Is South Africa as bad/good as people say?

[Thiswaytobermuda]

My work has suggested I might like to take up a permanent position in SA. It would be Johannesburg, and moving costs would be included. We wouldn't be at the top end of income but it would be reasonable, and we could afford some domestic help, although I'm not sure we could then cover private schools, unless they are cheap. We have children and I am sure they will slot fine into school generally but I am particularly worried about where the reception year DC would fit in as I understand school starts at 6 or 7 only. Do people really feel very unsafe driving around or being alone in a house at night (my partner would be travelling sometimes to keep his job going alongside mine)? Are services likely to go downhill in the next few years? (I have previously lived in Cape Town for a while and another African country but long ago and without children. Found some aspects like electricity black outs or no water for a day frustrating but manageable, but also never felt unsafe.) Will I spend all my time worrying about our safety and not enjoy what I think SA does offer families, like weather and outdoor pursuits, cheap food,and local travel?. What may I miss so much from the UK that I would regret the move?

I know of many SA who live in Europe. I'm afraid 'that' attitude - nasty names about the blacks and so on - marks a great many of them, especially the older generation (these are educated, middle-class etc). If you can't handle the talk on this thread, you'll have a shock when you land in SA. I'm sorry to say it but a society that relies and even eulogises hired hands that all happen to be one skin colour, and then socialises practically only with people of the other skin colour is...well, it must be highly destabilising for one's perspective on the world.

For a more optimistic addition to this thread, many family members of the people I met still live in SA and they do love it. They love the beautiful landscapes outside the city, the weather and so on. Not every white person wishes to leave SA despite 'lock-down' which tells you there must be something special about this place. Oh, and the good schools are very good - I'm told.

My husband is from Johannesburg, I didn’t feel safe when we visited. He loves it but I’m not sure I could live there.

He insisted I put my nice but not particularly flashy engagement ring in his parents safe for the duration of our stay.

Thanks for the comments. It would be useful to hear from parents there too. We have a lot of offices around the world and every place has its drawbacks and positives. I'm more inclined to SA than say China. I wish Cape Town was a possibility as the beaches would be great. Apparently my company hasn't thought of opening an office in Cornwall.

I would take China over SA any day.

So you're going. You're mad.

Curriculum at school is also very african - there is a big push to africanise education and standards are slipping

Anyway, OP, I personally would hate to live somewhere I felt unsafe. That would outweigh any swimming pool, private school etc.. But each to their own.

Some elderly relatives who'd lived there since the 60s passed away recently. They lived under virtual house arrest for the past 15+ years, just drinking all afternoon and never daring to go out as they felt so unsafe. Also have another elderly relative who still lives there. Not seen her for years but I remember being disgusted when I was a teenager and she told me she had a maid who lived in a shack in her garden. I wouldn't want to live in a country where that kind of thing is/has been recently acceptable.

I'm more inclined to SA than say China

Why? China’s urban areas are amazing, and the locals are (by and large) lovely! Travel opportunities are also wonderful, would take it over SA any day (can also roam around drunk safely ... )

I wouldn’t, especially with children, I worked with a unit now disbanded in J,burg. This was a long time ago but this also meant I had a little insight into what wasn’t public knowledge. Others I’m in contact with now live in New Zealand. My old elderly neighbours in the UK were from South Africa and moved due to the violence, friends were murdered and their land was taken, although others argue returned. It’s difficult and too uncertain.

Also agree the gap in poverty is shocking!

No. Never.

A friend went on her honeymoon and got robbed at gunpoint whilst waiting at traffic lights in a chauffeured car. Her husband was seriously assaulted and the 3 men hinted at raping her. The driver ran off as he knew he wasn't the target

I’ve no experience of either but I have a contact in China (uk citizen) who has lived there for over 25 years. She tells me that it’s becoming more and more unsafe for foreigners to the extent that they have been advised to have an emergency bag packed and ready to go at all times. She has had English friends go missing and so has made the decision to return to the uk with her Chinese husband and children.

I have so many South African friends, there are 10 SA mums in one of my kids classes alone. They all have a lower standard of living here than they did in SA, they miss the weather and they miss the domestic help but not one of them has any regrets, they all say that even with the increase in crime here nothing compares to having the freedom and relative feeling of safety for their children which comes from being here

@ILoveMaxiBondi
Where in China does your contact live?
I have lived in China for over 10 years and while it is becoming increasingly difficult for foreigners to obtain work visas, I don't think safety has changed in the time I have been here and I certainly don't feel unsafe here.

I think what PP meant by the cirriculum being ‘africanised’ is for example you’ll learn about the ancient civilisation in great zimbabwe as opposed to how kids learn about the romans in brittain.

When I was in primary school our history lessons covered the iltalian renaisance, invention of printing in Germarny, religious changes and its impact across europe (catholecism, protestantant church, Luther and Kant). You won’t find that today. Our high school history started with the Tudors and ended in 1970’s South Africa and a fairly warts and all history of apartheid, I had a very forward thinking history teacher though and she told us everything and to think critically. I think that is what PP meant by standards are slipping.

Many years ago, before I came to the UK, I did careers outreach work with a friend of mine who was a educational psycologist. I wanted to visit some of the remote clinics that sent us patients (i was working in a&e of the nearest big town) We went to very very remote schools near a place called Kosi Bay, paradise on earth but remote and underfunded. The maths teacher for the matric pupils that year was an ex student that had a B in maths a few years ago and on that basis he was given the job. All those kids wanted to be doctors and lawyers. We went to promote careers in agriculture/permaculture, tourism and trades like electicians and fitters and joiners. We had very little interest. Those kids were set up to fail, so sad.

We emigrated 15 years ago for various reasons, too long to go into here, but of my mum and her 5 brothers and sisters she has been the only one that has not been hijacked at gunpoint. I am grateful for every day I open my eyes in this country and am trying my best to integrate into my local community and raise my children accordingly. I really would not move there OP without a substantial packange from your company covering school fees , excellent private health insurance and a property in a gated community.

shanghai they’re in kunming. Like I say I’ve no experience of the place at all, I only know what I’ve been told and that she is worried enough to give up her life and career there.

She has had English friends go missing and so has made the decision to return to the uk

I find that a bit hard to believe, wouldn’t that become an international incident of sorts? That said, if you work in human rights or are a Ughyer then you could be in danger for sure. Not going to sugarcoat that aspect

if you work in human rights

Close to the mark. And there is a religious aspect (not Ughyer).

.....they aren’t missionaries, are they? It’s totally illegal and they deserve to get kicked out for not following the rules. Sorry, but this really gets my goat, all these fake English teachers who come to (try to) convert the locals.

Yes, I imagine Kunming is politically more sensitive particularly after the terrorist attack on the railway station in 2014. I live in the east of China (not Shanghai) and do not feel unsafe. However, having visited other areas of China, (including Xinjiang province) I appreciate that security and safety vary considerably between the east and west of the country.
Nevertheless, would still take China over SA.

My SA friend decided to move home. Landed in Joburg, got carjacked on the drive from the airport, turned around and came back to the UK.

To be fair that was 6/7 years ago, but i don't think things have improved.

I think that British people often struggle to understand what it’s like to live in a politically precarious country due to their privilege. My family fled China to the ussr where they endured further prosecution for their race and their economic background and connection. They then fled the ussr. My husband’s family were in a similar position having fled Uganda. I don’t think you appreciate just what it is like to loose everything you have built over and over again. It feels like the family has been fighting fires just trying to survive for the last hundred years. I have been fortunate in being born in a politically liberal and stable country but the transgeberational instability still affects me. I can’t even commit to buying a house. I hoard ‘portable’ property. I keep it next to our passports incase we need to make a run for it one day. It’s paranoia. I geberally keep it under control but it does affect my life in a big way. Moving abroad and marrying a forgeiner for example was partially motivated by the opportunity for dual citizenship. This is the legacy that genocide, ethnic cleansing, political slavery and never ending running from one place to another leaves. Even growing up in relative safety isn’t an antidote. If your children are raised with the spectre of being uprooted it won’t be a positive experience for them. I would recommend you stay in the UK and shelter your children. Living the way I do is not pleasant.

they aren’t missionaries, are they?

No not missionaries. Don’t want to be more specific but it’s not that.

@GregoryPeckingDuck well said.

I'm surprised that I haven't heard any positive responses. I would have expected some, I thought. We haven't decided yet, as I have a month to mull it over.

My friend lived in a compound, very security conscious, never walked anywhere and always drove, staying in the safer areas.

She had to stop for petrol though. And once, after she'd filled up and got back in the car, she was dragged out again by the hair with a gun pointed at her head, they jumped in the car and drove off. With her toddler daughter in her car seat in the back. They abandoned the car with her dd still in it a couple of hours later.

She started packing that night.