Am I mad to move to France while pregnant?

[Anonymous111]

Hi everyone

Would so appreciate anyone’s advice.

We are in a unique situation where we could potentially move to France for between 12 and 15 months. My husband would keep working for his London-based company, and I would be on maternity leave from my London-based company. We have a daughter who would be 2 1/2 years old, and we would aim to move when I’m six months pregnant. Unfortunately it would not be possible to move any earlier due to work.

The idea that we’ve come up with is to live somewhere like Bordeaux or Lyon, set up my husband can commute back to London maybe once a month for meetings, and we would really enjoy the French lifestyle and finally finally learn proper French.

I’m very much aware that the admin is going to be a nightmare. My Hope is that one of our HR teams will help us with some of the paperwork at least.

My question is, to what extent am I absolutely bonkers to try and do it while I’m six months pregnant? I’m mostly concerned about getting into the French system to deliver the baby. I have an EU passport but no french paperwork . Online forums that I’ve researched say things like most French women register with a gynaecologist in a hospital within days of finding out they are pregnant, and because of the way the system works I would not be able to do this until I am six months pregnant.

Does anybody have any experience of moving to France while pregnant without all the paperwork established.

Does anybody know of any ways to streamline the admin process before you move? As I said we might be able to get our HR teams to help us

We very much feel like this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity because of various factors including our children being young, my husband being able to work from home as a hangover from Covid for a period of time, and my being on second maternity leave. We feel like if we don’t do it now, we won’t be able to do it.

Thank you so very much for anyone’s suggestions

Ps neither of us have spoken to our works yet about this so we can’t ask the HR teams, we don’t want to ask until we are dead certain that we can make it work. And this is the last hurdle

I did this whilst 5 months pregnant, but it was 18 years ago so things might have changed. The administrative side was a nightmare - I managed to get registered for the nearest hospital for the birth, but until we managed to get registered with the health system we had to pay up front for everything and claim it back. Things were tight for money for us at the time so this might not be a problem for you but it was incredibly stressful. My French was OKish, my husband was pretty fluent but there were so many things we just didn't understand about the French health system and how it works.

The other big issue I had was that I assumed that there would be loads of mother and baby group, toddler classes etc so I would build my social life from those and there was absolutely nothing! No baby massage, no singing groups, no coffee mornings - absolutely zilch!! This was in a town just outside Paris. So my French didn't really improve until my other children went to school and even that took about 2 years. I joined some English language mother/baby groups as otherwise I would have been incredibly lonely during this time and these kind of things will very much depend where you live - I had to drive 40km to go to a baby singing group. Things may have changed now, but French women tend to go back to work pretty quickly after giving birth so there didn't seem to be the same demand for this as there had been in the UK.

I wouldn't say don't do it, but just beware that France is very different from the UK, so embracing the French way of life with 2 small children could be lonely for you. Your eldest could be eligible for school tho' as they start the year they are 3, but I'm not sure how this would work in terms of your residency.

@graywall thank you so much

I’m worried about being lonely too - thank you for raising this.

Gah in my head it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to finally learn french and enjoy the beautiful environment but the reality may be quite a bit harder 😢

It does sound like the actual birth side was okay ( despite the money issue!)

Do both you and your husband have passports that allow you to do this? This would have been much more straightforward pre brexit. If you are living in France the french will rightly expect you to pay tax there. I wouldn't have thought the UK government would pay SMP to a non resident. Its a nice idea but I can't see how it could work.

My first reaction is that it sounds like a lot of trouble, bureaucracy etc for people who appear not to speak good French and who will presumably need to continue to pay tax in the UK (and who may face double-tax demands from France), for a comparatively short period living in France -- and that you're unlikely to receive much help from either of your London-based company's HR if there's no work-related reason for you to relocate.

And that's not even factoring in giving birth etc in France (which to me is a red herring, because there are so many bigger potential issues).

Some of this may be relevant to you:

www.litrg.org.uk/tax-guides/employment/working-remotely-your-uk-employer-while-overseas

What impact has Brexit had on these kinds of plans?

finally finally learn proper French you wont. I'm sorry but you just won't in that time. Unless you actually work somewhere and speak French all day long. Random bakery and coffee shop encounters wont go far. Making friends will be extremely difficult too.

PP is right that getting to know the rules and laws and ways of doing things in a legal way in a new country is so difficult without insider knowledge. The paperwork is going to be an absolute nightmare you won't get onto healthcare quickly and won't be able to easily set up all your pre-natal appts. It's a lovely idea but in practice, a complete nightmare, particularly as you will also need a translator/consultant to do it all.

Do your businesses also operate out of France and could you be transferred to the French business? If not, it just doesn't work to live somewhere and pay tax to another country or even try and pay tax twice. It's simply not allowed. I tried!

Not sure if it will help, but there is a small You Tube channel
'Living in the Loire' where they have moved to France, with a young family and have had a baby in the French system.

They talk positively about the French system & about how to negotiate some of the bureaucracy they have encountered.

As others have said is this a work based move?
My DH shifted offices in Jan to Paris though he still does work in the UK. He has dual nationality his second nationality has better travel requirements with the UK than France so that side is easier.
His office is dealing with lots of the logistics, but even renting an apartment comes with lots of difficulties as he is not French and does not have a French bank account.
It's definitely not for the faint heart even without needing health care - he comes home every week so can access healthcare in the Uk.

When you say “my dh would continue to work for his London-based company”, what do you mean? Does he have an EU passport? Does his company have an office in France? I work for a multinational company, and no one is allowed to work abroad while their official office is based in the U.K. unless you mean short-term projects etc. The tax complications are immense.

Are you sure that your HR departments will be keen to help or even to allow this? Our company has been very reluctant to allow anyone to work from home outside of the UK as there are tax complications.

I hope you do get to go though, sounds like a lovely opportunity.

Hi all

Thanks so much for your thoughts and advice @helpfulperson @Lonecatwithkitten@Erinyes@Thearex@thisplaceisweird@Woollystockings!!

Firstly please be rest assured that we have researched the tax situation in a lot of detail - it was actually the first thing I checked as I thought this could be a deal breaker and not to bother considering moving if we couldn’t make it work. Both of us work for large international companies with offices in both U.K. and France and although yes after a time we would need to pay tax in France our HR functions would sort this out for us. We both work in finance so believe me it was honestly the first thing I looked at 😂

I have an EU passport and so husband would be allowed to come as my husband ( he doesn’t have an EU passport).

For healthcare again I gave this a lot of thought @Lonecatwithkitten - husband will do what yours does and stay in the U.K. system as he has health problems but only sees his consultant every 3 month or so and often it’s via phone now. We would also register there and our private health care in U.K. would be transferred to France again via our works.

The bit that continues to worry me is: we all agree this is a huge undertaking and a lot of work, which will of course all fall to me 😂 I’m up for it but only if it is “worth it” and you are all basically saying no, it’s not worth it.

So in the U.K. when I’ve been on maternity leave my days are like this ( impacted by covid as I had my baby right in the middle of lockdowns): do nearly 100% of everything for baby, go for walks alone - usually along busy main roads and breathe in lovely london fumes, pop to supermarket, get a treat snack, text friends, read books ( my hobby and something I do basically every night). Husband works 8am -10pm from home. On weekends he is knackered but would do a walk with baby and have naps as he is tired. My close friends are all spread across london and are either crazy busy at work and have 0 time for catch ups, and the ones who have kids have similar lives to mine and although live in london we hardly see each other as London so big and we don’t live near to each other. I go to baby playgroups 2 x a week and smile at every woman who glances at me and will basically organise a coffee date with a wall if I could. Both our families live in Australia so no family about.

So to my husband and I: having a second baby in France would basically be the same experience for me as my previous mat leave but learning at least some french - my idea was I would go to french classes 1-2 a week and meet other people in the evening, eat better quality croissants than I currently do, and take walks in nicer greener areas. I would put my 2 year old in crèche so another opportunity to meet mums but also she would get exposure to french.

I am disheartened now listening to all your advice - which I asked for and so appreciate! - I would rather have my thinking challenged now before I do anything than sign ourselves up for a nightmare

X

I'm with many others. Moved to France for a multi-year spell pre- Brexit and even with company help there were many hurdles. This was Paris. Very difficult to open a bank account without an address and impossible to sign a lease without a bank account . Ditto getting a carte vitale to access the French healthcare system (although no shortage of excellent doctors who would sign you up as a patient as long as you could pay as you go). Tried to get the equivalent of child benefit for which we were eligible and the local office simply refused to process the correctly filled out paperwork.

Some excellent nurseries but massively over subscribed (at least in our area) as we found the culture there is for French women to go back to work when their babies are very young. They have an halte-garderie system too where your baby/toddler can go for a few hours a week. These are fantastic but again places are like unicorn shit.

Parisians are notoriously scornful of even other French people's attempts to speak French, let alone foreigners', which is quite dispiriting. They are far friendlier around Bordeaux, which I know well, but the downside is that there will be fewer expats generally to tap into to make friends with (apart from Chinese owners who have bought many vineyards and now staff all the tours).

As long as you went with your eyes open it would still be an adventure. But don't under estimate the slog of the bureaucracy and potential pitfalls... SW France in winter is thinly populated and cold.

@Erinyes @Thearex @thisplaceisweird @Woollystockings sorry didn’t link you properly!

@friskybivalves

You made me snort my tea at your unicorn shit comment thank you!

You think as long as you go into this expecting the admin to be a nightmare it is still worth it? I guess I just feel like we both have very demanding jobs and never would we be able to do this again if we don’t do it now 😭 why do the french make it so hard?!

I would second PP who said making friends will be very hard - baby groups are not a thing outside of the english-speaking community, and most French women return to work when their babies are 3 months old. The firends I made living in France were through work mostly, and other english-speaking ex-pats.

And speaking of ex-pats, you will find a reluctance to "invest" time in friends that are only passing through for a year or 2. When you've been there a while, it gets upsetting having good friends leave regularly, so lang-haulers stop putting in the time with people who aren't in it for the long haul

I live in Paris and have had 2 babies here.

I didn't find any French speaking baby groups (I'm fluent), only English speaking ones.

Mums go back to work by 5 months generally and babies are either in creches or with nannies. There are lots of nannies in the parks! But they tend to hang together , often by nationalities.

I only started to make friends with French people through my DC when they started school. And even then it's very different cos its often dads who drop off in the morning and nannies who pick up in the afternoon.

Ive made a lot more friends through work.

Also, bear in mind many medical staff tend not to speak English in a professional setting. Having a baby in a different country is challenging enough (there are a lot of differences in approach) without struggling to understand what is being said. There are a lot of appointments to navigate and the system and tests are not the same as in the UK.

Public hospitals will have to accept you afaiu so you will receive care but there will be very limited choice. I was followed by my GP and then the midwives in the hospital with a gynecologist appointed by the hospital. I had excellent care but it was a very different experience to what my friends in the UK had.

On the tax, it is not the tax that is a problem it is the social charges. Is your husband's employer really willing to pay the extra social charges? We're talking in the order of 15% extra gross salary. When we moved, my husband's company set up a legal office in France but refused to pay the extra social charges so they paid him gross and he paid employer and employee charges. It was a lot of money.

Thing is, French don't 'make it hard'. It's not hard for them. They have bank accounts, friends, family members, support systems. But it makes me laugh when brits are accused of being unfriendly to incomers and yet in our libraries there are leaflets in umpteen languages etc etc. Try moving to France and finding any help at all!

Agree with the expat/friends network point, too. If people think you're only there for 12mknths, say, they will - out of an instinct for self preservation - not invest too much in you. Its not worth it. You're a declining asset, to put it brutally. They will just have made a nice new friend and then, pouf, you'll be off with your gorgeous new baby and they will still be in SW France, even lonelier than ever, to run their gite business that's made little money since 2020 thanks to covid.

If you had a job to go to every day, your French would improve leaps and bounds. I worked for an international aid charity and pretended I was pretty fluent when I'd only done a GCSE yonks ago. OMG I was winging it like crazy at the start but got so brilliant at saying things like 'We need 10,000 rehydration kits within a fortnight or believe me your life won't be worth living' just by copying colleagues. You won't get that by standing in the queue for croissants.

Have a good look at areas. Property websites for a start are fairly hopeless in France. And landlords aren't hugely keen on renting to foreigners. See if you can find a UK or French landlord with an air bnb who would do a long rental in exchange for a decent knockdown rate. Try maybe Bordeaux which is beautiful and cosmopolitan, perhaps Aix, Lyon (if you like skiing). Montpellier is stunning. Toulouse not a bad shout and vg flights as airbus is there. (but not much else although close to coast) Avoid Paris which is vile and everyone else in France also hates parisians.

Perhaps go for a three month adventure first with the option to extend and see how you get on? But choose somewhere with cheap flights back to UK...

why do the french make it so hard?!

Definitely not the French. I moved to a different European country even before Brexit and it was a NIGHTMARE.

Hello again op - huge apologies as I hadn't seen your post about having an EU Passport etc before my last post.

OK so if you have an EU Passport that makes life a little easier. I do agree with a PP about the lack of English speakers in the healthcare system. This is absolutely not a criticism. Why the hell should they speak English? No reason at all. Our nearest doctor was actually a Spanish speaker which was an added complication. I had a baby in Italy and one in France and midwives and doctors and radiographers etc in both countries had very little English. My pregnancies and births were uneventful but had they been complicated I can imagine it would have been stressful.

Is there a world in which you had the delivery in UK and made for France immediately afterwards and enjoyed a heavenly year out after that in eg aix or bordeaux? Reading books and sipping Rose? They have decent mature student populations for example. It would seem to make more sense to me. I moved with tiny babies and they are way more portable than people think.

To be fair I think the op was joking about the French making it hard. She's bewailing it might not be as perfect as she has developed it in her head. Which is very human! Lol.

The UK has beautiful countryside, croissants, pains au chocolat and French bread. You could just move to the Lake District and experience all that. I get, though, that people don't speak French here but in my experience, on the whole adults' language skills only improve significantly when they are immersed and have to talk to survive. Even if you attend language classes, a couple of hours a week are not going to extend your knowledge sufficiently if you're not being forced to use it in your day to day life. You'll tend to just end up using transactional phrases and language. And when it comes to giving birth you will realise that, although you may have learned set phrases and terminology, being able to convey less concrete ideas is much more challenging and nuances will pass you by. Where will you meet all these French people that you'll be eating with in the evening? Is your French sufficient that they'll want to have lots of meet ups? Do you not think when you've got a newborn, you'll be desperate to chat with people and not want all the concentration it will take to juggle speaking in French whist tending to the baby. And so you'll find yourself drifting towards conversing with Brits for ease and comfort?

There is often a lack of appreciation for what a person's home country can offer. Familiarity breeding contempt as it were. It seems like you have an idealised picture of what your life in France will be like. You have sorted out the financial side with your head but you're letting your heart and hormones make decisions about your home life.

Having said all that, I don't blame you for wanting to move there. I had a fabulous time in France. And it's always hard to look back and wonder if you missed an opportunity.

I would check the healthcare very carefully. Does your private healthcare cover maternity fully? Will it be possible to transfer to France and are you sure your dh will be able to remain registered and using GP in UK if not resident in UK? Also, will he be able to access all/any medication he needs in France (sometimes different in different countries). Also, will you have support around you? If dh is working long hours and flying back to UK quite often it could be quite lonely with a young child and a baby. I wouldn't rule it out, but I would be very careful to check details. Also, thinking about it, how will timings work out for older child and primary school applications etc?

I dunno about the pregnancy bit but French friends that I have in Paris are exactly as described above. Back to work quickly, everything is on schedule - creche, nanny etc. You will only be hanging out with other ex pats really. French people are pretty independent and not that into making friends - their lives are very organised. Childcare is creche or nanny. I imagine you will be in a sea of red tape, have baby, struggle with language and end up speaking english in a group of other english speakers.
Could you go for longer ? Then it might make sense if you are in the school system etc. It will not be easy to make friends though.

I have an EU passport and so husband would be allowed to come as my husband ( he doesn’t have an EU passport).

My DH has an EU passport and I don't. That doesn't give me any rights to stay in France at all. Are you sure about that?