Want to move to UAE but something bothering me...

[FortyCoats]

Hi,

We're seriously considering a move to Dubai or Abu Dhabi next year. Job prospects in our field are great, they're beautiful cities, lots of expat community events/clubs etc, lovely weather, great nightlife, outdoor activities. Basically loads of pros.

We've read up on the laws and are happy we can live with them, they're nowhere near as strict as some people have made out when trying to scare us off the idea. I have one problem though...

We have friends over there and during a Skype discussion the other evening he mentioned a few things that made me sad and angry. Apparently if I wear standing in a queue in a shop with several different race people before me, I would be called to the front of the line because I'm white. Also, where he lives, the houses all have separate accommodation for maids comprising of a small room and bathroom which have no access to the house. That part doesn't bother me as I'd never have it in me to employ a maid but the shop things bothers me immensely.

Anyone living there know if this is true and if so would I be frowned upon for politely declining the offer to jump the queue?

I really can't go if this is the case so DH would have to go alone.

Assuming obvious racism isn't obvious

Apologies, delete first 'obvious'

Hey I have lived in Dubai foe four years. And I would suggest you go to the website www.expatwoman.com and have a look at issues discussed there. As one poster stated go visit then make your assumptions or decisions. You can also post your concerns on that site. Hope it makes your decision easier. Good luck

I hope you don't experience the rest of the world based on secondhand opinions and randoms posting on the internet.

Of course not! In fact I'm going to pop over to Syria next week just in case everyone is lying

I have lived in the Gulf region for several years, and have friends who live in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. One friend in Dubai does not employ a maid, but that is not usual - almost everyone does.

I had a part time, live out maid/helper (which isn't allowed in the UAE, I think) which suited me fine - she was wonderful and meant I did very limited cleaning. I did all childcare myself - you may find that many/most expats will have a full time maid who also takes on the childcare too, which for me was a real sticking point.

Some people do treat their maids/drivers/helpers very, very poorly. But that isn't compulsory! You can employ and treat someone with courtesy and as a human being. To be honest, it is how the building workers/road workers etc get treated that I find almost unbearably appalling....... there will be local charities that you can contribute to to help ease that situation through, if you find that it worries you too.

It can be a challenging environment to live in, to be honest. But, you can also make a difference to the lives of some individuals there, if you choose to do so. That is how I decided to view it.

I have a friend from Malaysia who said where she lived it was a social requisite to have a maid if you could afford one as you provide someone with work. Another perspective.

We had a "house boy" as they were then called. He wasn't ill treated or discriminated against, and he had come to the UAE to get the money to provide for his family from where he originated.

There are some people who will discriminate against their maids, and I suspect it is more prevalent the the Gulf than here, but there was a recent case of a couple here who were arrested for keeping their maid as a slave for years whilst living in London, and they weren't the first case.

Likewise the racism, it may be real and prevalent, but it isn't necessarily a reason not to go. When I was there the most racism I saw came from the children of other expats, who thought they were above everyone.

I think when you ask people opinions they jump to the worst case, and exaggerate, as you ask more specific questions, you get the real story. I've experienced the same this week asking some friends about Saudi, that lived there and how they found it. First emails where, ok, sounds terrible, subsequent ones less so..

I'd say some people see a thing happen ONCE and presume it happens all the time, ie the queue thing.

I lived in Bahrain for a couple of years. The worst thing I found were the stares when I walked around, yelling out of car windows at me and beeping. I soon learned to ignore, and walked around less. We had 'house boys' at our apt complex. They cleaned once a week all the apartments. They were also available for extra jobs for us when we needed. Cleaning the car, bringing water up, laundry etc... We were always courteous and polite, paid them properly and tipped.

You can be a small change by treating all people with respect and dignity. You can set the example to those other expat types who think they are kings while living there.

I really like the sound of the adopt a camp program to improve conditions for the construction workers. Really something to get behind.

The government will not change, but you can change things in society while you are there by your attitude and good works.

The survey about FGM in Oman that has been refered to does not look very scholarly.

www.stopfgmmideast.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/habiba-al-hinai-female-genital-mutilation-in-the-sultanate-of-oman1.pdf

It is not peer reviewed and I don't think it has it acually been published.

The statistics has produced are alarming, but it needs to be remembered the sample was small, and certainly not random (a lot of it was composed from interviewing women in a Muscat MacDonalds).

I do not want to dismiss the results, they are horrible. But I would question the wisdom of quoting them as reliable.

I think the Omani government is serious about trying to stop the practice. But it is not an easy, (or even popular in some demographics), process.

Hi forty. I used to live in Dubai, but then moved to HK. Here's my perspective, FWIW,

Re the maid/helper quarters, a lot of older villas are built so that there are separate staff quarters with its own entrance. Most apartments are now built with the maids room/ bathroom built into the apartment. If you want a maid who doesn't live with you you need to use an agency. Otherwise its illegal (or at least it was). Having live-in employees is a very hard line to tread.

Obviously you need to treat your helper well, but at the same time she's not your friend, she's an employee. Many of them are also keen to keep this distance from you. My helper has been with me for 6 years (3 renewals) and still calls me "ma'am" (her choice). She prefers to cook and eat alone or with the other helpers in our block. She has her own TV and uses our wireless and spends the evenings chatting to friends on Skype / FB etc in her room or goes for walks with friends/her sister. We make small talk and share jokes/ raised eyebrows about stuff the DC do, but not about personal stuff. You have to maintain some sort of distance or it would be too claustrophobic- remember she's basically a witness to your whole life- she hears you yell at the kids and crying with post-natal exhaustion. And yes, they do stuff that's wrong, and you have to tell them (e.g. I asked you not to let X ride his bike without a helmet. Please can you make sure he does in future). I guess it's like my boss- I like her, but I don't want to hunker down on the sofa with her every night, doing our nails when she has to also do my appraisal.

Employing a maid/ helper can be a win/win because you can be one of the good ones, in a situation where a job like that is their best financial option. But, don't start out on a wmc saviour mission. They just want a job where they get paid as agreed, get to go home, get their days off and decent conditions (i,e privacy and respect). Things like bonuses/ b'day gifts etc are nice touches. Once you start with the "You know, Marites, I really want us to be friends" they'll either (1) feel embarrassed because they don't know how to relate to you on that level or (2) you'll be coughing up funeral expenses for random family members once a week for the next 2 years. You can start doing more for them as you build the trust (I've guaranteed a couple of loans for my helper or given her advances to buy land and farm machinery in the Philippines). We also helped her sister get a visa. Some ask to borrow money a lot, and you're not always helping them by saying yes, as they then get perceived as the family ATM, getting a lot of pressure from relatives back home to ask you for more and then owing almost their whole salary in repayments. They'd almost be relieved for you to say no. It's the same with going home- some employers offer 3 trips home a year and are confused when the helper says "no thanks" but it's because they are expected to dish out cash and presents when they go home and often they'd rather you just gave them the money.

You can also get yourself in a situation where there's such a culture of mc guilt that they can do anything and you won't sack them because you get into a "they don't get paid much" and "I'm rich and they're poor" mindset. I know people who know their helper skims the housekeeping every week and don't say anything, whereas i couldn't live with that.

The queue thing- at the airport, they will often bring families or women with small children to the front of the immigration queues if they're long (quite sensible really), and occasionally in the bank they opened a "ladies queue", but I've never been called forward in front of other women of a different race, IYSWIM.

Anyway, not trying to sway you one way or the other. Just my perspective.

The Unicef reports notes that FGM is practised in Iran, Jordan, Oman (and indeed Britain and the US) "but reliable data on the magnitude of the phenomenon in these other contexts are largely unavailable." Stats on rates in the UK should be available nationally soon but this is an example of the typo of surveillance in the UK.

I can't find a single study on Egypt verifying the over 90% rate from that wiki "article" either. It just points to credible websites with no actual studies (but cites studies) or articles that also don't contain supporting statistics. Unless you count a quote from a single person as the study.

I would be called to the front of the line because I'm white.

Sorry OP, but that's absolute nonsense! I am white and lived in the UAE for many years and this never happened to me. There are separate Ladies Queues in banks, etc. but they are for all races.

As for maids, only very grand houses have maids quarters separate to the house. And tbh most maids would rather have their own accommodation.

I'm in Dubai and I don't have a maid, no plans to either and we've been here 2.5 years. I would say it's roughly 50/50 split re maids in my friendship group and those that do treat them very fairly and well.

I've never experienced the queue thing either, sometimes there will be ladies only areas but in general everyone queues nicely regardless of gender/race.

It's not a perfect place by any means, you will see people treated badly and there is still a long way to go on equality. But things have improved hugely even in the time we've been here. There is a lot of charity work being done to improve the lives of labourers and slowly but surely progress is being made. I do a lot with my DCs school and we regularly will deliver care packages and food packages. There is plenty of opportunities for volunteering.

The Dubai portrayed as a glitzy 5 star hotel shopping haven is just one part of it, there are a lot of things I love about being here. It's a real multicultural society, my DCs have friends from all over the world and all different cultures and religions and all are celebrated. We go to Diwali parties and Eid parties and they come to use for Christmas celebrations and we all enjoy it!

Come for a visit and have a look around outside of the tourist areas and then make your decision

I used to live in Dubai. FGM isn't illegal in the UAE. The Ministry of Health issued a ban on it being carried out in government hospitals, but if a famiky wants it done, they simply go to private clinics. And these are modern City medical facilities, not some granny in the desert with a rusty razor blade.

www.thenational.ae/lifestyle/fatal-traditions-female-circumcision-in-the-uae#full

gulfnews.com/opinion/thinkers/female-genital-mutilation-a-brutal-violation-of-rights-1.1036052

There was a horrible case when I lived there. An expat had married an Emirati and they had had a daughter together before separating, the mother having minimal rights over her child in Sharia law. The father's family had FGM performed on the little girl while she was on a visit to her father.

I live in KSA. The middle east in general is a pretty racist polished turd. I do think saudi is the worst though. It's ok if you're white and western. The darker your skin, the less worthy you are. I don't have a maid (I too hate the term) but I do have a cleaner. She comes 3 times a week, I pay her for more hours than she actually works and she's a pretty rubbish cleaner tbh but she irons well, looks after our cats when DH and i go away together, and she's very trustworthy. Human and animal rights are non existant. The mindset of the whole area is 600 years behind. The hypocrisy is outrageous. But if you can get past that, getc your head down for a couple of years, worK hard and save money, the long term gain is pretty good.

Cut off too soon. That case and it's publicity contributed to the announcement of the Ministry ban on FGM in government hospitals, as with most of the UAE's grudging and minimal concessions to human rights.

The UAE is annually ranked as 'Not Free' in the Freedom House Freedom in the world report (which measures civil liberties and political freedom) and is well down the Reporters Without Borders press freedom survey.

Even read the Wikipedia page on the UAE's crackdown in its minimal homegrown 'Arab Spring'.

And yes, domestic workers in the UAE are unusually vulnerable to abuse, financial and sexual - their passports are withheld by their employers (who are in law responsible for anything illegal a maid does while in their employ), and under the kafala system, they are not covered by labour law, and have no legal recourse. When I had embassy contacts in Abu Dhabi, there was a significant floating population of indigent 'absconded' Filipina maids who had run away from their employers but were unable to leave the UAE without passports.

I live in Dubai, have done for 13 years. Before that we were in Oman for 3 years,

13 years ago all women would have been offered to jump the queue or they would have a ladies only queue. A lot of it has stopped since we can do most payments online.

Men, including Emirati's, will often let you go in front of them in the queue especially if you have a child with you.

We have a maid (call her housekeeper), she is part of the family but chooses to eat seperately (we eat too early). She has been with us for 2 years. We needed her as we both work full time and school finishes at 2.30.

Yes there is racism but there is everywhere. You help where you can.

We are still happy here, seen massive changes over the last 13 years and will continue to do so.

I have a friend who had been in Oman for years, and I simply cannot understand why she would be happy in a place where women/girls routinely have their genitals mutilated

They dont. It has been illegal here for as long as Ive been here which is almost 40 years. In fact I think its more like 45 years ago that the practice was criminalised and health care professionals were told to inform of any cases they came across to the MOH. But more to the point in almost 40 years I have never come across a woman who has had this done and living as part of a huge extended family and the wife of a local means I have plenty of access to local women. Girls are told about it at school and its made very clear its not acceptable.

I think I'm just massively ill-informed

Yes. I would wholeheartedly agree with you on that.

When you do move to Dubai, you will see that a lot of the housemaids advertising for employers, will put, American, British, Australian employer preferred. They can and do choose the nationality they want to work for.

Unless they are hired into the country by an agency in which case they are paid quite poorly and have no choice in the household they are place in. Those are the domestic workers I feel so sorry for. So if you do decide to hire a domestic worker, by hiring individually under your own sponsorship, rather than through an agency, you will be doing a very good thing.

If you live in a house, you will likely have a gardener who earns pittance, you can make his life much easier by giving him a decent tip, a few pack of rice or lentils, and a nice bonus every now and then.

The queuing thing your friend mentions is unheard of.

There are lots of no-no's in the UAE, you don't swear at anyone, you don't flick the finger at anyone, you never get into an argument with a local, you don't get into a taxi pissed drunk and forget your address or argue with the taxi driver, you don't kiss or get overly affectionate in public with anyone of the other sex, homosexuality is illegal, although there are lots of gays in Dubai, but they need to be discreet. If you have a car accident with a local, it is likely you will get fined even if you are not at fault. Customer service is not as we know it.

At the end of the day, if you respect the culture and the laws of the country you live in, you will have a wonderful experience is an amazing country.

Oh and they have very strict social medial laws, so when you do get there and get pissed off and frustrated, never publicise it on any social media, never post a photo of anyone you don't know or who might take offence to their photo being shared on social medial, never repeat a rumour or start a rumour, you could find yourself in jail and eventually deported.

If you live in a house, you will likely have a gardener who earns pittance, you can make his life much easier by giving him a decent tip, a few pack of rice or lentils, and a nice bonus every now and then.

Or a good wage to begin with that makes not having to give tips of lentils etc necessary.

The queue thing is not true, but it is true that different nationalities are treated differently in Dubai. If that is something you cannot stomach, it is not for you, BUT.... you do not have to treat people differently and it is just something you have to accept if you live there it is a smallish price to pay rather than send your husband alone - not good for your relationship. It is a different culture but one in which you can have a very good life.

I had a maid when we lived in Dubai. DH was away 80% of the time, DS was not old enough to be left alone and my lovely maid was a lifesaver. I am still in touch with her, we skype regularly. Because of the modest wage I paid her, she has educated her son and built herself a house in Sri Lanka. I would never let her suffer even though it is now 3 years since we moved back to the UK. Do not assume that having a maid = having a slave.Yes the rooms are small, but we made sure Sriyani was comfortable, set her up her own kitchen/Tv etc. She would not have wanted to eat with us. she preferred her own native food and sometimes to prepare food for friends. You have to realise that although maids live in your house, they are an employee, not your best mate.

I got the impression you had to treat the 'maid' as a lesser citizen and that they would treat you like royalty

My mum was In Qatar and her 'maid' was just like a cleaner would be here. Mum's friend 'bought' the 'maid's' sponsorship from a Qatari family to get her away from the slavery-type arrangement, and she could also work for other people, like my mum.

I got the impression you had to treat the 'maid' as a lesser citizen and that they would treat you like royalty

Dear God.