Talk to be about being an expat - the good the bad and the ugly

[needtomovesomewherewarmer]

DH has been asked by his company to go to Tokyo for a 2 year project. We have 3 children 6, 4 and 2. Life at home is settled dd (4) about to start reception. School is in a small village - 15 per year intake so huge contrast to urban living and international schools.

Job is great opportunity for DH and is likely to have good long term benefits. Financially we are doing ok but are stretched and have a necessary house build ahead of us if we stayed.

We live in a lovely rural area have a good network of families with children the same age who we see regularly. My mum is close by and helps out with childcare regularly.

So we have this decision to make. I've spent 4 weeks travelling Japan 7 years ago. Loved it. Have always had a strange affiliation to all things Japanese, since being at uni.

I thought this opportunity would provide a chance for us to get some savings behind us, for me to have more quality time with the children (after school and holidays) and experience urban living and expose children to such diversity.

I like to have friends especially where we can spend time together as families but I'm also a bit of a loner so happy in my own company. However, the one thing that I really hate about life around me here in the UK is the never ending 'keeping up with the jones' - whose got what house, car, activities, outings, depicting that ever so perfect life. Just watching it around me makes me dizzy and I long for a slower paced family life. (The irony that I’m proposing urban living in Tokyo is not lost on me!)

I stumbled upon the thread on here about struggling by being an expat and it’s got me thinking. I never even considered that the competitive nature might get even worse as an expat. Or that there would be such a strong consistent experience of loneliness being an expat.

So expats, tell me about the good and the bad ? Do you think trying to live outside an expat community / local schooling would be better? I don't speak any language other than English. I've considered homeschooling here in the U.K. so would consider that, but thought that would just heighten isolation.

I would really appreciate any honest comments both good and bad. We are not yet committed but need to make a decision once an package offer is put together.

It’s such a big decision.

We have done two overseas placements, one in Latin America and one in USA. They were both in cities. The first one was in many ways the hardest, we spoke no Spanish when we arrived although we all learned at different paces and dc became fluent. It was also the easiest in other ways, there were so few expats you spoke to anyone who spoke English. The US was easier to settle in but harder to find close friends.
Being lonely at times has been an issue at times in both countries, being different all the time can get tiring. Giving up work and having to build a good life without it is something I find hard but not impossible.
DC miss friends and family but gain in outlook. That's enough of an essay for now!

I have found that anything we do out of the norm is excused because we aren't local so there is no keeping up with anyone else.
I also wouldn't home school, everyone can meet friends via school, we have done a local school in first country and international school in US.

I can't begin to explain!

The lows can be so low and you miss friends and family. I'd kill for a UK summer right now, or seasons. But I have so much respect for the wives (and it is for the most part) now. You arrive one weekend and on the Monday morning your partner gets up and goes to work same old same old but you..... you make your life again: find friends, establish a routine, where do you shop? Go to the doctors? Get your haircut.... it's a new world and you have to make it happen - it doesn't come you. It's like first day of school again - as a grown up. I've literally ended up asking people to be my friend (and I am not the only one o know - I met someone who stopped me in the street and said do you live here can I be your friend - and I didn't bat an eyelid because I have been there too and admired her approach).

It's hard to lose your identify and become someone's wife or mum. I struggled so badly with being known as X's wife. I realized how much of my self-worth was tied up in my professional identity: but the highs....

Well I live an infinitely more interesting life than I would do in the UK, the places I have visited have been amazing, I think I have a different view of the world. I have made some amazing friends (and now accept I don't see or speak to some of them for years and they are 5000 miles away or more but when we catch up boy do we catch up) and have seen and done so much more than I would have done if I had stayed at home. When I lay on my death-bed I will think: I really gave life a shot!

It can be tough, I've really struggled; at times I wondered if my marriage would survive it - but I would do it all again? In a heartbeat and I have HATED some places I have lived. It's not for everyone but it's for me.

Tokyo can be great as an expat location - I spent 9 years there - my DW a little less. Most of my colleagues said their children enjoyed their time there and the international schools (after some initial understandable reticence).

Downsides:
Summer is brutal (heat/humidity) - this year particularly - many expat families leave for the summer holiday leaving a bachelor community.
It's hard to get to any depth in the Japanese native community. If you can reconcile with floating on the surface you will be fine.
It is definitely tough(er) for trailing spouses. Slightly easier for those with children as schools provide accurate ready made community. Harder for those without.
Earthquake risk is real - troubled UK family and friends more. I was there for the March 2011 quake and tsunami. Even though Tokyo was not directly affected the aftermath and the nuclear plant were disconcerting.

I would go for it if the career opportunity is right for DH, his employer are providing the right sort of expat package (housing allowance, home leave flights, cost of living, medical, car etc.) and you think you can cope with the downsides.

I would strongly recommend not considering trying the local integration route - the school system is brutal, still very rote-learning based, and does not deal with children who do not fit in very well (there's a Japanese saying that translates as, "the nail that stands up gets hammered down"; it is highly appropriate).

Feel free to DM me if I can help further.

We live just above Japan, on a Russian island, and have been here for coming up 4 years. In New Zealand I have lovely lovely friends but have never needed lots of people about and enjoy my own company. The work was a great opportunity for my husband, and the school here is excellent, plus the monetary rewards are fabulous, being a hardship posting. We have a house in NZ but could not afford renovations so it was an opportunity to get ahead. The first year here was abysmal - getting used to snow suits, my son went from NZ free range kindy to school and he bawled every morning for 6 months when I took him to school, trying to walk the dog without falling over, and not having my 3 close friends to sit and have coffee and a gripe with.
The good thing is having the kiddies - taking them to school you are instantly part of that community. I met mums there who became good friends from a range of countries, and now we have another kiwi family here which is lovely for the kids. We live in a camp with all the facilities and really only need to go out to grocery shop which is an adventure in itself! Another thing we have here is Outpost, which is a Shell network (although we are not Shell, they are still wonderful). Tokyo must have similar expat networks, and while the words "coffee morning" make me shudder there will be someone else hiding in the corner looking uncomfortable. Also the expat community is a small world, so you never know who you will stumble across that you have friends in common with. I'm now doing a degree distance learning from a uni in NZ which keeps my mind active and is a great excuse to get out of coffee mornings.
We went to Amsterdam for 4 years pre-kiddies and it was much lonelier because without the kids, and not being terribly sociable, it was more difficult to meet people. Luckily our neighbours were American with kids at the international school, so we got the scoop on where stuff is through them.
The hardest things for me have been trying to find where to buy things, although Japan is much more cosmopolitan and the food is lovely, how to make myself understood without dragging a translator along, healthcare (the only clinic our insurer let us use costs $250 just to walk through the door), and feeling isolated and a long way from my Mum and friends. Some days everything just feels hard - filling the car with petrol, the post office, the lack of fresh veges…
My advice: find a good translator that you trust for buying a car, taking to the doctors etc; there will be other families in the same boat as you who will take you under their wing so don't be afraid to ask for help; when the kids are in school get to know your neighbourhood and what's available nearby; and my biggest comfort was renting our house in NZ to friends so that was a huge load off my mind.
The upside for you is that the Japanese are on the whole very polite, friendly and helpful. The Russian default face is hard and we felt really unwelcome, and I smile most of the time so they think I'm a nutcase.
Anyhoo, on the whole it's a positive experience and the kids love it. We miss home but it's not a million miles away, and we can afford to go home when we need to. It's a great opportunity to see different countries around us too. Investigate what will be available to your husband - travel home, school fees, housing etc. Not having to worry about that stuff makes a difference.
Good luck!

We have posted overseas for the whole of dcs lives.

They are open minded, tolerant, global thinking, flexible and have a good understanding of many diffferbg cultures. They have also learnt 4 languages along the way.

The benefits have outweighed the disadvantages.

It's not for everyone but we are enjoying our expat life.

The pros would be

• increased cultural awareness for the children (my youngest is fluent in the local language, as well as English)
• meeting people from everywhere. Other expats are in the same boat - away from friends and family - so I found on the whole they are a lot more welcoming and friendly. Lots of coffees arranged with strangers (friends of friends/ over FB etc), some of which turned into life Long friendships
• opportunities for travel
• opportunities for saving

The biggest con is a lack of belonging/a home. DH and I are a different nationality to our kids and then are raising them in a third country. I'm concerned they won't have a strong national identity when they grow up and what (if any) effect that will have. Also, the risk that they'll keep wandering (as we have!) and my children will be spread all over the world. Would be both wonderful and awful! Also of course the kids missing their grandparents and wider family and friends - I feel that is a huge thing to give up.

Fight for a VERY good package. You are uprooting your lives and your children's lives. It sounds shallow, but it's way more fun exploring a new country if you have a good lifestyle and money to travel. School, medical, annual flights home, housing, help and car.

We turned down an offer in Tokyo because one of our DC has SN and I thought it would all be too hard for him. But I have since had many expat friends say Japan was their favourite posting. It sounds wonderful, I'm hoping to get there soon for a holiday. Best of luck.

I've been an immigrant since '89. First Thailand, then Italy. First time as a trialing spouse of a husband who wanted to go home. Second time I came here by myself.

The loneliest I have ever been is when I got sucked into the "expat community". FWIW my entirely personal observations were...

• a much reduced pool of friend contenders where the pool was limited by shared language/culture meant I was compromising way too far in terms of what genuinely made me and somebody else compatible for friendship/warm acquaintanceship. I ended up in some truely unhealthy friendships with people I actually didn't like that much, which did nothing but make coping as an "alien" worse.

-I found expat bubbles had a magnifying effect on the aspects of the host culture/status quo that I found more difficult. My whining combined with their whining turned a grumble into a roar. And that sort spiralled me into being far more negative than I otherwise would have been. It actively reduced my chances of managing the less good stuff and enjoying the stuff that was just different.

I became a lot happier when I took myself out of the bubble. Sometimes that has required some degree of capacity in the host country's language. But mostly there were enough people who spoke good enough English while my language ability caught up.

I get choose friends based of qualities I like and things (other than language/culture) we have in common. So I like my friends, cos I was able to choose from a much bigger, less restricted pool.

My son is half Italian born and bred. I worked in the Italian state system which primed me to be aware of the less visible nature of issues when he started to have them. He was homeschooled from 3° year primary. Athens went to british online school for secondary. He will be attending an online British university next academic year. It was OK. Really fucking hard work to keep him bonded to his peers socially despite having spent all 3 years of pre-school and the first two years of primary with them. I think I worked ten times hard about the social life issue than I did the academics. I would say we achieved a partial success there. He is still a lot shyer socially than I think he naturally would have been if he had gone to school. On the other ha d I think he would have done what 75% of his friends did and dropped out at 16 if we hadn't HSed. He was that bad a fit with the Italian system and specific issues that were a main feature of our local system until a recent retirement.

I have no regrets about leaving the Motherland, well not big ones. It wasn't meant to be forever. And I get wobbles about the fact I'll be going home for good in a ziplock bag. But overall, I think even if ,y stay had been short rather than this long it has given me positive experiences and insights I wouldn't have had back home. So it's all good.

The one fly in the ointment that I do think caused a problem that I could not resolve is how unsuited I was to Thailand. Specifically I could not get used to the reduced status and rigid gender roles of females compared to what I used to. My ex husband, and many British men who came over with their spouses, seemed to adapt to and enjoy their increased status at females' expense a bit too readily for my liking. Ultimately it played not so significant part in the hastened demise of my marriage (which would have died anyway, we were that unsuited) and contributed to my decision to leave when I did. But I wouldn't time travel back and not go there. The experience is part of what made me who I am and what I value. And I'm ok with that outcome.

It's often hard to predict the challenges/benefits before you arrive as they will be very particular to your tastes, interests and expectations. If you like 'all things Japan' you're in a good mindset to make the most of it.

You can always leave if you don't like it (contracts of 2 - 3 years fly by) and you will have an experience which expands your mind and cultural understanding in a way mere holidays do not.

I am back in the UK after 3 years abroad and there are good things about it that you can't have abroad, but on balance, I prefer expat living! Do recommend making as many local friends as possible - the expat bubble can be pretty superficial.

farangatang

Love your username

We did five years in mainland Europe, it was defintely a good decision. Our daughter was older, teens so it helped her enormously and looks great on her cv now, in addition you can rent out your home and save the money, I assume also there will be financial benefits ie a package if he moves.

It's only two years, it will go past in a flash, the kids are young enough.

Go for it, it's a fab opportunity.

Honestly I’d go - 2 years is nothing, just an adventure amount of time really, so enough time to get a feel for a culture, broaden DC horizons, travel a little then come home

One of the real pros for me about living overseas is that anything I do that is a bit unusual or odd is excused as "a foreign thing"

So I have found I care less about what to get DC's school friends for birthday gifts, or whether it's OK to wear sandals to a particular event, or whatever, because if I get it "wrong" I have more of a pass. (It helps that I am white English - I didn't really understand privilege in action until I lived overseas)

Thanks Cesira.

and I understand about the 'white privilege' thing, Oleanna. I was so uncomfortable hiring a maid at first, until I understood that 'farang' who DON'T employ local staff to work in their home are considered very strange and taking advantage of being expats (go figure!) [it was along the lines of 'who do they think they are coming to our country and not providing anyone with work?]

I felt more comfortable about it by paying above the average wage and providing holiday pay etc... which most in those sort of roles don't get from their local employers.

farang I had exactly the same conversations re hiring staff, I wasn't going to and locals explained that hiring as many people as possible was part of the social contract between the well off and poorer people in the country. It can be hard to adjust to losing them though!

Such really honest accounts and advice thank you everyone. I think in the main most of the negatives pointed out, we have given thought to. Although I’d not considered having to drag a translator about with me Russki

cerisa that is a concern I have about an expat bubble. I am not terribly mainstream at home as it is, which often doesn’t do me any favours in the school yard etc, I generally don’t mind, but inevitably my close circle of friends is small. Whilst I’m ok (ish) with the idea of giving up work to go, the driver behind that is that life would be less hectic than with 2 working parents and I’d get to be around more after school and during holidays. I’m already part time but work rather long days. I’m not a coffee morning/yoga person at all...and if I were to do those things I’d opt every time to do them on my own in peace!

I want to expose my children to the wider world, show them that there is more to life than their little bubble, but hope that I wouldn’t be just exposing them to a different kind, more privileged and insular bubble.

By your accounts though, this doesn’t seem to be the case. I am so desperate to get away from a life that is so concerned with who has what and if you are leading that ever so perfect life.

My other worry is the children, uprooting them away from friends, family, things they love and routine. How have you find Children’s adaptability at that age?

You are so right though, 2 years is a flash in the pan and seeing it as an adventure is a great way to look at it. We’ve actually even considered doing a family gap year so, whilst not the same, I suppose we were willing to put life at home on hold for something bigger.

My husband seems to think is company has good international assignment packages. Accommodation assistance, schools, health included etc. Assume some flights home might be included, not considered ‘home leave’ mac is that additional annual leave? It’s really quite hard to know what would constitute a good package. We want to be able to go, live life there with more disposable income than here so we can enjoy life there, have enough left to top up our home mortgage as I doubt rent will cover it, save a decent amount and visit home at least once a year. What kind of housing assistance is common as looking at houses in nearby suburbs looks expensive!

mac Thank you fit the offer to Pm you. I may pull a few questions together thanks x

Needtomove - home leave is just another way of saying flights home - not more annual leave, unfortunately. However, Japan does have more public holidays than the UK, which helps - albeit 25 December is a normal workday there.

For a 'good' international package I would expect you to be getting some form of 'cost of living allowance' (particularly with the £ as weak as it is, Tokyo is expensive even compared to London).

Regarding housing a not unusual formula is to look at how much more it would cost to rent compared to your existing home (rent/interest cost of mortgage) and then top that up to get to Japan price levels. Central expat -friendly areas in Tokyo are expensive. With three children that could easily be JPY 1m a month or possibly even more as an 'housing allowance'.

OP, give this gift to your kids! They can only benefit from having had an international living experience, and there are some super (but expensive) international schools in Tokyo. Ensure that whatever package you get includes the fees (or at least a substantial contribution). Unless of course your other half is a teacher and then you get the education for two kids for free (at most).

We live in the USA, been here for 10 years. We intended to come for 2 years but the time just flew by and we're still here...Your situation is different but here are my pros and cons:

Pros:

• my children are genuinely bicultural and open minded

-the country is so beautiful

• I've had different and even better career opportunities than at home. I wasn't expecting that, and ended up changing career direction completely when we moved here

-travel to other parts of the world that wouldn't be practical from the UK -realizing who my real friends are. My British friends who are real friends have really stuck with me. We're in touch often through Facebook messenger and make the effort to visit each other.

Cons:

• being away from older parents and grandparents. I have missed 6 funerals since we've been here - joint decision by my family - they said they'd rather I spent money and time on visiting the living than coming over for funerals. But they are still very hard to miss

-constantly feeling like a foreigner. Even though I'm not a visible minority here, I still have to answer the same questions multiple times a week - where are you from? Why are you here? Isn't the Usa so much better than the UK??? After 10 years, it's getting old.

I think you are very wise to be considering this so carefully. Although living abroad has not always been easy, I would still recommend it, especially for a short time frame. The longer you stay, the harder it is to go back home.

Oh, actually, one other con - even though we do get to travel to new places, we spend most of our time and money going back to the UK to see family. A holiday in the suburban midlands isn't exactly exotic, but we do it every year! don't think that would be as much of an issue if you're there for just 2 years though.

WalkUp I agree with spending your time money and holiday on visiting the U.K. and a thing I struggle with in the US is it’s so far from any other foreign country

But is still say for a 2yr posting I would prob just use the time and money to explore Asia from japan and prob not bother going home and I say this as someone who came to the US with 3/4yrs in mind, we’ve been here 6 and are def staying another 2

My children have also been expats their entire lives and agree with the advantages posted upthread.
Re package - I am in China and our package includes the following. (Not all this may be relevant to you but it gives you a starting point)
Company pays for the following
Accommodation
Relocation. - air and sea freight and storage costs back in Europe
All utilities
Driver and car
Flights home per year - we get this as a lump sum so can choose where to go
International school fees
Medical, dental and medical evacuation
Tax advice and completion of tax returns
All visas and paperwork associated with relocation
Language lessons
Flights covered for emergency back in home country - eg death or illness of parent
Holiday entitlement is same as home county, but with Chinese bank holidays.

In terms of packages we get our rent, utilities, air tickets for visits home, moving costs, relocation agent, health insurance, school fees and difference in cost of living covered.
Dc are adaptable but I think I was oversold this as an idea for the first move and was surprised at how hard they found the first six months, but once they had learned the language they were good to go. Going home was much harder than going out. Second time around everyone knew what they were doing and it was much smoother, I was pleasantly surprised.
In terms of fitting in moving like this isn't for everyone so I would think you could find like minded people given you manage this in UK.

I moved abroad on a 2 year contract and am about to head back for my 4th year! 2 years will whizz past.
There will be expat Facebook and WhatsApp groups, also global organisations like 'Internations' where you can find people with similar mindsets and interests rather than just the small pool you may meet through school or work. People are coming and going all the time and I've found people are much more open to new friendships because of this transience.
I love my UK friends but since I'd been living in a typical rural area for a long time I could not really call them diverse. Since moving I have made friends from all over the world, and my acquaintances include CEOs of banks and ambassadors (yes really; and no, no ferrero richer have been forthcoming). So you may find that the experience of being part of a global community is as much of an interesting experience and an education for you as it is for your children.
I've also started to learn the local language, which although being hellishly difficult has been both stimulating and a way to understand the culture.
I'd bloody love a chance to go to Tokyo!