Quick! Please tell me why I shouldn't pack my bags and dd and fly back to the UK

[SSSandy2]

OK seriously fed up with the school situation and everything here and wondering if I shouldn't just call it a day and pack up and leave.

You KNOW the feeling.

So, quick, please tell me all the bad things about living in the UK with children and about the schools and things there.

I've just thought of another good reason to stay - the health care in Germany is not comparable to NHS in the UK. Depending on where you would live of course, but there seems to be huge waiting lists for almost anything beyond a simple visit to a GP. If you need to be referred to a specialist it can take months to get an appointment and you could have to travel miles.

One example, my sister has a 10 year old dd and had to wait 2 months to see a specialist just to ask if she might need a brace on her top teeth (which look a mess). He sent her away and told her to check again in 1 year, didn't even xray. I flew home to Germany a week later my 2 dc had been seen, xrayed and fitted for a brace and the NEXT DAY the braces were ready.

I've heard of other examples too from family and friends having to wait ages for things like eyes, teeth and skin problems. The only way to get quick health care seems to be to go private. Especially if you need an operation so that would be one thing to think about too, could you afford private or afford to wait? (Not that I'm trying to convince you to stay in smelly old Berlin of course )

Thanks everyone, I haven't been answering because I'm thinking through what you have all said. It's a very big issue for me and I have really looked into what kind of schools are available and possible for dd. I began when she was born and I really don't think I have overseen something. If there was a really good primary school where I thought she might be happy and flourish - and we could get a place there, you can be sure I would have placed her there.

I am really not happy with any of the primary options I know of here. There are two that might be ok, one I could not get accepted for and the other has other major drawbacks.

I haven't slept through a night for a very long time because of it - last school year with the bullying, through the school holidays, worrying what to do next and now worrying that the new school is not what I want for dd.

So, no I don't think I am making an issue of it where there isn't one in order to have a reason for leaving IYSWIM. I think it is a very big problem for us. It would be nice if I could talk to dh about it, but he just blocks off and won't discuss it at all. He expects me to just find a solution and there does not seem to be one.

Anna your school may be totally different, more academic and so on. Don't want to unsettle anyone else!

Fink, I'm so glad to hear he's happier. It's hell for us mums, isn't it, to take them off to school when you can see how unhappy they are? Yes the secondary school recommendation worries me but the whole level of academic attainment does generally too. She's so far ahead of the class and she isn't learning anything. She's the kind who constantly reads and wants to learn new things, so I'm really disatisfied with that aspect of it longer term. It would be ok say till the end of the year but not for years and years.

admylin, I know the health care system is good here in comparison. A lot of things are organised and carried out better here, I know that too but the primary education here in Berlin at least is really very poor. Everyone says so, the English speaking teachers, German parents, the govt. It's no secret, is it? They will get on top of it eventually, I'm sure of it but by then it will be too late for us.

Hi SSSandy,

sorry to hear that you are unhappy with your DDs school. I assume that you have looked at other schools in your area?

One thing does strike me, do you think that the difference between German and British schools is partly due to starting ages. Most German children start school at least 1 year, some 2 years after their British counterparts. This is why especially P1 and P2 seem more fun and childlike, I compare that to Vorschule in Kindergarten.

I do feel that the jump from Kindergarten to school here is so difficult as they come out of the wrapped in cotton wool environment of kindergarten and into the "Ernst des Lebens" of school. I am dreading our DD going to school next year.

Saying all of that, I do find it unacceptable that the children are being taught in your DDs school as if education had not moved on in the last 30 years. Shouting at the children is not ok.

As to staying in Germany, one of the big things that would make me think twice, is the health service. After reading some of the threads here about women thinking they have had a miscarriage and having to wait days and days to get a scan and have it confirmed, I am really glad to be here.

Are there any Waldorf schools near you? I have heard htat they are better than the state schools.

Hi SSSandy, I am sorry to hear situation is not getting better!

I know it's got nothing to do with schools but yes the NHS is something to bear in mind when thinking to move back. (DH has been waiting 2 years for a hernia operation! Friend's DD, born with a disability is still waiting for an X-ray after 2 years.)

I know nothing of germany so I am probably not much help. Like franca I thought they'd be pretty good.

I am sure I will find the uk school system strange (for a start starting at 4 is madness IMO) but I am happy to go along with it. I'll struggle to understand why there's no dictation and copying of texts (which might help with a better spelling) and learning poems by heart. but then again I am sure that the italian way lacks million things that the english method possess.
Also I am happy with my life here in general which makes it easier I guess, and the fact that we have moved near good schools.
(I was reminishing with DH about schools in our days and remembered that teachers in high schools used to smoke in class while doing lessons! very shocking now but perfectly normal then! absurd!)

But But I'd go insane if there's bullying that goes unaddressed. So I feel for you.

I think you've been there enough. Time to come home.

Whereabouts are you in Berlin? We live in Wittenau and my dcs go the the French school which is just round the corner. Not sure how old your dd is, but there are lots of German children in the school who speak no French when they arrive, but soon pick it up. It is a really nice school. We are at the French school because dh works for a French company and eventually we will return to Paris. For my part, I would love to stay in Berlin forever for so many reasons - I can't think of a better place to bring up kids. Not sure I can give you reasons not to live in Britain - having not lived there myself for ten years - but I can think of a lot of reasons for staying in Berlin, low cost of living - especially housing, great health service, good public transport and relatively traffic free roads in you want to drive and certainly lots of parking, lots of things to do with kids which are not expensive, I could go on and on (and frequently do). Don't know if that's much help.

LilianGish, must check out Wittenau if it's traffic free! We live in Mitte and it's a nightmare - the roads are packed and the bus drivers are crazy!

Sandy, someone told me that the Waldorfschulen are the best in Berlin too. What did you find out about them?

I meant traffic free relative to the south of England - we were over in the summer and it really was a nightmare! DS lined up his matchbox cars across the living room carpet and said he was playing that they were in England.

OK, that is true, Berlin is still quite easy going if you compare it to that part of the UK! I always forget as when we go back home we're in the countryside in the middle of a national park so I'm spoilt!

Smoking in schools?! Imagine the reaction nowadays!

Lilian I did consider the French school when I looked into all the private options. What I don't like is that the day is as long 8-4 which doesn't suit us, even if they do have Wednesdays off. Also it is very far from where we live so with the additional travel those 4 days would be marathon days for us really. I suppose we could move to live close to the school but dd would still have to cope with yet another language and that a language which is not particularly relevant to our family, circumstances IYSWIM. Unlike you, I think it very unlikely that we will ever move to France.

I'd be really interested to hear what you like about the school though and in what ways you find it "nice". I know next to nothing about French schools so I really wouldn't know what dd would be getting into. Might be great but I have no idea really.

Do you really like Berlin Lilian? My dd hates it here. She's always asking why we have to live in this "dumbo country" and why we can't live somewhere like Denmark where people are nice to children and smile at them.

Admylin, yes of course, I looked at the Waldorf schools last year and I like the artwork and carpentry, needlework aspects of it etc but I do want an academically high achieving school which they are generally not considered to be - and I dislike some of the philosophy behind it and what they teach. I read a few sites on it and found it was a bit whacky for my taste. Might be great and maybe dd would love it but I'm not really the type for a Waldorf school, I don't think. Dd's art teacher taught at one for a while in Zehlendorf and told me a bit about it. She's also very worried about finding a decent school for her grandchild. They are planning to send her to school in Russia when the time comes.

Morning SSSandy have you just got back from your trip across Berlin? What is the transport like? Is it full or is it too early? Must be adding to the tiredness for dd though.
Mine are tired out when they've been across Berlin with the class just for the day! Lillian sounds very positive about Berlin, maybe she could rub abit of it on to us! I must admit though, I always liked the way the French treated chilfdren, maybe they havethat atmosphere from school and don't notice the negative sides so much.
My two talk exactly like your dd about having to live here. In the UK I had ds in tears one day because no one would believe him that the German clock or more like telling the time is so different and they just wouldn't have it that half four meant half three. When I confirmed what he had been trying to explain one adult just said 'well the Germans are silly aren't they'. not very diplomatic I know and he burst into tears.

Ah admylin. I sent you a long waffly email which you haven't seen yet.

Back to my usual strategy and dd is home sick at the moment. She is sneezing and snuffly but not dramatically sick tbh. She is all into Rome at the moment and wants to learn Latin which she says I have to teach her now. She keeps trotting about chanting vir fortissimus in mundo quoting from the books she's been reading and all fired up with it at the moment. She's been reading the magisches Baumhaus book about Rome with the Forscherhandbuch at the back so we're doing Rome at home today and catching up on some maths. Do you know those? They're translated from English. Your ds might like reading them in the original. Also going to Hugenduebel to buy some more books and stuff.

Good for Lilian enjoying life here. Tis possible then after all! I would enjoy it more if I didn't have dd to worry about and if I could go dancing at the weekends and such.

We looked at Wittenau in our weekend house hunting searches or even further north (I think) - Lubars. The French school also has a long day though 8-4 x 4 days and it's MILES from here. The French mums I've met are very gentle with their dc but I don't know how French schoolteachers are. No idea at all. I thought they were REALLY strict actually, don't know why I thought that though.

Lubars is like the countryside. Have you been out there Lin? Might make a nice weekend trip with the dc. Take your bikes, it's all fields, a little old church and cobbled streets in the centre and a lot of riding schools/stables. You can see an ugly stack of skyscrapers from Lubars which are in the East, I think, but apart from that you really feel way out of Berlin there.

here you go:www.bildervonberlin.de/thumbnails.php?album=37

Morning SSSandy. Sorry to hear dd is not well. Don't really know where to start with all the things I like about Berlin. We were in Paris before which is really beautiful, but apartments are tiny. Here, for about the same price as our 2-bed apartment there we have five bedrooms, a garden, a garage - can't even begin to imagine what the equivalent would cost in London which is where we would be living if we were posted to England. Don't know where you live in Berlin, but Alt-Wittenau where we are is just fabulous - we have the Steinberg Park at the end of our road with endless bike trails, a lake, a playground - I feel as if I'm in the country, but I'm living in the capital. You mention Lubars - we take the kids to a little farm there nearly every week - it is free, they can see the animals, play in a huge adventure playground and there is a lovely cafe (really cheap - even after three years here I still can't get over how sheap it is to go out to eat compared to Paris and the UK - another big plus). In the summer we also spent a lot of the time at Strandbad Lubars - just fabulous, almost better than a real beach when the children are small. Tegel Lake is another great amenity - I can't think of another city where you'd have so much open space for the kids to play.
I mentioned driving before because when we lived in Paris I was much too scared to get behind the wheel. I think after a while you get a bit blase - we just had friends over from England and drove them into the middle of Berlin. They were asking why it was so quiet - it was a normal day. It's easy to forget just how congested the UK is (they live in York). Actually my kids are public transport enthusiasts - especially ds - and it's very cheap to ride on the buses and trains and much easier to negotiate than the Paris Metro especially when we arrived and I still had a pushchair.
You mention the Berlinners being unfriendly - I have to say that is not my experience. We live in a house which shares a drive with five others, we are the only ones with small children, but the neighbours couldn't be friendly. Ds and dd are allowed to use the swing next door, they visit a cat at another house and have been in the swimming of the house behind. Two of our neighbours have practically adopted the dcs in the absence of their own grandchildren and are always giving them presents - St Nicolas, Christmas, Easter, birthdays, going back to school, coming home from holidays - they couldn't be nicer.
That's enough about Berlin - I could go on all day!
The French school is great for us as I need my children to speak French when we return to France. There are a number of German families at the school who live round here and put their kids in because they like the school. The hours are 8.30 to 4, but no school Wednesday - which I think is a nice rhythmn though I'm not sure how that would work if I was working. The French system itself is quite academic - my dcs are 6 and 4 so we are just starting out and I'm no expert. So far I like the fact that it is quite disciplined and my dcs respond very well to this. Some people might say there is not much room for individuality, but I think its no bad thing for them to learn that sometimes you have to fit in and obey the rules. Dd, now six, has just started in school proper and she is learning to read and write - in upper case, lower case and joined up all at the same time. She has homework every night, but its not too arduous - just reinforcing what they've done at school - its a good way for parents to see what they are learning. I suppose really the reason I like the school is that the dcs are just SO happy there - they love their teachers, they've mad lots of friends and its just a really happy little environment.
Sorry to go on - but you did ask

Was it difficult to get a place at the school Lillian, and will they have to learn English as a foreign language later on or is there something else they could do instead of that?

I think you are not "in Berlin" as such which makes it a lot less stressful. We are bang smack in the middle, just off Ku'damm and admylin is in Mitte.

Not difficult to get a place in the maternelle (kindergarten bit) where mine both started aged three, they are always keen to have new blood. Not sure how it works further up the school, but they are by no means over-subscribed. How old is dd? One advantage of the French system is that you move up according to your ability and can retake a year if you are struggling or jump a year if you are especially bright. Means dd might be able to drop back a bit while she picks up French and then push on ahead later (just a thought - don't quote me). Not sure how you would feel about her being a French speaking school - I think that if she is already bilingual she would soon get up to speed with the language (my two are already coming on in German which is widely spoken outside the classroom).
I think they do learn English later on, but emphasis is more on German as a second language for obvious reasons. They do German every day and divide the class along the lines of Germanophone/non-Germanophone to get the level right (as I understand it - going to a meeting to find out more about dd's new class next week). Quite a few children peel off to French/German schools such as the Franzoische Gymnasium at Nollerndorf Platz (excuse spelling) where they can do the French Bac or the German Habiteur (spelling again - I'm clueless) or both.
You are probably right about my over-enthusiasm for Berlin being based on the fact that I don't live in the middle - that and the fact that I think we'll only be here for another year at the most. Much easier to ignore the negative things when you know you are not staying iyswim.

Just on a point of info - the skyscrapers you can see from Lubars are in Markische Viertel which was in the west.

She turns 7 in 2 weeks time Lilian. I think it might be difficult to join the school at this stage with no French. They may have the requirement that children joining later have sufficient French to cope with the school day so that might be a problem. It would only be realistic for us though, if like you, we lived up north, Helmsdorf or Wittenau or somewhere like that.

Will consider it. Our situation is a bit different to yours really. I don't know if I would be doing her a favour making her learn yet another language at this stage but on the other hand , she's not learning anything much at school at the moment.

I think you may feel a lot happier here too because you have not been through the German kindergarten/school system which is very different - and IME - not very good.

I think too if you know you are moving on, everything looks very different. I don't know I was talking to my father about this and he said when he and my mother moved about, they always went hand-in-hand, so it was very much the two of them in it together. Your relationship might be more like that too, mine unfortunately isn't!

Ah that's right Maerkisches Viertel. Didn't know it was in the West. Ugly in any case.

I think you are probably right SSSandy (great nickname btw) - unless you live near the school it makes it a very long day (easy-peasy Berlin traffic notwithstanding ). I also think you probably need to have another reason to learn French other than just to attend the school. Your father's description of him and your mum sounds just like me and dh. I can't believe I've turned into such a traditional wife, but I think it's the only way you can be if one of you has a job which involves moving around. I knew what I was getting into when I married him and I can't deny I love being a SAHM. I did work for a while in Paris, but it's not really possible here - I'm quite glad not to have the dilemma of whether to go back as I think the kids really need me to be around at the moment. Hope you sort out your situation - sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

BTW, dh will be very jealous of you and Admylin living in the middle of town - he thinks we're too suburban for words. I try to remind him that we used to live in the middle of Paris, but we didn't get out much after the dcs were born - he still thinks he's missing something!

liliangish, isn't the grass always greener! I was just saying to amum at school yesterday that I want to go somewhere and just be able to see fields and trees! A few hills would be an added bonus!
Just remind your dh that a flat in Mitte costs a fortune too.

Lilian, well if he is a great fan of building noise, he should definitely move to be more central!

Lilian, I'd love to ask you some more questions about the school and how they organise the school day, how you find the staff and the other children/families and so on. Would it be possible to mail you or call you? my email is iskrennii at yahoo dot com.

SSSandy2 - my friend from Berlin (she of the six daughters ) called me yesterday... she has moved back to France because she just didn't think the education was good enough in Germany. I know that that is not really what you need to hear, but since I had told you previously that she was happy about education in Berlin I thought I ought to come clean.