DH fired abroad - WWYD?

[decisionsdecisionsagain]

Hello wise people. I've NCed for this, as the details are very outing to anyone who knows me.

Earlier this year, we (me, DH and two small, barely school-aged children) moved to a European country for a great job opportunity for him. He speaks the language, I don't, and I gave up my job to come. (It's relevant that wild horses couldn't force me back into that job. I'm in the process of retraining, but my current earning potential is pretty much zero, regardless of which country we're in.)

8 months in, he was fired (a whole other thread in itself! He isn't totally blameless, but certainly no gross misconduct or anything like that - a combination of naivete on his part, toxic corporate politics, and an utter disregard for the disruption caused to us.) Financially, we are ok (no thanks to them!) but professionally and geographically, we are up shit creek.

Initially, we made the decision that he would search for another job here. The reasons for this are many, but here are some:

• our home is London, and Brexit is looming. It seems to me that the worst case scenario is that he is unemployed in London at Brexit. Theoretically, there are more opportunities here, although it's obviously a terrible time of year for job seeking.
• I actually quite like it here, although I didn't want to come, and so does DH.
• The children are at local schools, and picking up another language. This would disappear pretty much the moment we went home.
• We could get our house in London back from our tenants, but getting the children back into their old school would probably be difficult. This would be very disruptive for them, just 8 months after we made the first disruptive move.
• The children have found settling in quite hard, but they are just starting to make friends and feel more at home.

The thing is, we had always planned to go home eventually, and in 18 months or so, I will need to continue my retraining with hands-on experience, which would probably need to be in the UK. So now I am questioning our decision to stay - part of me thinks, why compound our error by staying here, when the original reason for coming (the job) has now disappeared? But the other part of me thinks, if we hold our nerve, this is a way better place to be than London at the moment.

I know you are not me, and I think I feel very differently in this situation to how many would feel, but I want to canvass some opinions. What do you think you'd do? We certainly did not think this move would be a mistake, but it has turned out to be, and my main fear is making another one. So I want to make sure I've considered all the angles and thought properly about what the best thing for everyone would be.

Thank you for reading, and sorry it's so long! I could talk about this shitty situation all day, as my poor friends know only too well!

He's taken it all out and sent it back to the company for them to sign, with only a confirmation of his dates of employment. It was weird, and he felt uneasy about it.

I'm fairly sure that only a confirmation of your DH's dates of employment would look pretty strange to any other potential German employer - it's really not the done thing here. If he can go back and get the 'proper' reference instead (after having it checked by an employment lawyer or at least an independent HR person!), he really should. Even German native speakers don't necessarily understand all the nuances and hidden little messages that you can often find in references. The fact that your DH requested just a confirmation of dates rather than a proper reference suggests he really should have got qualified outside advice.

If you generally like life in FFM and were planning to stay longer, are worried about uprooting the kids again after such a short time, etc, I think your DH should just look for a new job where you are now. Plenty of opportunities in FFM, no need to move to Munich or Berlin to find work. Although Munich and Berlin are both much more attractive cities otherwise (IMO).
If your DH can find a new, equally good job really nothing much has changed at all.

Berlin is so lovely. If you were to move to a different city in Germany, I'd suggest Berlin. We visit every year.
My DP is British and she tells me how British children are taught French but most don't remember much of what they are taught. So nearly everyone in her family only speaks one language and I find that a bit strange and very limited.
As a Danish person I was taught English from 4th grade, German from 7th grade, Spanish in High school. You could choose between Spanish or French.
I can't imagine only knowing one language. I think you're doing your kids a big favor by living in Germany.

Like most UK cities - even more so, London is dirty overcrowded and expensive. If you own a property in London you'd be well advised to sell it and use the money to invest in a different area of UK where you have a better choice of schools, better quality of life, and a lot more value for money property-wise, or alternatively use the funds to build your life in Germany if you believe it will offer you what you need longer term.

That's obviously a decision you'll work through with your DH. All the best with whatever choice you make.

We moved from the Home Counties to a much less densely populated area and it has made a massive difference to our QoL and a fraction of the outgoings. It completely took the pressure off having to suffer a job just for the paypacket.

If it helps any, I grew up in the Lake District. To this day I don't like big cities much. However from my perspective:

If you're having a shit time (school, bullying, stress, whatever) then having an environment around you that is calm, peaceful and beautiful is incredibly helpful.

If you're having a good time, then having lovely surroundings is just a bonus on top.

However if you live in bad surroundings (dirty, dangerous, antisocial places) then it magnifies the bad times, and brings down the good times. Who wants to go home from a birthday party and have to walk past beggars on the street, or overspilling dumpsters?

I'd rather bring up my kids somewhere they can see greenery out of their windows and breathe clean air than I would worry about their schools. I'd give freedom and privacy to them over convenience and a bigger choice of shops. I hated some parts of the Lake District (no social circle, parochial villages, lack of options for entertainment) but choosing between that and London would be an extremely easy choice for me to make when bringing up kids of my own.

One last thing - don't let half day school be a decider. If you do decide to work in Germany there will be a Hort, Kita or Mittagsbetreuung option available. You may have to seek it out and to qualify, but if you're both working or studying your children's Migrationshintergrund will make them high priority. Costs € obviously and ours closes at 4pm, but then you have homework supervision from native speakers, usually a cooked lunch option and enough hours to work or study.

blueskies yes, we have so far been unsuccessful in getting them into Hort, despite a letter from the organisation i’m volunteering with, but they’re both on the waiting list. Fingers crossed. Thank you.

Honestly - there are some really nasty and unnecessary comments from some people in response to your very reasonable questions.

Moving your family abroad is a huge (and expensive) undertaking and it's a lot of emotional stress moving from everything you know into unseen territory.

Also - fears about the UK economy and possible job market are very reasonable as no one seems to have any clue what is going on with Brexit still. But even the most modest predictions aren't showing growth or short-term benefits to anyone (except those rich enough to move assets, or invest elsewhere!) Its not the worst thing to stay on the outside and keep watching to see how things turn out before making a decision.

We moved our family to a European country last September in very similar circumstances to yours. I gave up my London job as my (European) husband had the chance to work in his home country. We also moved with 2 young children and rented out our house in the UK. I was initially massively against it, but with Brexit looming and a chance for the kids to experience another culture and a new language, it felt like the perfect time.

Initially the plan was a year, but we've extended this and are now having to seriously think about future options. Unfortunately my husband would need to change employers if we stay beyond next summer, and local salaries are not as good as those paid by his current firm (which is unlikely to extend his stay further). This is mitigated by me securing a new job, which will be a buffer if we do need to take a cut.

But still I don't know if I want to stay. Fundamentally it isn't my home, but I can't ignore how happy my husband and kids are. My children are now fluent in a new language and have local friends and are settled at school.

I desperately miss my house, my family and my friends. But acknowledge that the overall lifestyle, clean air, space and culture is really lovely to raise a family. I fear that I will never be truly happy anywhere now as I'll always be comparing either place. So while I'm (mostly) happy here, it isn't home. However, if I go back, am I selfishly depriving my family of a better option. It's a really bloody hard decision and definitely not to be taken lightly.

The one thing I would say is that 8 months is too soon to really know how you feel about a place. If you can hang on until next summer, it's a much more natural break to move back and start school if necessary. Also - it's worth looking at remote working opportunities for US/UK firms as it means you can transport your job if you do move back without the stress of finding something new.

Good luck - it's a really tough decision. Feel free to PM me if you did want a further chat on practicalities...!

I do wonder if the reference was genuinely meant - it might have been their way of sweetening the pill of the dismissal, and it may have been a mistake to reject it (employers can and likely will make a very negative inference from a reference with just dates of employment). 8 months in is an odd point for it to happen, given that probation is normally 6 months and after that point significant rights are accrued. Was it betriebs- or verhaltensbedingt? Or Aufhebungsvertrag? Presuming he was in banking (you obv don't have to say)?

I don't know FFM well, but Berlin is fantastic, albeit a fair bit pricier than the halcyon days when we first lived there.

You can do cheap German courses at the Volkshochschule - I might, IIWY, consider that, as having the language will potentially give you options re your training.

'it' above = the dismissal

If you initially planned to go home in 18 months anyway, then you might as well go home now.
On the other hand, if you've grown to like Germany more than you expected and you think you might want to stay longer, then do not go home now - if you stay until after Brexit day you will be able to retain your residency in Germany. If you go now it will be very difficult to come back after Brexit.
You need to be thinking about what you want to do long term - do you want to stay in Germany or not - I mean longer term than the 18 months you initially planned.
It seems like it all hangs on DH's employment - so he should be applying for suitable jobs, wherever they are and then see what comes up.

Depending on whether he has a degree and what his subject is, the German system is currently suffering from an acute shortage of teachers and most Länder have a programme for training 'Quereinsteiger' (those entering from another field) on the job. Might be worth looking into that if finding something in his industry proves tricky? His English native speaker status, again, will be a huge bonus.

I do wonder if the reference was genuinely meant - it might have been their way of sweetening the pill of the dismissal, and it may have been a mistake to reject it (employers can and likely will make a very negative inference from a reference with just dates of employment). 8 months in is an odd point for it to happen, given that probation is normally 6 months and after that point significant rights are accrued.

My thoughts exactly! They may very well have been on dodgy ground legally with the dismissal so gave a great reference to sweeten the pill / dissuade him from hiring an employment lawyer to go after them. Did he actually get fired or was there an Aufhebungsvertrag at the end? Agreeing an excellent reference would be standard practice for the latter.
Depending on how long ago this happened, it might still be worth getting legal advice, if only to get a nice settlement to cushion the financial impact.

We are going down the legal route (we happen to have insurance to cover it). It may have been a mistake to reject the reference, but it seemed like an additional kick in the teeth when the blow fell: tempers were running quite high! They did do something a bit dodgy with the contract, but it’s a big company, so i’m assuming they tied it up pretty tight. But as legal advice won’t cost us anything, it’s worth exploring.

But yes, there was a separation agreement, with a bolt-on clause assuming continued employment. (I wasn’t expecting so much Germsn employment-related expertise! More fool me!)

I think giving it until the end of the school year makes sense.

If Brexit is going to happen it will most likely have happened by then, and you will be able to tell by that point if the UK is going down the tubes or if the whole thing was a damp squib. There will also be less disruption for the kids if they start a new school at the beginning of the academic year rather than part way through.

And in the meantime your DH may get an amazing job that makes you decide to stay in Germany.

notdavidtennant that’s exactly what we discussed last night. Schools here finish a bit earlier than in the uk, so if we did that, we’d have time in July while schools were still open to try and get them back into their own school. And in the meantime, who knows what will happen!

novia thank you for your kindness. I could have written a lot of your post myself. I will PM you (but as I’ve gone on about retraining, i should have been studying this morning, and have done NOTHING!)

No-one has been nasty Novia or made unnecessary comments! A decision such as this is incredibly difficult and it would not be helpful to simply agree or gloss over things. OP needs to hear things she can disagree with or dismiss in order to help her clarify what does matter most.

OP - correct me if I'm wrong!

Just (if it helps) I can recount a friend's experience....

She and her DH moved to another area of the UK in August with their 3 DC, involving both giving up jobs, he got a new one she didn't (planned lifestyle change) and the kids at 2 schools moving to one school together.

They swiftly realised it was the wrong move.

By Christmas she moved back to the area into parents house with the DC into (any) local schools, and temped until she found permanent work. The kids went on the waiting list for the next spaces in the local school.

He saw his contract out to 1 year so it didn't look so bad on his CV and joined them back at the original location with a new job the following July.

All the kids were together in preferred schools by the September.

With her coming back to the location she got into the "queue" for the school places she wanted.

That was a long winded way of saying - you have tried something, it hasn't worked (unfortunate but things do fail for all sorts of reasons). You have stated you want to return in 18 months anyway. Do it now, as this is a suitable break point. Don't worry about Brexit, it's not as bad a the papers make out!.

No-one has been nasty Novia or made unnecessary comments!

I don't think so either. Go over to AIBU, now that's nasty!

I'd return to the UK in your shoes. Given you will (most likely) have to return in 18 months or so, it sounds like you are merely delaying the inevitable.

If Brexit has serious economic consequences for the UK we will most likely be in a severe recession in 18 months time - it will be much harder to find a job then that is now with mere "uncertainty".

That your daughters have found the move hard would push me towards leaving, not staying. It sounds like you are doubling down on a mistake so that you don't have to admit that the upheaval to your kids was ultimately unnecessary.

With the best will in the world I sincerely doubt 18 months will make any difference to your daughters' retention of German in the future, given how young they are now.

Returning to the UK would also give your husband the option of saying the move didn't suit the family as a reason for his quick departure.

It sounds like you are doubling down on a mistake so that you don't have to admit that the upheaval to your kids was ultimately unnecessary.
This is my major fear, RCohle, and something I need to think very hard about. But I equally think going home could be doubling down, really! The 18 month timeline I mentioned is not set in stone. If recession does hit at home, I feel like we’d be in a good place to ride it out here (assuming DH finds another job, of course.) Whereas if we went home now, we’d be stuck in that recession and would be very unlikely to be able to face moving again. Am I making any sense?

I’m a British citizen who lives and works overseas and wouldn’t be too keen on a move back to the UK at any point in the next few years. One reason is the kids are settled in school here but I have seriously consideeed moving back on the last year or so but the other reason I haven’t is indeed Brexit. Most companies I could potentially work for aren’t recruiting right now because they don’t know what the situation is going to be after March and honestly I am not comfortable buying property in the UK right now, so I know where the OP is coming from on that, absolutely.

My concern with riding out a possible recession overseas rather than moving back now is that it might "trap" you overseas for many years to come. Would you be happy with that? I would consider eg elderly relatives and the impact on your children's secondary and tertiary education.

In addition I certainly don't think the uncertainties of Brexit are mitigated for British citizens by living in Europe rather than the UK...

Post-Brexit what would your benefit, education and healthcare entitlement be in Germany? Could there be an impact on the portability of any professional qualifications? What is the impact on university fees for your kids?

RCohle if the kids end up going to university they'd be better off staying in Germany - by then they'll qualify for citizenship and university is free - no fees at all.