Bavaria

[Goosegettingfat]

Anyone there/ has lived there?

Looks like I'm moving there with dh and dd1 (6), dd2 (5), ds (8m) and ddog

No idea where to start!

Goose that's a slightly trickier question as we were already here and in the system. As the kids were registered as living here we got a letter inviting us to go and talk about them starting the local staatlich Kindergarten about six months before they turned 3. Then children already in state Kindergarten get personal letters distributed by Kindergarten to parents about starting school. I took the letters into the school office as I would have if I'd been enrolling him and he just stayed at Kindergarten. It's obviously less hassle when already here and in the system.

I'm afraid I don't totally know how to do it from abroad - I tend to do things face to face as it seems to have better results. Will you be coming over to house hunt? The other thing is state Kindergarten and schools might not be very helpful until you have a firm address, as they only deal with children in catchment.

In answer to your other question my late mil found our rental advertised in the paper - you're right it's hard to find a good deal online. Which side of Munich will you be?

*that's how things work in our Gemeinde - cities including Munich seem very different.

Yes coming over to househunt/ school hunt next week :)

Catchment... how does that work over there? Is there any choice of kindergartens/ schools? Or do just go to your nearest one?

Apologies for the barrage of questions today, and thanks again for answering them!!!

We will be east of Nürnberg, north east of Munich

Hi Goose. I wrote you a long reply yesterday which the computer ate so will try again now.

Catchment: your Rathaus will be able to tell you which school you should go to. If it's a small town there may only be one. If you want to attend a different state school, you can apply to that school with a 'Gastantrag' and they may or may not accept you. In my small town there is one primary school but there is also a Montessori. It is kind of semi-private, but the fees you pay are in no way like private school fees in the UK - it's just a couple of hundred Euros per month.

If there is one near you, it may be a good option for your DD. In my area we have quite a lot of expats and several of them have put their kids into the Montessori as a less stressful / less test-filled school experience, especially if they were not planning on staying forever. I'm not sure if you're staying in Germany for the longhaul?

To reply to your other stuff, I think you will struggle to defer your DD if she is seven this August. I tried to defer my DS as he was not six when he had to start school. But because school and Kindy said he was fit for school, they were able to overrule me.

We live in the arse end of Bavaria but my kids' school has had to get to grips with a huge amount of immigrants in the last couple of year (my kids' primary school has 45% of kids with a 'migration background' and that statistic does not include my kids!). I have seen foreign kids join my DDs class in year three and by year four, they were doing all the same work as the rest of the kids.

One boy in my DDs class was from Afghanistan, had an illiterate father and both parents spoke crap German and he is now in year five, holding his own in mainstream school. What I am trying to say is, this is a child with a far from ideal home set-up for supporting language learning and homework in German and he is coping rather admirably. I think your set-up will be very more advantageous for your DD and the fact that you speak some German is excellent.

I think all schools now offer 'Ganztagesklassen' - all day schools. This means school til 15:30 Mon-Thurs and short day on Friday, warm lunch at school and no homework except at the weekend. If you were coming to my DS' school, they would try to push this system on you as in our school, they struggle to fill the class. It wasn't always this, but it has become a bit of a non-German speaking melting pot. It's great for the parents of these children that they are relieved of homework during the week but I think it is hard for the children to really immerse themselves in well-spoken German. My DD was in the all-day class but I decided against it for my DS as I wanted him to hear more native-spoken German.

Our primary school finishes at different times each day, which takes some getting used to.

Your Rathaus will also be able to tell you what nurseries there are and you can approach them directly to see if they have a space. In my area the nurseries are all church-run, the majority of them Catholic. This may be the case where you are going (but they are more likely to be protestant up there!) Oh and you will love the nursery fees - you will only pay about 100 Euros a month for nursery .

For property, have you tried immobilienscout24.de? You will find rental property there as well as houses for sale. Or find out the name of the local paper. Our paper has property on a Saturday. You should be able to find it online too.

Hello, a lot of your questions have been answered already, but as our experience is recent and a similar situation to yours I thought I would add one other aspect into the mix re doing a year of kindergarten instead of school. We moved to Munich in July last year, and my eldest started Grundschule aged 6. She is now 7. She had no German. Four months on she is now understanding everything, and her teacher told me she is speaking out in class and with her friends. One issue that we had is that she was bored in school at the start- especially in maths, and the only thing that kept her going was the fact that she is using this year to learn German before the work gets tricky in the zweite Klasse. If she had spent a year in Kindergarten learning German, and then started school with fluency, I don't know how we would have got through the boredom. ("What did you do today? Today we did number 2. Yesterday we did number 1." and homework was sheets of paper writing out number 1, number 2, letter A etc.) They have moved on at a cracking pace and I would say that the maths now is ahead of the level that she was at last year at the end of Y1 in the UK so the boredom is no longer an issue, and the language learning is happening so not an issue either. We are in a city school, and across 4 classes of approx. 20 kids in each there are 6 children who started with no German, and they all have extra German lessons together, twice a week.

Calab's experience is totally different to mine in many ways, despite both being in rural areas of Bavaria! I guess that shows that there is enormous variety even within a state.

Not all schools offer a ganzen Tag class or have a refugee or foreign population. Our primary only has 84 children, one form entry, no ganzen Tag class but a Mittagsbetreuung which is an after school club. Ours is lovely, but it isn't lessons. It's supervision while they eat lunch, do homework and play. They do make them go outside for at least an hour, and the school has a beautiful garden. Dc3 plays loads of card and board games and with Lego and Playmobil, and dc2 and his mates play football the entire time he's there aside from eating and homework. Mittagsbetreuung costs 175€ per child per month including lunch or about 90€ per month if you send a packed lunch, and closes at 16:00. It's slightly cheaper if you only want care til 14:00. Both my primary age kids go, which is expensive, but the little one finishes at 11:20 and the big one at 13:00 so if they didn't the little one (6) would be letting himself in and staying home alone til the eldest gets home from Realschule at 13:00. So he'll go to Mittagsbetreuung until the end of year 3 at least.

The local Mittleschule is ganzen Tag for all children in years 5-9 but is also one form entry and there's no choice about ganzen Tag. The local Realschule and Gymnasium have 07:30-12:30 school days. Both only have optional afternoon classes and clubs and nowhere on site for lunch (the kids just walk into town - DD used to do music in the afternoon and was just free to do what she wanted from 12:30 - 13:45. She and her friends usually went for a kebab (different to the kebabs you get in England) or shared a pizza or slightly bizzarly walked to Aldi. Sometimes they went shopping or for ice-cream. That was in year 5-6, DD was ten and eleven. It was fine though, she enjoyed it, I do think ten year olds can be really quite self sufficient :o

The Realschule and gymnasium do run a joint "öffentlicheganzentagsschule" - that opens at 13:45 (so again kids are free to go into town over lunch) and then provides homework help, chill out rooms and sports activities and some clubs for children who's parents don't want them home alone for hours and hours. DD went for a bit in year 5 but said it was too noisy, so from year 6 she just came home on the bus and let herself in. The öffentlicheganzentagsschule is free, but it's not full day school, just a holding pen really.

When my eldest started at our primary in 2011 she was the only child who spoke another language. There were other children with one polish or Italian parent but none of the children spoke the parents' language. Now there are more eastern European children - Czech and Bulgarian and polish and Russian, as well as a couple of kids with one French parent. We have 12 young men refugees living in the village where the primary school is, who are smiley and quiet and very polite, but no refugees in the primary. There are some older teen refugees who take DD's school bus but go to the nearby Beruf schule - None at the Realschule. There are lots of Italian and eastern European children at the Realschule though (it's in a different, bigger town - there are 1500 kids at the school). DD is in the language stream so her class attracts many of the bilingual and trilingual kids, who tend to be good at languages, and about 1/3 of her class have one foreign parent. Mostly European and Russian and a couple Turkish though I think.

In our Gemeinde there are two kindergartens and two primary schools. There is some wiggle room on Kindergarten (they have slightly different opening hours) but none at all on school - you go to the one you're allocated to. It causes angst every year because they try not to have one primary with a class of 17 and the other with 28 obviously, so the little hamlets roughly equal distance from both never know which school they'll get, and sometimes siblings in different years are at different schools. I've never heard of anyone getting into anything but the school they were assigned here though.

There are tons of private and parent initiative options for kindergarten as well as the state one though, and for those obviously you have complete free choice if they have places. Forest kindergartens are the most popular non state option.

There is a Montessori primary and also an Eltern Initiative "Aktive" Grund and Mittleschule (very alternative, unstructured, mixed age classes, attracts parents who would homeschool if it were legal but also children who are struggling at state school for a range of reasons from being unusually able to undiagnosed special needs to emotional and behavioural problems - I taught there before dc3 was born) near us, I vaguely considered Montisorri when dc1 was at Kindergarten, but everything I read and a lot of people I talked to said that it is very difficult for children to adjust to state from Montessori in year 5, and they won't be allowed into Realschule or gymnasium, only Mittleschule from a Montessori (unless you go to a private secondary). What is apparently better is finding a Montessori school which goes through to year 9 - apparently children who swap at that point do exceptionally well... It's a very long commute to the nearest one for us though, so not an option.

Evelyn is right I think that the change from the Montessori system to the mainstream school system is tough as the systems are just so different. From our Monti, some children do change into mainstream after year 4 but they have to sit the 'Aufnahmeprüfung' (entrance exam) which is normally only sat by primary 4s whose grades are not quite good enough for direct entry to the Gymnasium or Realschule (the top two streams for high school). I know children who have managed it but they are often tutored because the exam wording is unlike anything they will have done at the Montessori.

Evelyn your Mittagsbetreuung is expensive! Ours is free and you only pay if you want your child to go to Hort (After school club) which is also open in the holidays. I am getting the impression our local authority is quite generous!

Sorry Goose we're now bamboozling you with info aren't we?

Not overwhelming- I'm really grateful!

Just someone please tell me...
www.pfarrgemeinde-luhe.de/index.php/kinderhaus/gebuehren

Here are they saying that if your child attends this kindergarten, say 4-5 hrs per day, the fee is 61 euros per day????? This surely can't be right. Per week?

Love the look of this village/kindergarten and found a beautiful looking Haus there

I am pretty sure (it doesn't say specifically) that that is your price per month as this is how the monthly fees were listed in my KG.

The basic fee for 4-5 hours per day is 61 Euros. Plus 5 Euros for drinks / games and toys per month. So total 66 Euros per month.

The fees vary by town depending on how well off your local authority is, so that place is cheaper than my town but more expensive than a neighbouring (wealthy) town which covers everyone's nursery fees completely for them .

Good luck for your house viewing mission next week!

The text below the table with the Kindergarten fees tells you when your child reaches pre-school year, their fees are met up to the tune of 100 Euros. (This was introduced to get disadvantaged children into the nursery system before starting school).

Yep it doesn't actually say! But I would assume per month, otherwise it's astronomical by German standards. Ours is similar until Vorschule (per Monat) but Vorschule is totally free (because of a historical problem with a high percentage of farmers not sending kids to kindergarten at all being perceived as a problem in the first year of school).

So just to update. Have had very successful couple of days here (Bavaria, Schnaittenbach to be exact) house and school hunting. Hugely impressed with the kgs and schools we've seen- so welcoming and so much space! Also the Schule and kg are both in agreement that dd1 will stay in kg until sept. Hurrah!

Just had a meeting with a private house owner who wishes to rent out their house- she decided to put the rent up 50 euros per month from what she had originally said (to dh's company). Presumably just because we're brits!!

Anyway, otherwise a lovely experience so far!

Sounds really positive Goose (apart from the 50€)... On the up side we're still paying the same rent as when we moved in in 2007, so it may never increase - German landlords mostly like tenants to stay put...

Great news Goose and result that DD gets to stay in KG til summer. Enjoy the rest of your visit!

Hi, sorry to highjack your thread Goose, I am actually moving to Ammersee (35 mins south west of Munich) from the uk on Wednesday. I have a nearly 2 year old and a 4 month old. Would be pretty nervous if I wasn’t so busy looking after them!
Think I’m probably a bit far from where you are but as my German is nonexistent at the moment it would be useful to have English speaking friends going through the same thing.

if there are any other English speaking families around I would love to get in contact.

Sorry again for the highjack!

Phantom- no apology necessary! Good luck with the move! I'll be a couple of hours from you but we can share experiences on here!

Today's (banal) questions: any tips on how/ where to find a cleaner if you live in a village?

Is hanging washing outside frowned upon?

Thanks!

Ooh and, more questions... would anyone particularly recommend (or not) a mobile phone network provider, where to insure car, where to buy a washing machine.

Apologies for the million and one questions, I know I sound a bit useless!

Hi Goose,

Cleaner ask your neighbours if they can recommend one. Here it operates word of mouth. Or look on Ebay-Kleinanzeigen (small ads) either for one advertising or you advertise for one there. Or put an ad in your local paper for a 'Haushaltshilfe', how many hours per week and have them contact you.

Washing hanging out I do it bigtime because I love the smell of line-dried washing, the weather is too good not to use all this sunshine and because tumbledriers make my clothes go wonky. And some of my neighbours do and others definitely don't - never so much as a garment flapping in the garden. I worry they must think I am scandalous with big flapping knickers airing on my whirlygig but hey ho .

Mobile phone I have a monthly contract with Tchibo (coffee shop see tchibo.de/mobilfunk) for 10 Euros a month for 1GB data, free calls to other mobiles. All supermarkets offer similar e.g. Kaufland, Aldi etc. If you want the super snazzy contract with phone upgrades etc you will find for example a Vodafone shop in your nearest town.

Germans tend not to be such insurance hoppers as Brits and often buy bundled insurance products from an insurance salesman (Versicherungsmakler) such as Allianz or HUK Coburg or suchlike. I always feel we must be getting a bit ripped off as we are not chasing the best deal on each product but our insurance bod assures us we are getting discounts for bundling everything together e.g. car, home and contents. You will find all Germans have (or should have) personal liability insurance 'Haftpflicht' which comes into play when your dear child whacks its car door into the neighbouring parked car. (Knowing voice of experience).

Washing machine In your nearest big town you should find a big electrical store such as Saturn, Media Markt, Euronics or Tevi. Or if you want a Miele, youl will find a dedicated Miele shop (which I always find quite weird as the shops are tiny and it will be a one man show who does Miele repairs and sales).

Thanks so much calabalamuc for going to such detail-exactly what I needed to know!

What do we think the going rate is for a cleaner here? And culturally, this is much like the uk, right? I mean people won't think I'm ridiculously jumped up for looking for a cleaner? (With 3 dc under 7 I would sacrifice a lot to have a cleaner )

Depends whether your cleaner is doing a cash in hand job (i.e. not declaring for tax). I think you would be looking at 10-13 Euros an hour. If it is not cash in hand, it will be more expensive as they will have to pay insurance/tax etc.

I will be honest with you that where I am, the only people I know with a cleaner are working mums and then it seems totally normal. If you are a SAHM and have a cleaner, you may incur some German eye-rolling but it may well be behind your back and you will have to decide whether to give a shiney shite about it or not!

P.S: I often feel quite slovenly compared to my German counterparts who seem to be clean freaks. I never seem to go into other people's houses and encounter the same level of chaos as in my own four walls!

I well I think we are probably the sort of family to incur quite a bit of eye-rolling anyway so maybe I'll just decide to have a thick skin about it from the outset. But also, how on earth anyone manages to keep their house clean if dc 1&2 finish school at 12 and there's a (very mobile) baby at home is beyond me. I mean how is anyone achieving this??!!

Anyway, I have very nearly tied up all the uk life now, so time to start getting excited about the new life! On a mission to find playparks, nice after school activities/lessons for dds (age 5&6), baby groups, fitness/social classes etc. so any tips/ ideas gratefully received!

Good attitude .

Seriously though I think the way people keep their homes clean is either:
a) like me, constantly living in semi-chaos and have a house that looks pristine for 10 minutes after the big clean and then slips quickly back to chaos,
b) they are serious about their competitive martyrdom. I have a neighbour who has a spotless house who likes to tell me how late she was up the night before hoovering the stairs / making potato salad for the next day / dusting under the piano. Last week she told me: 'I don't mind working my fingers to the bone until 9:30pm but anything beyond that is a chore' ... and I was feeling a right lazy hoor because the minute my kids are in bed, I am parked on the sofa ready for some well-earned relaxation. Which is why her house looks like it does .... and mine looks like mine does.
But I tell you what her competitive martyrdom doesn't half make her a boring twat sometimes....

Ooh no. Who the actual fuck hoovers under a piano???!!!! No, I prefer being a happy slattern and (hopefully) paying a nice cleaner to take care of the worst of it. I have a feeling I have a long way to go before my attitude is Germanic

We have a cleaner in a village but it took me years to find one (as in actual years - we first looked about 3 years ago and found one about 6 months ago). We wanted an above board one though as we wanted them to come while in I was at work and have insurance. Ours is totally legal, pays tax, has insurance, has proper contracts and receipts and we pay €16 per hour (which is roughly what I earn too! But the cleaners comes 3 "man hours" per week - actually a team of 3 come for one hour - and what they do in that time would take me a whole day).

FIL found a cleaner quite quickly after MIL died but he pays her cash in hand, 10€ per hour. She doesn't speak German, which is why she's so cheap (he communicates with her in Croatian, which was MIL's mother tongue not his, but you may also find a non German cash in hand cleaner who speaks better English than German).

I haven't told my neighbors I have a cleaner I'm pretty sure nobody else I know has one. None of the families I know well have two full time working parents though - I only work 20 hours but am also studying 19 contact hours per week plus assignments etc. so it adds up to at least full time, plus 3 kids... I feel defensive! But also that it is more than justified especially as I do all the cooking and food shopping and laundry for a family of 5... The neighbor I talk to multiple times a day is a cleaner (cleans the primary school) who owns her own absolutely massive detached house, I feel funny telling her I employ a cleaner but I don't know why - if she were an accountant and I paid an accountant I wouldn't feel funny about it, so I guess that's my issue!

We found our cleaning company in the end through ebay kleinanzeigen, people also recommend betreut.de though we had no luck with that route when we tried a couple of years ago because the cleaners we phoned tended not to have cars and to want to work in towns in homes easily reached on foot from where they lived or by bus.

Neighbours becoming friends won't expect to come into your house and settle onto your sofa with a cuppa without an express (usually prior) invitation btw - if people pop over to chat they are happy to do so on the doorstep in a way that would maybe be a bit odd in the UK. This helps with the whole comparative housework standards thing! :o Mind you DS1 said when he was about 8 that he liked going to one of his friends' houses because it was "exactly as messy as ours" and that he didn't like going to tidy houses so your kids may do the judging instead of your neighbours