to be two years, it’s been almost ten. We’re from a non-eu country, and we can never get citizenship (he looked into it - I burst into tears at the very thought). Nor can our children, which is a special way to fuck then up (look up « third culture kids » if you’re not familiar with the concept).

Your situation is quite different as the uk is much closer than our home, but you’ll still miss things. Not heaps of things over just two years, but if you stayed longer… how much money would be worth missing your besties wedding? Not seeing your nieces grow up? If your mum got sick? For me, the Swiss-money isn’t worth those things. For my husband it is, and now I’m quite, quite stuck.

My friend did this and had her kids there (CH) and got citizenship eventually (the paperwork is epic).

The difference was that it made sense for both of them career-wise.

Her DH managed to become fluent in German but it was hard work for him. His company paid for lessons.

It is extremely expensive there but the quality of life and infrastructure is much better. But you get what you pay for!

To add, if you can live in France and want to give it a go for two years, you could look at Annemasse, which is an urban areas that is basically greater Geneva. It is a lot cheaper than Pays de Gex/Ferney where the expats tend to go, lots of appartments being built and a new tramline and cyclepaths means getting to the UN sector is a lot easier. It is very much a French town, areas of deprivation definitely but there's a lot of work and money being pumped into it. Very easy to live your social and work life in Geneva from there without a car, which as MrsClaus said, it really a must in rural parts. And much cheaper than Geneva.

Expats and people in Geneva tend to recoil in horror at the thought of Annemasse but I have a lot of French friends living there who are very happy. It's not an expat experience, I think you would need to make an effort with French, but that could be a great plus from the experience - so many people working in Geneva really stuggle to even order a sandwich in French.

Thanks all for the replies. Lots to think about.

@gestroopd sounds like you've gone through a very difficult time of it. Sorry to hear that. Divorce is not on our radar, we're extremely close and I'm comfortable that we are both very committed to making this work. I know he would move back with me if I wasn't happy after trying this out. He's a very sensible and easy going person, whom I love very much.

I've just had more information about the visa and looks like I can apply for a special spouse work permit that would cover me for his contract. Looks like there are other benefits too like an on-site crèche.

Also looked into fertility costs and they seem comparable with the UK so feeling a bit more comfortable about that too.

@MrsClausMaybe judging by the way you said "heaps" I'm guessing Aus/NZ? I lived there for several years. Geneva is much closer to our family in the UK than that was so I'm not too worried about distance. Flight back are pretty cheap. And, like Australia, the quality of life is much better than the UK.

Now I just have to work out what to do with our beloved elderly cat. To rehome or put her through the journey. Does anyone know how accommodating the rental market in Geneva is to applicants with pets?

Ahaha busted - yes one of those countries. Next time we go home en famille it will cost 8k just for flights. My work don’t give much leave so we can only go back every other year - otherwise we can never go to Europe - and then what’s the point of living in Europe?

Flights are definitely easier/cheaper to the UK, but do look at connections and overall travel time. My mate is from somewhere in the UK but outside of a main centre and it takes her two flights and 6 or 7 hours to get home, which makes popping back for a weekend much less feasible.

Most rentals are controlled by agencies, not private landlords and they are quite relaxed about pets, which is great. You will need to declare kitty when making an application but (in theory) this should not be taken into account or held against you. (Who really knows - but we have a cat and it hasn’t been a problem when looking for flats.)

I have a friend who had IVF while working as an expat in Geneva. I don't think it was much more expensive than here? They also took their cat and that worked out fine too. I think the company helped them find a flat.

don't know the visa ins and outs but DH's best friend lives in Geneva (works for UN)- they lived in Switz for a while but have now settled in the suburbs on the French side, had kids ,now at French schools, she learnt French and everything is pretty lovely. Wife works there now but continued to work in the UK flying over at weekends etc for quite some time. And they eventually moved the cats too!

For two years, continuing to base yourself in the UK may be the best thing IF your career is important to you. But you'll have plenty of time to make expat friends etc if you just go to be a lady of leisure - in Geneva there are a lot of trailing spouses. If you get pregnant though, you obviously won't get any maternity benefits if you're not working, so something to consider.

Annemasse is not very attractive and on the wrong side of Geneva for the UN and agencies, and the traffic in and out of Annemasse at rush hour is unspeakable - it can take a very long time to do that commute, if you were willing to commute for that long you could be a fair bit further out where it's even cheaper and lovely and rural.

In France, landlords are not allowed to stop you from having pets. Not sure about in Geneva.

Annemasse is a very bad idea for the UN.

ideally you would find something nice in Grand Sacconex

With the new rail links, it takes 35 minutes to get from Annemasse station to Secheron so totally commutable by public service, and no need for a car. You could also bike for about the same time. The CEVA and the direct trams from Annemasse means getting to the UN side is a lot easier and quicker so it is very much an option, especially if you are on a budget (and after all only one person has to get to the UN.)

It's definitely a lot grittier than Geneva, but you will get a lot more for your money.