Would my children have a better future in the UK or in Germany?

[loewenzahn]

The looming EU referendum has made me reconsider our options lately.
Our current situation is this:
I'm German, have been in UK 20 years, I'm a nurse and have never worked in Germany. DH also EU citizen , 2 DC, one in reception one younger. No other family in UK.
Currently in London in tiny flat, can't afford bigger, will have to leave London in next 2 years for better accommodation or sleep on a sofa bed til the end of my days.
Plan was to move up north/ Leeds/Sheffield way or Scotland. Pretty sure I would find a job, not sure about DH but would find something eventually. Worried about schools, paying for Uni when kids are older, general state of the NHS etc.
My brother thinks we should move back to Germany. He is in Leipzig. We like it there on holiday. Apparently Germany has a nursing shortage but I rarely see vacancies for general nurses on the hospital websites. Brother thinks provided I found a job we could afford to live there. DH does not speak German at the moment but is good with languages so could pick it up.But much more difficult for him to find work than in the UK I think.
Flats are nice and cheap. Schools are pretty 'old school' I think, but not so much drama about getting into one. University at the moment pretty much free.

Added complication: we are a mixed race/ dual heritage(or whatever is politically correct these days) family, so I worry about racism in that part of Germany. But then the UK is not exactly a racism free utopia either, I guess.

And obviously if UK leaves the EU we are stuffed anyway.

Would be most grateful if anyone had any thoughts in this conundrum.

Sorry, meant tenant not 'denglish' renter.

I appreciate this thread has veered back to Germany/England again...

But I wanted to add that Edinburgh is an incredibly diverse, welcoming and cosmopolitan city and no one would bat an eyelid at a mixed race family.

Thanks for the update littlemonkeyface. That's definitely a very welcome change.

We live just outside Stuttgart. Our rent is €2200 per month. Thank god DH's employers covers the rent...

kate Do you rent a house with pool or is that the going rent for your area?

"We live just outside Stuttgart. Our rent is €2200 per month."

Goodness, that's unrealistically high for many parts of the republic. Stuttgart is full of Mercedes employees who can afford rent like that (or at least the employer can) for ginormous houses, it pushes the whole market up. The area around Munich is similarly overpriced.

In a lovely leafy part of Berlin you can get a decent modernised family house (terraced, but with three bedrooms) for around 1300; it would be less in the eastern suburbs of the city.

We have friends in a small village not far from Frankfurt with a lovely detached newbuild 2-bed house, and they pay just over 600.

So I was in Leipzig for 2 days last week. I was kind of hoping being in fairly close proximity to my mother would put me off and send me running to Scotland at lightning speed. But no, there is something quite lovely about Leipzig. It didn't help that SIL dragged me to an ice cream place that sells kinder chocolate ice cream!That alone would be worth moving for.

While I was walking round with SIL, I decided to count non white people out and about. Got to 12 in 3 hours. Not exactly a hotbed of diversity. But then I knew that already.
Arrrgh... don't know what to think.

Loewen, what decision are you tending towards? i've been watching this thread intensely due to being in a very very very similar situation with DH from your neighboring town of Dresden (quite possibly have outed myself now), but i'm the one on the fence.

Loewenzahn, I'm also in a similar position in that I'm from Germany, have lived in the UK for 16 years, but am wondering whether a return to Germany would be feasible and desirable. Children are 8 and 5, so I'm not sure how easily the older one would adapt. Also, I studied in the UK, non-descript BA degree, so probably worthless in Germany. Whether I'd get a half-decent job is my biggest worry.
We'd probably be moving to Rheinland-Pfalz/Saarland area though.
Very difficult to weigh up the pros and cons, but my overriding thinking is that it would be better for the children in the long run (and probably also for me, as I haven't really made very close friends over all these years and therefore my social life is rubbish).
Are you any closer to making a decision?

Are you still around? Have sent you an interesting link per PM.

I'd be throwing stuff in bin bags and tripping over myself to move to Germany.

Just logged in for the first time since the whole hacker drama. Thank you to everyone who is still with me in my indecisiveness!

caterpillar2001 thank you for the link, the job I can see on there is in Delhi though, would have been an option before kids but I would not move to India with kids. :)

It's so difficult making these decisions when you have kids, so much responsibility. Before kids I was quite happy to up and leave, try somewhere and move around but now I feel really stuck.

We are no closer to a decision but we are going to Germany for the half term. My brother has taken the week off work, I think he is launching a one man Leipzig promotion campaign.
I'm a bit worried about going this time, judging from the papers, racism seems to have increased considerably since the refugee crisis.

Great to hear that you are still thinking and good that you are going there to see what it feels like. Why don't you try some normal everyday activities, where you'd meet other families with children, to see how it feels/if you feel completely comfortable?

Also, I was thinking that maybe it would be good for you to get in touch with some Verein für Einwander or people with other backgrounds, to hear what they think? Maybe there is some family with experiences that could be good for you to hear about. I had a quick look and I cannot find anything perfect, but this is a Deutsch-Afrikanische Gesellschaft that might have members with experiences (more about info on Africa though methinks, but still...) or maybe there is something here: www.afroport.de/kg_institutionen_vereine.php?region=D-Ost (Not sure what mixed races you refer to so just a guess...)

Can recommend this book if you haven't read it - the first chapter is about Günter Wallraff pretending to be black in Germany - not encouraging reading unfortunately, but interesting :-(
www.kiwi-verlag.de/buch/aus-der-schoenen-neuen-welt/978-3-462-04315-0/

I hope you'll have a really good visit, and stay well away from Pegida :-(

Really helpful thread - we are currently thinking of moving back to Germany, so I've read with great interest.

I'm from UK but lived in Germany for 10 years, and have a German DH. We are thinking of moving back to Germany, having tried living in UK for the past 5 years. The reasons for this are

• we miss the lifestyle. Everything is done outdoors, people walk and bike everywhere, the entire summer is spent on the balcony, chatting and drinking wine rather than sitting on the couch watching TV.

• the social security system - and it is SECURITY. DH found it incredibly difficult when we moved here, because he worried that he'd lose his job, and within a couple of months, we'd lose everything. German unemployment benefit is generous at first (although less so after a year or so I think), so you have time to look for a new job. Here, we would default on our mortgage within a couple of months, if he didn't find a job immediately.

• the schools. One of the reasons for moving here was the less structured schools, with less exams and tests. With hindsight, this isn't as great as we thought, because it's very difficult to know exactly where the DC stand. We are in Scotland though.

• further education. Yes, they do make the decision re academic / non-academic quite early, but the non-academic school isn't rubbish. It's great for vocational training, and we've come to realise that it would suit our daughter very well.

Housing and childcare wasn't an issue for us, due to living in Scotland and not needing childcare, but even without those, Germany comes out tops.

I'd caution re moving to Scotland - one of the things that worries us is potential exit from UK and/or EU. If another indyref comes along, and Scotland decides on independence, it is far from clear that we'd stay in EU. I'm actually considering applying for German citizenship, because at least that way, I'd remain EU citizen, regardless of the political decisions made in UK and Scotland.

I was talking to DH about a friend who was considering moving to Germany, and he said 'as long as she doesn't move to the East' because they are a mixed-race family too. I'd certainly worry about that.

Could your Dh do an apprenticeship once he's learned German? There is no age limit, and it would give him a small income for the first couple of years, and then he'd have a qualification. There may even be grants in this area - worth taking a look at. Or as a mature student, he's likely get Bafög.

Re income - don't forget that with your DH not working, and DC on the Steuerkarte, you'll not be paying much tax.

I thought I'd revive this thread as I have a new dilemma and could really do with some perspective.
DH(who is Asian) was really happy when we went on holiday there last October, he had previously been worried about racism but we had no problems at all and Leipzig had a really nice atmosphere.
Had a big talk with DH on New Years eve and we agreed to try for a move to Germany(Leipzig) sometime this year.

Then Cologne happened and all the other stuff came out and now I'm really worried.
I'm keeping an eye on German newspapers and I'm concerned about the rise of AfD and Pegida.Am I overreacting?
DH is the most respectful, mild mannered and kind bloke and I would hate to bring him into a situation where he might be in danger because of the colour of his skin.
I don't know if I'm explaining myself properly.

Do you think the situation has got worse for people who are obviously not of German heritage because of the appalling behaviour of parts of the recent wave of migrants? How do you think the political situation in going to develop in Germany(particularly the east)?

I totally understand where you are coming from Loewenzahn, and tbh I have similar worries at the moment. My DH is originally from Afghanistan but has lived in Germany for over 20 years, we have children together and I worry how things will be for them in the coming years. We live in Frankfurt and haven't personally experienced any negative consequences due to recent events; I just get extremely frustrated at how the whole situation is portrayed in the media.

I think there is a very strong cut between those who are anti-refugees and blame all problems on them and those who are defending them/the policies and doing everything they can to help. There's not a large grey zone...and I think it really depends on where you are. I imagine the situation/atmosphere in Cologne is very different to Frankfurt for example right now. Personally, I see Leipzig as one of the more tolerant cities in the east and although there is a pegida following there I would guess there are plenty more liberal/tolerant people than right wing...AfD is IMO so extreme that they may be gaining some support right now but that it certainly won't be sustainable longer term or on a wider basis (hope I'm right there!).
Its very difficult because it is such a big decision to make. How does your DH feel?

I think that in the immediate aftermath of Merkel's decision to welcome anyone who could get here, it was very difficult to express any reservations without being accused of being a rascist/fascist etc. So many people who did feel uncomfortable about Germany's ability to assimilate upwards of a million people from a different culture just kept quiet. That left a polarised debate between those who advocated the abolition of all frontier controls and the extreme right. That is the kind of climate in which Pegida et al flourish.
There has been quite a considerable rowing back from Merkel's original position in the last month - post Cologne and in response to the rebellion within the CDU/CSU. I think that that is poitive because it permits a more balanced and nuanced debate in which the real problems can be addressed and moderate people can express a view.
There will always be those who feel they can abuse other people based on the colour of their skin/sex/sexual orientation. I think that those attracted to the extreme right in Germany and those who attacked women in Cologne at New Year actually have a lot in common. They are generally poor, uneducated and marginalised. The challenge is to offer them all an alternative - employment, dignity and a future in which they can develop a genuine sense of self worth - and are therefore less prone to manipulation by sinsiter political forces.

I know this isn't the question that you originally asked but would applying for British citizenship (are you even allowed to?) make the situation any better?

I live in Germany. My neighbourhood consists of Brazilian, Argentinian, Ghanian, American, Croatian, British, Indian, Polish, Turkish and Syrian nationalities. There are probably many more but I don't know everyone here .

For every Pedgida march, there's an anti-Pegida march that vastly outnumber the opposition. The AfD don't even sit in the Bundestag. They're a bit like UKIP in that they may poll well but the reality is that few vote for them.

Back in 2011, when the London riots kicked off in Tottenham (and the mini-riots around the UK) I had a handful of German friends commenting on how unsafe the UK really was, how thankful I must be that I don't live there, or school my children there. Spiegel ran an article on the rise of UKIP in the UK and I heard similar comments. On both occasions, I politely put them straight and explained that the country, as a whole, cannot be judged on the actions of the few.

What happened in Cologne at New Year was horrible, unthinkable. I read a lot of the German and British press over the following weeks and whilst the German press can be held to account for their initial lack of coverage, a handful of British publications ought to be ashamed of their xenophobic hate-mongering.

OP just in case you are still considering Scotland, we are a mixed race (White/Asian) family with very English accents living very happily in Scotland. You would have no problems fitting in. Free university education, easy to get into schools, lots of lovely countryside. There is a lot to like.

I live in Cologne and while I have seen neo-nazi types rounding on an arab looking guy on the street I also saw normal German men who were out shopping minding their own business defending him and a local shopkeeper ushering him into the shop and blocking the entrance against the men who were threatening him.

Every nationality has a few bad eggs. But, on the whole I don't think the Germans are too bad...

Thank you for the voices of reason! I have calmed down a bit. I was sick for most of the last 4 weeks so I had a lot of time feeling sorry for myself, reading the news and pondering and getting a bit hysterical.
It is difficult to judge a situation from the outside but I think I get a bit carried away.
Anyway, must get started actually looking for a job, without that all the pondering and worrying is futile anyway.
And yes, if I can't find a job there then Scotland would be the next option.