Raising Kids in the US or UK

[usorukcantdecide]

We live in London at the minute. One of us is English, the other is American, but we have both lived in both countries quite a lot, and feel comfortable in each. That said, for one of us England is much better work-wise (and perhaps personality wise) for one and for the other America is much better. That's just the way it is, job-wise.

We have two young kids (one in Reception now) and we really want to decide where we are going to settle down, as the older they get the harder they will be to uproot!

So since we are split on which place we like better, I'm wanting to know what people really think is better for kids. I know, it's vague. But what are the factors -- like schooling, etc? If it helps, the choices are between London and a large city in the Northeast (probably New York or Boston.) Assume living costs are about the same (though we have more for our money in London than NYC, for example) and that we would always strive to live in a place with good public schools.

London feeling really grim at the minute (and the UK in general with Brexit) is pushing this a bit, but hopefully that's just temporary!

Guess I'm thinking: schooling, personality, pressure, guns (!), lifestyle, etc. Politics is terrible in both places. All seem to have pluses and minuses.

Thoughts welcome!

bliminy what part of the US do you live in? I've found that our state and county and then district massively influences the quality of education available - usually correlates with house and property prices being higher. And is your job industry tech or finance? I ask as those are the only ones I know of that give roughly that amount of vacation - if you're in media, entry level jobs, public service etc you tend to not get more than 10-15 days (round here in NYS anyway)

It's worth considering the extortionate university fees in the US as well. A hundred grand (GBP!) just for tuition at top colleges. A US high school diploma won't get them into university in the UK (unless school offers an IB programme).

Au contraire, many students from my local public high school are successful applicants to UK universities every year, without the IB. Students who have done AP courses and who have done well in the AP exams are very welcome in top UK universities. DD4 is also friends with a student who is heading to Germany for university.

The cost of instate tuition plus room and board in many states can be far less than those costs in a private university. In some states you are basically getting an Ivy league education for well under the Ivy League cost - lucky residents of Michigan, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Illinois, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Massachusetts, Vermont, Texas, California, Ohio, Washington get first dibs on a first class education. Admission is highly competitive.

...not sure I have ever been believed but I have never seen a gun in my time here (25 years) outside of a police or security person's holster. In 25 years I have never been the victim of any kind of crime big or small. My children worry about the issue of gun control in the US but they don't worry about violence to them from guns. They are also exposed to far less tolerence of alcohol and drunkenness - yeah teens try drinking but there isn't the same "ah well all teens drink, right?" attitude that I see on UK MN and in Ireland.
Agree with Pallisers.
I regularly leave my back door unlocked, even at night. You can leave your children's little toys out in your (unfenced, unhedged) front garden overnight and they won't be stolen. People have block parties every year on summer weekends. For the most part, people obey leash laws and pick up after their dogs. People go out en famille for trick or treating. People swop hand me down children's clothing and equipment and winter jackets/snow bibs/boots. People go to wakes. People sit out on front steps chatting on summer evenings. You get to know your neighbours. There is a fantastic and well funded local library system offering all sorts of programmes for all ages and interests, and great parks, playgrounds, pools and rinks.

I have been mugged once since 1988. The only experience of violence I had was actually from exH and the police arrived within minutes of my call. I live in a nice suburb where there is zero tolerance for graffiti and excellent communication between the police and the schools. Yes, students dabble in drinking and drug use, but as Pallisers says, the public level of tolerance for that is not there and the school has a fleet of social workers and other student support services to work with families if there are issues.

Fifteen minutes on foot from me are the city limits of a huge city and on the other side of the street that separates us is one of the most crime ridden areas in that city (gun crime, knife crime, drug sales, prostitution, petty crime, rape). Thousands of people board the local trains daily and travel through the blighted area to work and then home again, and just for leisure in the city too. I still haven't seen a gun or even a knife apart from the guns of the police. The school does lockdown preparedness, which nobody likes, and so do the local private high schools.

I am quite torn really, about the fact that it is possible to live in such a bubble. On the one hand, 'vive le bubble', and on the other hand it troubles me and says a lot about the US that where you live - which translates to how much you can afford to pay for where you live - determines so much of your quality of life for better or for worse.

So much of the culture of the US depends on where exactly you are. I live in a very blue area of a very blue state. People are willing (more or less to pay top dollar for excellent public services - the public school facilities are gobsmacking, easily the equivalent of the very best private schools in the UK, and students go to Ivy league and other top universities from here every year, and also to the Olympics - and local government in my municipality is very self consciously transparent. Attitudes are very different elsewhere, I realise, in terms of social conservatism/approach to taxation, etc, and on top of that I can name several suburbs near me and also the local big city where corruption/mob influence is a dead hand affecting every aspect of life when you boil it all down.

People leaving doors unlocked doesn’t mean gun crime isn’t a risk.

Another consideration for both parents is that, in the event of divorce, you probably couldn’t return to the US or UK with the DC, so would be single and living in a country you may not prefer, with additional costs etc.

It means that petty crime isn't constantly preying on your mind though.

Gun crime is a risk in certain areas at certain times of the night, but really and truly not at all in others.

Math that really does sound lovely. I suspect on our income though we wouldnt access that neighbourhood!

School shootings were not at night.

The suburbs of NYC are much more ethnically and culturally diverse than the suburbs of London. So depending on your background that may be a factor. Comparing the good state schools in places like Surrey/Kent to the top public high schools in Westchester, New Jersey, Connecticut - the facilities, the subject choices, and the extracurriculars in the US are on another level compared to the UK. If you have a sporty or arty child they are going to have more opportunities in the US.

I have lived in both NY and London, currently not living in either (random third country) but DH and I have discussed it and we will plan to return to the US with our DCs.

However given the ages of your DCs you don't need to decide yet! As pointed out a PP was incorrect - you can absolutely get accepted to British universities from US high schools, they will look at AP exams and SAT scores alongside school GPA. I had friends who went to St Andrews and Cambridge from my school. Or you may decide to stay in UK and send your DCs to boarding school in America for secondary, or vice versa!

We are back in UK Dd was moved into year 4 when we arrived and is now in a UK Hight school.
Older kids went from K to graduation in the US and one went through Uni in the US too.
Now I've had some time in UK I prefer the US system for school (we were in rural California) The older two had access to all sorts in High school, lots of extra curricular activities, clubs and teams that were part of the school and competed at county and state level. Swim team, baseball, football, chess, you name it. Even had a chance to use non sporting skills like the Yearbook club.
University. Ds went to a private uni not state. between scholaships and grants it was cheaper than state uni. FAFSA application will say how much the family contribution is. There are some ivy league school who give free tuition to families earing under a set amount. So lots of options.
Dd is entering GCSE years starting september. So at 14 it feels like she is no longer getting the broad spectrum of classes thet the boys had at this age in the US.

Troels I agree with you that I feel the US system develops more well-rounded graduates with a broad range of skills (at the expense of depth) whereas the UK system is very academic and focused on a handful of subjects (at the expense of breadth).

If you look at the International Baccalaureate which is becoming more popular globally it's much more similar to the US system - graduates need to study 6 subjects in their final two years, as opposed to 3 as in A-Levels. So if this is the way the world is moving you want your DCs to be prepared and competitive in it.

I love the US and if we could live out there for a few years I would in a heart beat. The main thing that concerns me long term (as well as insurance and college fees) is the work life balance, the attitude to annual leave, sick days etc. Unless you were in a position to negotiate.

The fact you're naturally defending the US is interesting though and you shouldn't ignore your gut. Are your children young enough to move about a bit? Live in the US for a few years for true comparison? Bill Bryson has hopped between the countries a lot, I enjoy reading his books on his experiences.

@KneelJustKneel you'd be surprised. In the US renters don't pay property tax the equivalent of council tax. The landlord pays it. Property tax is much higher in the US and the schools are funded at 3-4x the UK per pupil funding. If you're on a low income in most states you qualify for subsidised low cost health care plans.

green round here the landlord generally absorbs the property tax into the cost of rent charged.It's not uncommon as a result for a 3-4 bed house to go for $5000-$6500 a month (we live 20 miles north of NY)

Property tax differs from state to state, and county to county and from town to town, which impacts school funding. We are on the border with the next town over - our property tax is ~$10k a year cheaper than theirs for a similar house, because our city has the 4th lowest $ spending per pupil in the county (and it shows)

doh, common even!

In our area a 3-bed house would give you a property tax bill of about $4000 a year. I'm regularly astonished by how much people pay around NYC in property tax for schools that sound very similar to ours.

I mention what my relatives pay for their health insurance thinking of what OP's kids might face in future, if kids stay settled in USA.

Things that are routine in Uk secondary schools that were never offered in my US high schools (I like UK for this): cooking, textiles, DT, RE, large variety of sports. I like language tuition a lot better in American high schools (daily lessons are much better for learning languages than scatter gun small number across a fortnight).

A lot of this is very area specific, in the area I live in now the variety of activities offered in the schools, particularly at the local high school, are mind blowing, there are 27 sports, countless other activities and a far wider curriculum than I ever had access to. You can't even compare it and I went to a private school that had a lot of extras!

In the US my boys did cooking in junior high (age 13) also textiles (one Ds won 1st prize at the county fair with his sewing), RE, they also had music lessons from age 10 at school, Ds learned the saxophone. The high school has a marching band so instruments are encouraged. His High school Marching band came to London for the New year parade one year. Ds two's friend was the one marching up front with directing them.

Things that are routine in Uk secondary schools that were never offered in my US high schools (I like UK for this): cooking, textiles, DT, RE, large variety of sports

Everything here is offered in our high schools - RE is taught more as a 'history of religions throughout the world' course.

Other examples... guitar, piano, journalism, "Deep Space, Dungeons, and Dystopias", poetry, sports literature, a wide variety of programming languages, video game design, CAD and fabrication, product design, web design, electric car design, electric guitar design, architectural design, photography, certamics, graphic design, sculpture, technical theatre, automotive collision technology, automotive technology, biomedical & health science, carpentry, commercial art, cybersecurity, early childhood occupations, manufacturing technology, marine systems, masonry, new media, plumbing, welding, blacksmithing and carpentry.

Also Latin.

Oh - in the cooking courses all ingredients are supplied by the school. No having to buy a shopping list of ingredients at the last minute.

Sports include basketball, hockey, ice hockey, lacrosse, baseball, tennis, American football, swimming, sailing, cross country skiing, downhill skiing, rowing, canoeing, kayaking, paddleboarding, soccer, baseball, softball, athletics, volleyball and rugby.

I am british, raising my kids in USA. When we firdt came here I was happy with this. I find it stressful now. Every year my kids have to experience things I never did... tornado drills, lining the hallways in foetal positions... now active shooter drills. My 9 uear old came hone saying he had to hide in his cubby for 30 minutes and he was upset because his cubby faced the internal windows so a shooter could have seen him. My oldest had a real active shooter lockdown this year... in her first few weeks of high school the school got locked down because a student was shot on her way into school. The school didn't know if it happened on property and if the shooter was in the school, so everyone was on lockdow. For 2 hours my daughter was sat tearful under her desk, so stressed she forgot she uad a phone in her pocket. The girl next to her was writing a goodbye note to her family on the back of their maths test. Nobody even told the kids what had happened when the lockdown ended, they were just expe ted to go on about their day as though they hadn't spent the morning thinking they could die. It was horrible. Since then another child uas been shot on the way to her school, same area. These aren't deliberate attacks on the kids. This is randon gunshots from people aiming at each other, gang or drug related maybe. You probably wonder why I send my daughter to a school in such a dangerous area... this is central philadelphia, and the school is one of the best in the state. My choice is either put her in a private school which we can't afford, or have her risk travelling across the city every day to this school. I have found myself googling bullet proof backpacks and trying to justify the expense, before realising that those backpacks only protect against a direct hit from a handgun, and cannot penetrate an automatic rifle such as tend to be used in school shootings. My kid has taken herself out of school to march at the city hall against gun violence in schools. I hate this aspect of life here.

The oother thing I hate about raising kids in america is health care. My middle child got very sick a few years ago, with a p eumonia that had him in intensive care and requiring operation and PICC line. We nearly lost him. At that time we had really good insurance. We still got billed for almost $10,000. The total before insurance paid their part was around $68,000.

Since then, we had a change of situation and could no longer afford health care. Where we live right now the city has free health care for all children, or at least heavily subsidised dependong on family income. Only American children though. One of our kids is american. He spent a few days in hospital last year... it was free. My daughter who is British needed an ER trip a couple of months ago, for a kidney infection. We were in and out in 2 hours, but she had bloodwork and a CT scan done. Bill arrived for $17k, reduced to $2,500 after negotiating with billing. In America you negotiate what you can pay for medical bills. It is crazy.

Those are my two main negatives. I do love some other aspects. When we lived in a nicer area before, my kids had gifted programs and my daughter was in an accelerated class for very bright kids from across the area... 18 kids from about 50 schools in the district attended it and did things like 3 years of science in one term, high school classes in middle school. I loved that this was an option as I don't recall there being as much provision for us back in england. I also love the confidence my kids have being raised here. They do things like enter public speaking contests, robotics competitions and chess tournaments, debates etc. They run for class president and just generally seem to have a higher sense of their self worth than I ever had with my british childhood. They are raised to take leadership roles and encouraged to believe in themselves.

I also love how supportive everyone seems to be in my daughter's school towards LGBTQIA. This is not necessarily all American schools, but the ones she has been in, 5 so far, all seemed very supportive. We personally have never had issues of bullying in any of the schools they have attended, although the nicer area we used to live was better for it. When we first moved to Philly we had to send the two younger kids to a regular school local to our house because we had missed application deadlines for charter schools. It is rated 1/10. My youngest son was traumatised there... he came hone and cried for hours each night. He had to see a therapist. He said the kids were so awful they would throw desks and swear and scream at the teachers. The first week he was there he came hone and told us he k ew how to make a shank from a spork, some kid showed him. They only have plastic sporks in the cafeteria because otherwise the kids might stab each other. He was 7 at the time. It was scary going to parents evening there, and seeing screaming mothers cursing at the teachers because their kid had poor grades. We got our kids moved as soon as we could because they didn't learn anything tthat whole year... the school was not teaxhi ng at the same level they had been working on back in virginia.

So, apart from gun laws, crazy folk, horrible politics and health care, we love it here. We love the people and how warm they are, the community feel... we are taking a vacation with our next door neighbours for the second time this year. We love the weather and the interesting places we can go on car trips to. But do I wish we had raised them back in the UK if I could do it again? Maybe. I am not sure.

Your school experiences sound like mine, Bliminy and Britnyc1.

To your lists I can add broadcasting (a fully equipped tv and radio studio) sound engineering, lots and lots of theatre and musical theatre opportunities at all levels including writing and directing plays, spoken word, journalism and much more in that vein.

The academic catalogue runs to about a hundred pages.

All levels of aptitude are catered for and all sorts of interests and tracks, from automotive tech (huge fully equipped facility) to honours Latin. Scheduling isn't an issue because students of all ages can be put in class together.

Students can graduate HS here with a practical nursing qualification.

And there is a creche for the babies and small children of students and teachers and locals. The school is inclusive to the Nth degree.

Property taxes fund the public schools among other local services (parks/pools, libraries, meals on wheels, elder services, tree services, police, etc., etc) - they tend to be high in the two suburbs that the local high school caters to, and once children are finished with high school parents tend to sell up and move. Winters are a factor in the selling and moving too. Most people who move go to places where you don't have to shovel snow or bundle up like a polar bear for a trip to the supermarket.

KneelJustKneel the suburb where I live has an incredibly wide range of incomes and size of houses, plus many apartment buildings. It's quite densely populated (just over 11,000 per sq mile). When apartments are advertised for rent they are snapped up immediately. Older suburbs close to major cities in blue states tend to be similar to mine. There are also neighbourhoods in major cities where you can find a similar quality of life that is affordable.

While it is true that school shootings don't happen at night, Loopytiles, it is petty crime that has the most impact on the most people. Fear of common or garden muggings and break-ins and car theft, and the frustration of unchecked graffiti and vandalism and hooliganism is what really affects quality of life.

The risk of street level gun crime is statistically extremely low where I live. Fifteen minutes on foot to the east of me the situation is very different, but there are many neighbourhoods of that major city that have similarly incredibly low crime stats that are similar to those in my municipality. The risks of daily gun crime are heavily associated with zip code.

Most of these things are the same wherever you live, if you live in a safe neighborhood you are not going to experience a lot of crime, different areas may have higher crime rates. Yes shooting deaths are higher in the US but a huge proportion of those are shootings by a close family member or accidental shootings in the home. These are not things you really need to worry about if you don't own a gun and monitor who your kids are friends with if you live in a place where gun ownership may be a reality. I can honestly say guns aren't something I have ever worried about and I have also been fortunate to live in very safe areas where crime beyond car break ins and the occasional house break in is rare. My sister in suburban London has the same experiences.

Don’t underestimate the cost of health insurance. A few of my colleagues pay 30-40% of their income for family health insurance (price goes up if you have any pre-existing conditions; and sometimes even if you were born outside the US)

Completely incorrect. Firstly the price does not change for pre-existing conditions. That was part of the Affordable Care Act, that you cannot be penalized for pre-existing conditions. Also there is a cap on what you have to pay for your health insurance. We are at that cap, and if our salary doubled we would pay not more. Our health insurance plan is only about 10% of our income and we have good coverage. Also not true about having to pay more if you were born outside the US.

I loved the NHS when we lived in the UK, but I love the healthcare here more. No jumping through hoops to see a specialist and I have access to better medication than was ever offered to me in the UK.

Downside is Trump, but at worst we will only be stuck with him for another 4 years. Brexit is forever.

We moved back to the US. A great deal depends on where you live.

Schools: You may be able to choose in a bigger city. In the suburbs you generally go where you are zoned for. It has pluses and negatives, but in the end, it does mean that if you buy in a district with a good reputation you have no worries about admissions or not getting a place and your kids' friends will all live locally. Class sizes are typically smaller especially in primary gradesthink 20 instead of 30 for lower primary. There are some parts of the US that are known for huge classes (Los Angeles, Utah). The Northeast not so muchNYC schools still try to keep classes under 30. Teachers in the Northeast are well paid.

High schools here tend to be large by British standards (can be 400+ students per year) but large schools offer lots of choices--more languages, arts classes, lots of music, sport. American schools do emphasize doing a lot of activities and not just getting good grades.

Special education here is so much better that this alone will keep us from moving back, at least until my kids have finished school. The state schools here have a legal obligation to educate your children in their least restrictive environment. You may have to fight for things but my friends in the UK are seeing their kids excluded and being told their kids "can't cope" with school--here they can't do that, if a child is having a problem with school they have to find a solution!

university fees--yes, private universities will cost a bloody fortune but many American kids attend public ones. SUNY costs about $8K a year plus living expenses.

Healthcare: NHS in London was so overstretched. Here it all depends on your insurance. TBH I suspect that quality wise neither the US nor UK is tops. We do pay a stupid amount of money, but care is prompt and accessible--I don't fight to get a referral to a specialist and I can choose which hospitals I go to.

Cost of living: I honestly feel like London (we lived in Zone 4) was more expensive than suburban NYC. In the NYC suburbs property taxes are high (teachers and police officers make over $100K and someone's got to pay for it). Massachusetts is more reasonable. Outside of Manhattan/Brooklyn you get more for your money than the UK property wise. Utilities in NY are on the high side--we moved from New York to Pennsylvania and our utility costs went down quite a bit. There are a lot of variables here. For example, if you live in MA and don't have gas heating and good windows and insulation, your winter fuel costs will be extortionate. You'll also need to adjust for the cost of running air conditioning.

Quality of life: UK we had more holiday time. Big cities in the US can mean long hours, long commutes; long hours culture is a very big thing at many companies. We moved to a quieter area and while it has some downsides, the pace of life is much nicer.

Religion: It's a huge deal in parts of the country but in the Northeast not so much. School is very secular there down to winter concerts. I found cultural Christianity to be less prevalent than in Britain (this is not so true as you get more to the South or more rural areas--I certainly would not want to live in Alabama or Mississippi). FWIW we are not Christian.

Guns: It's an issue, but at the same time, look to see where shootings actually happen on a day to day basis. It says a lot more about poverty and racism than anything else.

I don't think either country is better necessarily--it depends on specifics.