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Living overseas

Whether you're considering emigrating or an expat abroad, you'll find likeminds on this forum.

Moving (back) to Australia- should we?

77 replies

Pepvixen · 30/12/2020 19:36

DH and I are dual citizens, have lived here since post grad studies. Have good jobs and lovely home in London. DS is 7. We're low contact with parents for various reasons. We're from a provincial city in Aus, so no comparable jobs. Lots of friends though. We've never considered returning but are now thinking of it, primarily for DS long term if the economy is damaged by Brexit. Any thoughts? What would you do?

OP posts:
tentative3 · 07/01/2021 21:36

We talk often about moving back to Australia but never actually do it. We had a great life and I miss many things about it, but... I don't know. I would miss the proximity to Europe, some of the things we enjoy doing in the UK are less easily done in Australia. The family pull to stay here is strong, even though on my part my family would tell me to go in a heartbeat. Climate change worries me hugely. Australian kids always seemed nicer, healthier, than UK kids but it's hard to reconcile with the drug issues.

We left for several reasons and I always had this kind of worry at the back of my mind that something would happen to trap us there - I envisioned climate change or terrorism to be honest, not a pandemic - but I think if we were there now I would find the fact that I couldn't leave really incredibly claustrophobic.

Having the choice is as much a curse as it is a blessing.

Kaiken · 07/01/2021 22:50

" Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), article 13: 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State. ... Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. "

Right now, and this since March last year, this right is non - existent in Australia. Not only that, but the tone of the government is cruel towards Australian as if they were criminals " we told you to come home" is their reply.
But there are many examples which show that this is not really fair.
A family living in New York, with primary school kids born there, parents have a job, a house, kids go to school, in March , why should they leave to go to a country in which they have no job, no house, especially since no program is there to help them. 3 months later, the company they work for closes its business, they try to come home to their parents' house, to be told, " too late" .

Not everyone was on a tropical beach drinking a cocktail. Some were caring for dying parents, and want to come back after funeral. Others want to be able to hold the hand of a dying family member, or see a demented parent while they can still recognise them, help a son in law with the kids when mother is going through cancer treatment, and so on.

It is very disturbing that you can't leave a democratic country, nor come back to it.
One of the many newspaper articles is www.smh.com.au/world/europe/i-am-on-prison-island-australia-s-travel-ban-tearing-families-apart-20200707-p559z4.html

It is especially the tone of politicians and random public in general when they post comments in the SMH or Guardian that shocks me. The hate, the spite, they are almost vengeful, almost enjoying it in a "serves you right" way.

Crazy on so many levels. The way every state argues with the neighbouring states, shutting borders instead of helping each other, insulting the premiers next door for bringing covid in their state and when I think they just change the national anthem to the words " we are one" nope, definitely not.

ReefTeeth · 07/01/2021 23:07

Ok @Kaiken, we get you don't like Australia.

But can you please stop with the deliberate misrepresentation.

Yes, the borders are closed, but this is the first time in our history! The states are not arguing, they are disagreeing on things.

I personally am happy our internal and external borders have been closed. It's made me feel safer, it's made me believe the politicians have some common sense unlike in the UK

sunbunnydownunder · 07/01/2021 23:58

Yes I agree with you ReefTeeth. Yes it is shit that we can't travel and family can't travel here but it is a short term pain. I am glad we have a premier who makes clear announcements and everyone knows whats expected unlike the UK. I am sure if I looked I could find some equally horrifying stats about the UK but just like the UK most people don't experience what has been quoted. As for racism any country where the large proportion of people voted to keep foreigners out as part of their reasoning towards voting for Brexit really hasn't a strong argument to start with.

Neither country is perfect and will have plus and minus for each. For our family Australia works, our children are thriving. London would not work for us, we don't like massive big cities and living so close to your neighbours.

Cormoran · 08/01/2021 00:31

@ReefTeeth you don't get it at all.

The point of this discussion is to get both sides on the option of moving to Australia. I would even add that if I were to move to another country, I would be very interested in the negative points highlighted.

And I stand to disagree with your comment. I have done no misrepresentation. There is nothing false or misleading in what I have written in any of my posts. Even on the states arguing
" Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk has slammed her NSW counterpart Gladys Berejiklian over a plea to keep borders open."
Arguing or disagreeing ? Subtle ....

I get that you love Australia, good on you since you are here. I loved it too in the first years, and then slowly, one disturbing fact after the other, I had a new set of eyes.

If you are uninterested in the imprisonment and torture of teens,
"https://www.smh.com.au/national/abc-four-corners-airs-footage-of-tear-gassing-at-don-dale-detention-centre-20160725-gqdhg1.html"

which is maybe far from your interest, what about the fact that during the pandemic, retirement homes were prohibited to send positive residents to hospital thus causing so many to die?

Just a couple of examples
www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-23/four-corners-newmarch-house-coronavirus-australia/12345726?nw=0
www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/aged-care-home-had-request-to-transfer-virus-cases-to-hospital-denied-20200716-p55cr0.html
despite the fact that there was no saturation in the hospitals or shortage of beds.

All these examples, show a lack of heart over the years and over so many topics. I am not saying this to you nor trying to make you see the other side of the medal.

One likes to see and read facts they agree with and will forcibly dismiss any view that is not shared. Human nature.

ReefTeeth · 08/01/2021 00:44

@Cormoran of course I get it Hmm

But post after continual post of negativity. Lots of people don't like Australia or Australians. It's a racist country, it's far from anywhere, Aussies are insular, it's backwards...have I forgotten anything??

I constantly read this on MN, and most times I can say yeah ok, I see that point.

But FFS, enough.

Cormoran · 08/01/2021 01:49

It's a racist country -= is it not?
It's far from anywhere = is it not?
Aussies are insular = are they not?
it's backwards = don't really see what you mean

All countries are a mixture of black and white. If you prefer to have your blinkers on and only see what you want or what affects your family and ignore anything else, fine . But you can't accuse of misrepresentation any argument you don't like or doesn't fit your ideal. It is a matter of being objective. You are taking it personally for some reason.

Figgyboa · 08/01/2021 03:32

Yes, in a heartbeat. Im a dual citizen and wish I had moved back earlier. Quality of life is #1 for me and I found this diminished in London....mix of weather, cost of living, crowds etc. Whilst I dont live Oz now I do in a comparable country. 5 mins from the beach, great outdoor lifestyle, temperate weather all year round, no rain!!

TheSandgroper · 08/01/2021 04:10

This is not the first time our borders between states have been closed
trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword=Border%20closed&l-artType=newspapers&l-state=New%20South%20Wales&l-decade=191&l-year=1919

It isn’t raining, hasn’t rained for weeks and won’t be raining for months.

My DB has over 700 vacancies on his books today.

And, re the border closures and quarantine, history tells us what happens to the First People of Australia when a new disease is introduced. If none of our political leaders wish to be the one who presides over the annihilation of the oldest culture in the world, that’s fine with me. A cousin who works closely with remote aboriginal communities is pleased and relieved with the measures taken.

silentpool · 08/01/2021 04:37

I've moved back after living in a variety of countries. I have a renewed appreciation for the place. The grass isn't greener anywhere and I thought my quality of life in London was poor. Depends what you want in life I suppose. I have been to nearly 50 different countries and had a lot of experiences, so it's not like I'm lacking comparisons. Now I'm happy for a slower pace of life, fresh air and more outdoor activities.

spottygymbag · 08/01/2021 04:55

Re the exit strategy from covid mentioned upthread, the well publicised vaccination strategy was scheduled to begin in March, now looking like Feb with the majority to be completed by October of this year.
We've all been doing a pretty good job of living with the virus and have mostly accepted the lighter restrictions because we recognise that without them we would be facing a much tougher situation,
Yes borders have been shut but everyone I know here is relieved that the impact has been lessened by those actions.
It has been raining a bit these last couple of weeks but honestly it's a bit of a novelty and the thunderstorms have been amazing. We've also had stunning summer days at the beach in that same time period.
I find the workplace culture less petty than the UK but more mature than NZ.
There is an acceptance of work life balance. The public schools are good in my area. Car ownership is expensive but we did without one for the first year and had a blast anyway. Now we just have a standard 4-door for convenience.
There were and are plenty of options for rentals although purchasing in certain areas is eye watering.
I love that we can walk to everything we need. Our neighbours are friendly, we don't seem to have many parking disputes.
A lot of people seem to judge Australia for daring to have its own culture, history and frame of reference.
I say this as a kiwi living in Sydney but I've spent a huge amount of time in the UK over the years (family originally from Scotland).

Chookie89 · 08/01/2021 05:46

Hi OP. I am Australian, in Australia and (like a lot of other Aussies) have spent time in England for work reasons.

Agree with the poster above who mentioned it was worth thinking about the particular industries you and your partner work in, as something like the arts (as poster mentioned) is really bad here at the moment.

Also second the sentiments of @Ozgirl75 who nails everything I wanted to say, really.

It is a fantastic place for kids to grow up, by and large. Australian cities are very multicultural - not quite London of course, but far more integrated than somewhere like New York.

The current education system varies from place to place. The coalition have done their best to tear tertiary education to shreds. Not sure of comparison with UK. I do note that an Australian friend who did a third-year exchange to a London university some years ago, found that course learning objectives were the same as she'd covered in first-year in Australia. (Guess we're not that stupid after all). So perhaps don't freak out about that.

The vaccine will roll out in the next eight weeks, though our present community transmission is almost zero since November. Yes interstate borders are opening and shutting constantly, but we're all sort of getting on with it.

This isn't directed at you Op, but - like other posters have mentioned - the attitude of some mumsnet posters to 'silly little colonial outposts' like 21st century Australia are ridiculous and frankly, xenophobic.

As you (unlike many of the posters here) would know OP, many Australians have experienced living in Europe, Asia and elsewhere in the world. Many of us work with Indigenous Australians and migrant groups on a daily basis. We're hardly a cultural backwater. We have
40 000 years of history, a fact conveniently forgotten by British posters ironically complaining of racism in Australia.

Yobs of dickhead Australian tourists are matched by mobs of dickhead British tourists that can be found in various parts of Europe and Asia. Some of their boomer British parents can be found continuing the colonial legacy by feeling entitled to settle in places like Portugal and Spain, or wherever else they feel like being at the time while enjoying a British pension and NHS. (pity the locals don't enjoy the same privileges).

@Kaiken, your notion that Australia has 'no culture' compared to Europe is xenophobic and ignorant. The notion that we don't do enough to represent Indigenous culture would have been a valid criticism ten years ago but things are really changing.

Here in Western Australia, our state museum has just reopened and is totally centred in Indigenous perspectives. Meanwhile the British museum is still hoarding stolen Indigenous artefacts and arguing over legacies of British slavery.

There are multiple Indigenous cultural centres, social justice groups, and tourism/education activities throughout WA. They welcome new participants from all communities. I suspect it's the same elsewhere in Australia. What are you doing to support Indigenous social justice movements?

Yes, Australia is racist, as the UK continues to be. At the same time, anyone who's done any scrap of imperial history can tell you the chief beneficiaries of white supremacy in the colonies was the English ruling class. Along with wealthy settler Australians, white British middle and upper classes continue to benefit from these legacies.

Yes mining is a problem, but look where the royalties go. (Apart from a handful of Australian billionaires, most of the wealth goes to Europe. Especially Rio Tinto - the queen is a 49% shareholder). Where were the protests in Europe over the destruction of the caves? Why did British people not take to the streets over the Queen's profiting from the continued destruction of Indigenous lands and culture in Australia? There were plenty of these protests in Australia. Did you attend any?

Also - If it is taking your cleaner five years to save enough to visit her family, maybe you should pay her more?

Rant over: @Pepvixen, If you're not happy about climate change, come over here and fight with us to change it. 77% of Australians believe it's a problem; our politicians are way behind community and corporate expectations. The first ever Green party was created in Tasmania and our conservation activism has been world-leading in many respects. Come and help us outSmile!

Anyway, good luck with your decision. I know many people who have returned to Australia this year from long stints overseas and are generally happy with their decision. It's a wonderful place, getting more progressive at a community level each year. And it's frigging beautiful!

Chookie89 · 08/01/2021 05:47

@spottygymbag couldn't agree more! Great summary.

Pepvixen · 08/01/2021 10:06

Hello all - thank you so much for all the perspectives. A bit side eye about the Aussie bashing, there's good and bad in all countries.

We're no closer to a decision, other than that we won't do anything imminently. This isn't about Covid really (other than horror at the lack of competence of the govt), but more medium/long-term. When I first moved here I was shocked by how things just didn't work as well as in Aus. There's a higher level of competence across govt and private sectors I think. While there is plenty to criticise the Australian govt for (we broke out the champagne when the Howard govt fell), I can't imagine the gross incompetence over there.

Pros to leaving:

  • Economic prospects (?)
  • Space / weather / pace of life
  • Being close to some good old friends and my brother
  • DS growing up with cousins
  • Going to AFL games (that's DH :D)
  • Beach
  • Wineries

Cons to leaving:

  • Disruption to career (we work in NHS (not frontline, more policy/project management) and a public body that equivalent has jobs only in Syd/Melb
  • Leaving forever house we have just finished renovating
  • Not a good time to end mortgage (ie will pay off in 10 years with no disruption, but less equity if we cash out now)
  • Leaving most of our friends (we have been here nearly 20 years)
  • Less easy to travel to Europe / Americas
  • More affected by climate change / bushfires
  • Less annual leave
OP posts:
DrJump · 08/01/2021 21:27

In situations like this I think a coin toss is a good way to choose.

if you choose heads Australia and its tails and you are feeling a sense of relief and calm then maybe the move isn’t right. Or if heads comes up and you think thank god it was heads I’m ready to be out of here then you have your answer. You don’t have to follow what the coin says but your reaction might help settle your internal argument.

spottygymbag · 09/01/2021 01:22

There are big differences between Sydney and Melbourne. What would you prefer? Maybe contact some recruiters over here and see what sort of packages are on the table as this might also influence your location choice.
The space and adventure possibilities are definitely a winner (as are the wineries!!).
As much as I love it here we will likely relocate back to NZ in the long term to be nearer family and for our kids to closer to their cousins so I can see how that is factor for you. When you image yourselves retired what do you picture? What activities/lifestyle would be your ideal?

CrystalDeCanter · 09/01/2021 02:38

Great post Chookie89

Pepvixen · 09/01/2021 07:34

We're not from Syd or Melb though spottygymbag, so I think there would be career disruption (my preference would be Melbourne if it came to it!). Love the idea of the coin toss - I'll suggest it to DH.

OP posts:
Remaker · 09/01/2021 08:34

I am Australian and DH is English. We’ve always lived in Sydney and now our kids are in high school we have closed the door on any thoughts of moving to the UK with them. Instead our plan is to split our time across both countries after we retire.

I absolutely love the UK and could happily live there but DH really believes that our kids have a better quality of life here. I have to laugh at the accusations of racism. Living in Sydney our kids attend public schools where 90% of students come from a non English speaking background. They don’t need dinner table conversations to stop them turning into racists, in fact they often teach us a thing or two. Most expats awaiting their next “posting” send their children to expensive private schools where they are cloistered away with the rich and privileged and never have contact with indigenous or migrant children. We unfortunately have a family member living in England who is associated with the EDL and several who voted Leave solely to “get the Muslims out” but I wouldn’t be so ridiculous as to call the whole country racist on that basis.

As for accessing the culture of Europe I am sure once UK residents are free to travel again we will see DH’s relatives posting photos of themselves drinking lager at 9am as they await their Easyjet flight for two weeks all inclusive in Magaluf. My kids have been to Europe twice and they’ve experienced far more European culture than their British cousins ever have.

On the con side I would do your sums as house prices are astronomical in many Australian cities. It makes me want to cry seeing what we could own for half the price of our house. Most Australians spend far less time commuting than many people in the UK. The obsession with schools is common across both countries so not much difference there.

Travel is the big thing for me, I wish we were able to spend long weekends in European cities. However if you spend all your holidays at sunny resorts you can live in the suburbs of Sydney and go to the beach every weekend plus have a pool in your own backyard. Or drive for an hour or two for a beachside holiday.

If your child is sporty I’d say there are more opportunities to participate here because of the weather and the facilities, not to mention our obsession with sport!

I genuinely feel that we could have been happy living in either place and it’s great to have the option. Perhaps there are no bad choices, just embrace whichever one you make! Good luck.

Ozgirl75 · 09/01/2021 09:10

Agree with a lot of your points @Remaker - although my children are at a private school and there are children from a wide variety of cultural backgrounds.

Ozgirl75 · 09/01/2021 09:12

Although I accept that migrants from the U.K., China, Japan, India, Sri Lanka etc are probably not the kind of migrants you’re talking about.
But to be fair, even at the local state school it would be a similar demographic, just based on the area we live in.

Redburnett · 09/01/2021 09:17

My answer would be yes, but I may be looking through rose-tinted specs after only one holiday there.

aussiegonewrong · 12/01/2021 20:18

It's never an easy decision we have been back in the Uk for the last two years after 25 or so years in Sydney as recently retired.
In an ideal world would be great to spend time in both countries but its complicated with tax issues and residency issues
We need to get back now to our house there but have been bumped of a flight which was triple what you would normally pay with no chance of getting on another for months due to the lower caps the govt recently announced .
I miss the beauty of Sydney and the easy lifestyle but I always missed my family
I love the Uk too in normal times it's just such an interesting place
That's the main problem with Australia it's just so far away

DemiGorgon · 19/02/2021 03:44

Some big picture things here in Aus have been really highlighted recently.

I always thought of Aus as a unified country. covid and borders slamming shut have shown how we are still a bunch of states with a common passport. The way Qld has behaved towards people wanting to cross state borders to see dying parents/kids has shocked me with their lack of compassion.

Vic (my state) has brought in harsh covid restrictions and I think the economy will struggle for years.

The PM (useless arse) is appalling both personally and as an institution. It is toothless.

State governments have been flogging of our most valuable assets- water and huge tracts of land- to the Chinese and really don't care if the area is a drought ridden area. Only the wonderful money flow matters.

I had always drifted along thinking things were not bad, but now I see the huge corruption in government (have you read about the rape of a staffer in Canberra? Covered up), lack of interest towards average people and no planning for the future.
Plus Covid has really brought the racism to the fore- again I never madly noticed before but it is blatant now.

I am so sad for this country right now

Plumedenom · 19/02/2021 04:07

Are you wfh? Could you work from Australia for a year and give it a spin?

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