DS wants to work in Germany or Austria

[Tulipomania]

He's just graduated with an excellent degree & wants to improve his German skills, doing a casual job for a few months before he starts on the career ladder.

It seems to be all but impossible post-Brexit, you can't get a work permit without a job offer, and vice versa.

Anyone got any useful advice to offer?

Obviously, your undergraduate or graduate degree needs to be at an EU university. You can then spend up to a year at a different EU university under Erasmus.

But to get a student visa, don't you generally need to prove you have X amount of money in your bank account for the length of your stay? I imagine it varies by country and I haven't looked into it a lot, but I was under that impression. Which is doable if you're only going to study for 3 months after working and saving for a bit, but not something most students could afford for a 3 or 4 year degree.

@Tulipomania

Embracelife that is what we have suggested, but he is very fixed in bis views that he wants to get his German fluent first.

Bromeliad he was born in 1999, we have looked into it and he cannot get citizenship. DH, who was born & lived in UK his whole life, is in the process of getting his German passport but that won't affect DS's status.

Perhaps he's underestimating his current ability, but the best way to get fluent would be to get a job in Germany! What's he to lose by applying?

And how likely is a UK student to be undertaking an undergraduate course at an EU university?

Shall we take a look at tuition fees for third country nationals at a university in the Netherlands? Dutch/EU/EEA students, 700 - 2,100 euros per academic year versus non EU/EEA students 6,000 - 15,000 euros per year for a Bachelor's degree, 8,000 - 20,000 euros per year for a Master's degree

Also, no loans or grants for living costs from Student Finance.

They could hope for a bursary or scholarship. If any are available for the university they want to study at, for the subject they want to study and for those in their personal circumstances. And if the course is taught in English or they have the required level of language skills (usually B2/C1 levels of the CEFR).

Yes, I think it's more achievable to study at a UK university and do a non-Erasmus year abroad. I actually did this before Brexit was a thing, and it wasn't that expensive. My home university reimbursed me for one semester's tuition fees, and I got half a year's tuition fees charged (to Student Finance) for my other semester. The main thing I missed out on were the Erasmus bursaries, which would have been nice...

Of course I'm not saying that that makes up for losing Erasmus.

My DC is considering taking a degree in Germany. Their school doesn't teach German, but DC has done some language exchanges to Germany (from zero German knowledge) and has had some online teaching, and on top of that would spend some time in Germany prior to taking a German language exam to entitle her to take a degree. German universities cost the same for international students as for EU students. And come with the benefit of Erasmus, which is important to my DC. Some courses (though not many) are taught in English, avoiding the language issue.
Brexit is crap - but why assume that all options are closed to our DCs when that isn't actually the case? Of course, things may change in the future.

If you are a British Citizen living in the EU27 then a great place to ask a question is in the private Facebook group
After Brexit Brits Living in the EU27
There are over 4,300 Brits with experience that might help.

@Nothapppy

My DC is considering taking a degree in Germany. Their school doesn't teach German, but DC has done some language exchanges to Germany (from zero German knowledge) and has had some online teaching, and on top of that would spend some time in Germany prior to taking a German language exam to entitle her to take a degree. German universities cost the same for international students as for EU students. And come with the benefit of Erasmus, which is important to my DC. Some courses (though not many) are taught in English, avoiding the language issue. Brexit is crap - but why assume that all options are closed to our DCs when that isn't actually the case? Of course, things may change in the future.

I agree Brexit is crap, and losing Erasmus is bad, but I don't think that doing a semester or year abroad isn't an option for students in the UK anymore. As I said, I did a year abroad myself and was not entitled to Erasmus.

It's great if you and your family can afford the visas, private language tuition and living costs without the help of Student Finance, but for most people I'm going to assume the Turing scheme or whatever other exchanges universities have now are still a lot less expensive than all of that. Basically I'm just saying that doing a degree in the EU probably isn't a viable option for people unless they either have (a) an EU passport or (b) quite a bit of money.

@Nothapppy

My DC is considering taking a degree in Germany. Their school doesn't teach German, but DC has done some language exchanges to Germany (from zero German knowledge) and has had some online teaching, and on top of that would spend some time in Germany prior to taking a German language exam to entitle her to take a degree. German universities cost the same for international students as for EU students. And come with the benefit of Erasmus, which is important to my DC. Some courses (though not many) are taught in English, avoiding the language issue. Brexit is crap - but why assume that all options are closed to our DCs when that isn't actually the case? Of course, things may change in the future.

Are you and your DC UK citizens and do you live in the UK?

If so, she will only be able to spend 90 days in 180 in Germany without a visa. This is enough to do a 12 week language course if you can afford the fees and living costs, or as PPs have noted, Workaway is a possibility.

As to taking a degree in Germany, your DC will need a student visa. To obtain one she will need to prove she has access to around €8,700 per year for living costs.

Then there's the tuition fees. At public universities, the fees are indeed currently the same for non-EU students - apart from in Baden-Wuerttemburg where tuition fees of €3,000 per year have been introduced for non-EU students.

Also, there's around 110 euros per month for the statutory public health insurance and then travel costs to and from Germany.

So there are options to study an entire degree in, say, Germany, but they are expensive. A bursary or scholarship would help, but I don't see many of those available at bachelor's degree level.

To be honest I think doing a full undergraduate degree in the EU wasn't possible for most people before Brexit anyway. Most students depend on SFE to pay the tuition fees and some maintenance loans at least, and living abroad you're not eligible. And part-time jobs would only be realistic for students with good language skills already.

@Wbeezer

I know, i feel the same, DS2 fancied doing a Masters in a European uni that is known for his subject, it would have been much cheaper as well as an interesting experience, now it's unaffordable. DS1 will probably miss out on some sporting ops too as visa's make it more complicated for tournament organisers.

DS2 got in just in time to study engineering in Finland. Not only is it £0 fees but his rent is lower than he was paying on a smaller flat in a Midlands city. And his course is in English.

Yes, there are costs involved, but if you study in Germany you don't end up with a massive debt.

Not trying to argue or anything, but most people would have to get into massive debt to prove they had 861€ per month of their degree in their bank account before they'd even started. At least UK student loans are like a tax and not paid up front.

Why can’t he just apply for a graduate role in Germany with a multinational? Both Adidas and Amazon will pay for talented grads to learn German provided they apply for the right schemes.

@Nothapppy

Yes, there are costs involved, but if you study in Germany you don't end up with a massive debt.

You have to find the money from somewhere, so at the very least 8,700 euros per year - though cost of living websites give the average in Germany as 10,200 euros per year.

So the total would likely be £26,000 at least for the three years of a bachelor's degree.

If you're lucky, this can be paid from savings or inheritance.

If you have to borrow the money, it would have to be a commercial loan, and every penny of the loan plus interest would have to be repaid, whatever your income may be in future.

UK student loans aren't really loans at all - they don't have to be repaid in full. They're actually a graduate tax of 9% on all earnings over a threshold, and if the sum isn't repaid after 30 years, it's written off.

What a depressing read. My sister's kids have EU passports and on my kids' behalf I can't wait for their happy tales of working in Europe.

It depends on what studying in a different country is worth to you, in insular Brexit Britain. Being able to use Erasmus is worth something too. A lot of German students work part time.

It's not about if it's worth something or not, for most people it's not financially possible. If you've got the best part of €25,000 in your bank account, great, but to portray it as a viable option for other families is misleading.

@Nothapppy

It depends on what studying in a different country is worth to you, in insular Brexit Britain. Being able to use Erasmus is worth something too. A lot of German students work part time.

Absolutely worth it, but you have to be able to afford it.

I don't know whether working is allowed with a student visa.

I think in some countries it is possible to work on a student visa, but again that brings up language issues. You would need B2/C1 level skills to just do a basic job.

It's possible to work there on a student visa, but there are some limitations which do not exist for EU students.
Post-Covid finding part time work may well be difficult. I agree that you need to be able to speak the language at a reasonable level, but I'd hope that any young person who went to a German university, even to study a course in English, would have made an effort before moving there and would make good progress in the language when there. It's a tricky language, but it's not like learning some very difficult language like Finnish. Assuming that you're just working in MacDonalds or something.
Vast numbers of foreign students study in the UK or the US. So if they can do it...

Vast numbers of foreign students study in the UK or the US. So if they can do it...

Most international students in the UK are self-funded (per the Times Higher Education website).

The same is true of the USA. To get an F student visa you must have sufficient funds available for self-support during the entire proposed course of study (per US CIS).

The same will be true of UK students who have no EU citizenship wanting to study at EU universities. They will have to be self-funded.

Getting a part-time job would certainly help, though you would have to have proof of financial resources without counting this to obtain your visa.

It will be doable, for a limited number of people.

My DD looked at studying for a degree in the Netherlands some years before Brexit, but we couldn't afford to pay her living costs.

I'm grateful to fate and timing that she was able to do an Erasmus semester which cost us virtually nothing - small sums of pocket money for nice-to-haves rather than essentials.

DS did an Erasmus year. Much cheaper than if he'd stayed in UK. And it ignited his love of Europe - hence the situation we find ourselves in.