Would my children have a better future in the UK or in Germany?

[loewenzahn]

The looming EU referendum has made me reconsider our options lately.
Our current situation is this:
I'm German, have been in UK 20 years, I'm a nurse and have never worked in Germany. DH also EU citizen , 2 DC, one in reception one younger. No other family in UK.
Currently in London in tiny flat, can't afford bigger, will have to leave London in next 2 years for better accommodation or sleep on a sofa bed til the end of my days.
Plan was to move up north/ Leeds/Sheffield way or Scotland. Pretty sure I would find a job, not sure about DH but would find something eventually. Worried about schools, paying for Uni when kids are older, general state of the NHS etc.
My brother thinks we should move back to Germany. He is in Leipzig. We like it there on holiday. Apparently Germany has a nursing shortage but I rarely see vacancies for general nurses on the hospital websites. Brother thinks provided I found a job we could afford to live there. DH does not speak German at the moment but is good with languages so could pick it up.But much more difficult for him to find work than in the UK I think.
Flats are nice and cheap. Schools are pretty 'old school' I think, but not so much drama about getting into one. University at the moment pretty much free.

Added complication: we are a mixed race/ dual heritage(or whatever is politically correct these days) family, so I worry about racism in that part of Germany. But then the UK is not exactly a racism free utopia either, I guess.

And obviously if UK leaves the EU we are stuffed anyway.

Would be most grateful if anyone had any thoughts in this conundrum.

Marking place. Will come back in a wee while. I find it bloody tough here to be honest and the school system is hard, at least where I am in Bavaria. Rent at 550 really? Mine is 1150 warm. Your other half having no German is also a huge minus. Leipzig zoo is nice though

We are in Luxembourg and also worry about the Brexit
I can easily say old west Germany would be my choice before England.
Based on better social security, health service, cleanliness, transportation and infrastructure.
I would add that although difficult to get used to coming from "liberal anything goes" Britain, I like the rules and regulations you find in Germany (and Luxembourg) I have grown to like the sense of security it gives.

From the few Germans I know I would say Germany
The maths teaching there is fantastic likewise the work ethic instilled in children
I hear rent is much cheaper

Germany, no contest, although I am not familiar with the area you are considering OP. If your qualifications are acceptable and you can get a job then in your case I would be packing up now.

The two issues that stop me and that I keep thinking about are:

1. How are we going to be treated as a mixed family? Will the children get grief at school?
2. Will DH get a job? Obviously he would have to learn German first but even then there is the issue of no German school certificates and no 'Ausbildung'. Which is a rather big deal in Germany.

Could you survive on your salary? Finding a job is astonishingly hard. I tried last year and ended up coming back to the UK. And that's as a native German speaker who happens to have British degrees. Employers appear to have tunnel vision over there and if you don't fit their boxes... There's also a lot of 'who you know' stuff going on which is pretty unfair if you are new to the area (but maybe your relatives could come up with a job for your Dh).

So coming back to your question OP, your children would have an excellent education and employment prospects. Plus a wonderful and much freer childhood. If you and your Dh would do so well is another matter....

Hiya - you were asking about mixed race experience in Scotland (in amongst the German options!). We are not mixed race but did move to Central Scotland as 'outsiders". It is a lot less diverse than London, but definitely not all white. We're in a mid size town north of Edinburgh and I'd estimate about 20‰ of each DC classes is non-white and about the same again white but not Scottish heritage. Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen would be more diverse. Of my local friends there are two mixed race families.

I don't think there are any particular race problems and your children would be unlikely to 'stick out' (other than initial London-ness).

Schools are generally good and no lack of places (though I think Edinburgh city may have some issues). Quality of life million times better than London and MUCH lower cost of living.

+1 for Scotland.

I'm thinking I would be able to get a job, there is a shortage of nurses and some areas are recruiting from Spain and other countries.
I'm trying to figure out how much I would be able to earn, my rough guess is we would have about 2000 euros after tax etc including child benefit if I work full time and DH not earning anything. Don't know if he would get any benefits.
Is that doable in a relatively cheap area? My brother thinks it's fine, my mother keeps ranting that it is nowhere near enough and we would all starve( not that she earns more than that, don't know where she gets her ideas from).

I would never move from London to Leipzig or anywhere in East Germany as a mixed race family, sorry.
We are a German and EU national family and if we ever go back we know it will be really hard to find a place that would have the potential to become home. London spoils you.

Nurses do earn quite a bit less in Germany than over here. Unemployment is high in the East and without qualifications it will be hard.

Whenever we go on holiday to Germany we really like it, but after a few weeks we want to go home again.

I would try and work out how plan B could work, stay in the UK and move somewhere cheaper.

Based on what English friends, who are in a position to compare the quality of life in UK and Germany, say, I would second what Archfarchnad has written about Berlin. A German-Scottish couple I met recently, both professionals, recently left Scotland (not sure if Edinburgh or Glasgow) to move to Berlin because they were no longer willing to put up with spending large amounts of money for housing and childcare for what the German partner considered to be, comparatively, a substandard quality of life. All Brits I know here do not see things improving in UK either. On the other hand, some say the slide is slowly taking place here as well but may take another 20 years to reach current UK levels.
As far as renting is concerned, be aware that probably every landlord will insist on a rent payment history (Mietschuldenfreiheitsbescheinigung) and especially a credit report (Schufa-Auskunft). Depending on your family income you may be eligible for a "Wohnberechtigungsschein" which is a qualification certificate needed to live in apartments built with state subsidies so as to reduce rent costs.

Where to live? You write that your husband originates from a developing country. Does that country have an embassy in Berlin? You could always call up the embassy and ask what they would recommend. Of course you don't have to mention your real name or explain that your husband now has the nationality of an EU country. Very often the switchboard or front office staff is German, maybe even married to a national of that country, so there should not be any language problems and the person would be able to relate to your situation.

We as a mixed race family with children of 1/4 African descent ranging in shades from brown to white have absolutely no problems in our solid middle class residential area. We consciously chose to live here because after having lived abroad for many years we wanted a break from "diversity"; I suppose we are also rather conservative. If you can identify with the often unwritten rules of living in such an area then I encourage moving into such a quarter of which there are several in Berlin.

Reading through "Tagesspiegel" articles (Berlin/Schulen) will give you an idea of the problems facing some schools in Berlin. Usually your designated primary school is defined by where you live (Sprengelprinzip). Exceptions apply to school with special educational character (Grundschulen mit besonderer Prägung), e.g. bilingual European schools. Our children are in a faith school, so I cannot give any first-hand information on primary schools.

Irrespective of where you want to or can live I would first ensure that the children have a place in a primary school that you are happy with, and then find accommodation.

"We're in a mid size town north of Edinburgh and I'd estimate about 20‰ of each DC classes is non-white and about the same again white but not Scottish heritage."

I'm in a small town in the central belt and as a rough estimate that sounds about right...schools in Edinburgh are more diverse.

I've never come across issues with racism (though I'm white so obviously limited experience) in schools or communities. Not that it must not exist anywhere, but I do believe it's less of a problem in Scotland because there aren't the same overpopulation issues that fuel people who are racist.

There are some people who claim parts of Scotland are not great if you're English, but I moved up here as a child to areas where you would assume if there was going to be an issue there would be and I've never experienced that either.

The Scottish education system has quite a few plus points over England IMO and of course no fees for university.

"We as a mixed race family with children of 1/4 African descent ranging in shades from brown to white have absolutely no problems in our solid middle class residential area." This is in Berlin, Caterpillar? - I suspect we might be living in the same Bezirk. South-west?

"my rough guess is we would have about 2000 euros after tax etc including child benefit if I work full time and DH not earning anything. Don't know if he would get any benefits. Is that doable in a relatively cheap area?"

I think that's absolutely doable with a smallish modest flat, if you do your shopping in Aldi or Lidl, keep transport costs down (bikes!), and go camping on holiday. All of you would have health insurance under your name, your DH would be included free of charge (and could earn up to 400 euros monthly without endangering that). The second flat I linked to costs less than 400 euros in Prenzlauer Berg; a less cool district would be even cheaper. Caterpillar makes a good point to apply for a Wohnberechtigungsschein. Does Wohngeld still exist? - I got that in the early 90s when I lived alone as a student and it knocked my rent down to virtually nothing.

I really appreciate everyone's input, very helpful. Thank you.
So many things to think about. I think the thing holding us back from going to Germany will be the likelyhood of DH getting a job(or rather not getting a job). I have to be realistic about that. He would be miserable being unemployed. He doesn't have anything remotely resembling an 'Ausbildung', his chances would be slim I suspect.

I was talking to DD(4) and said something about moving and her getting her own room one day and she got all upset and said she loves our flat and she'd be lonely in her own room. Bless. But I guess that attitude is not going to last forever. Could do with winning the lottery so we could stay in London.

If I won the lottery I'd be over in Germany like a shot....

True, we could have two homes one in Berlin and one in London.

In what field does your DH work? I think it's good that you're trying to be realistic about a) how easily he'll find a job, and b) how unhappy he might be if nothing turns up. I hate to see people brushing this off (not on this thread! in general) as 'he'll pick up the language so quickly once you're there' or 'if he doesn't find anything, at least it'll be interesting, being unemployed somewhere different'.

From beginner to professional-level German is going to take a lot of work, especially with writing. I am in awe of Caterpillar2001 for Mietschuldenfreiheitsbescheinigung

I was in west Germany (NRW) for 2 years, a few years back, and I wouldn't especially choose to live in Germany again. Random observations -- but, caveat: many of these come second-hand, from my students (I taught ESL to adults), and people love to bitch about their own country in the classroom, so can't guarantee how accurate these are...

• much emphasis on having exactly the correct qualifications. No appreciation for transferable skills. You choose your field and stick to it.
• school system defines children as 'academic' or 'non-academic' at an early age. If you don't get put in the academic stream, you're written off.
• much of life seems structured around an old-fashioned idea there's a SAHP on-hand to run the household Mon-Fri: school day ends at lunchtime, shops closed on Sunday.
• employers abusing the 400E 'mini-job' system.
• ridiculous letting agent fees. You don't HAVE to use an agent, but it can be daunting sorting out a flat independently when you're new to the country.
• tendency to rip out every fixture of a rental when moving, including fitted kitchens. Not every flat, obviously, but something to bear in mind.
• crappy customer service in retails, and poor range of produce (especially fresh) in supermarkets.
• racism towards people of Turkish origin. I heard a startling amount of bullshit about this (they take the jobs, they don't work, they speak terrible German, they have too many kids, they're responsible for all crime), presumably because I'm white British and would 'understand'... and then there was a lot of when the speaker realised I had a Turkish surname. When enquiring about flats, there was a markedly better response rate when we used my Ango maiden name.

I think it depends on your personal circumstances. If you are rich, then the UK is a good place to live. If you are on a low or middle income wage, then Germany generally offers more because of:

• superior health care
• better take-home pay if one is a SAHP (double tax allowance)
• higher quality and more secure rental accommodation
• better education as schooling not dependant on catchment area
• no University tuition fees

I read a AIBU thread the other day which discussed modern foreign languages in UK schools and was quite shocked at how many people rejected the idea of learning another language. Living in Germany allows DS to learn several languages to a high level and I hope that it will give him more employment opportunities when he is older as he will be able to live and work abroad should he wish to or future needs must.

For me Germany wins hands down, although I will always miss the beautiful English country side and coastal areas.

Löwenzahn, what does your husband currently do, and, sorry to be so direct, how much does he currently earn?

Archfarchnad, we live in the north-west.

It's true that Germany as a whole places too much emphasis on having the 'right' qualifications for a particular job, and then you can supposedly do that job only - but this isn't really the case in Berlin. All sorts of people find work here - not all of them legally, it must be said.

DH teaches in higher education, a lot of his students are not German - attracted by the low fees and living costs, no doubt - but most of them manage to find some job or other, even with fairly basic language skills. Granted it's not high level work, but some sort of manual labour or retail should be possible. But if you're working full time and his earnings are low anyway, it would probably be more economically sensible to keep his earnings at or below the 400 per month, and then do Ehegattensplitting to minimise your tax. That way you wouldn't have any childcare costs because he'd be around more often and could just do his 400 euro job when they're at school. Or would that be totally unacceptable for him? It's not the same as being unemployed, and he could perhaps combine it with studying for something.

Not German or British, but have lived in both countries. I would not hesitate for a second to choose Germany. To me, Britain feels like an impractical, “underdeveloped” country, in so many ways, where the one prerequisite to have a good life is that you have a relatively high income. Otherwise, you’re considered a nobody. I think about things such as

1. The British absolute emphasis on ‘owning a home’. Not about living in a home you like, or liking your general area, but ‘owning’ a home. (The number of times I have been asked ‘do you own your home’ – why is this relevant? Never been asked in other countries – only ‘where do you live’.) This stress starts the second you leave university (if you’ve been there). People who rent are losers, and the system allows them to be treated horribly. Compare this with the rest of Europe, where renting is a completely normal way of living, where you have absolute rights over where you live, nobody can throw you out, and the owner has far-reaching responsibilities when it comes to maintenance (compulsory refurbishment every x years, for example.)

1. Consumer hysteria: Yes, German shops are not open late many Saturdays, and not on Sundays. To me, this is a positive. People do other things than ‘going shopping’, and there are thriving markets (much more than in the UK, where people have got used to being able to buy groceries at 10pm, and thus do not buy locally produced food as much). I feel old when my colleagues discuss what they are doing over the weekend, which inevitably focuses on ‘shopping’ a lot of the time, and they probably think I am boring when I say that I will go for a walk or a cycle ride. (It even seems to be that parents ‘bond’ with their children mainly over shopping.)

1. Less nationalism. I too have read some of the thread discussing why people need to learn languages, and I feel sorry for people who only speak one language. There is no better way of gaining an understanding for your own culture/country than getting to know another country, and you simply cannot without knowing the language. Add to this the ‘UK-centrism’ on the news in the UK – in other European countries (well, at least the additional three I have lived in) there are far more news about the outside world than in the UK.

1. Things work. Trains are on time. The health system is better (but still fair!). No competition to get into the right school, very common to simply go to the nearest one. Few private schools.

1. Germany is not as centralised as Britain, which has led to London being completely overheated and too full of people. Germany has many centres: Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Berlin being the main ones; which makes it ‘more human’, easier to get round (trains never as overcrowded as the ones into London).

Your situation: I’d say that Leipzig is becoming a relatively liberal city? Biggest Gothic festival of the world every year, so would have thought some of that spills over? (Nice surroundings, Sächsische Schweiz great for a day trip.) But yes, there is more racism in the East. Definitely choose a biggish city and choose a ‘liberal’ area to live in (Connewitz still in Leipzig? Been a long time...!)

Jobs – Not knowing what your husband does, I’d start by looking into international companies. Many have jobs where you don’t actually need to speak the language. However – trap – many expats therefore give up on learning the language. Definitely learn German!

(Re previous post – surprised to see someone commenting on ridiculous letting agent fees in Germany, compared to UK – really?)

Good luck!

I really must get DH to read this thread.
I will actually be in Germany for a couple of days next week. Not for happy reasons unfortunately(funeral ) but might focus my mind a little.

Can I ask, what do people actually do if they rent all their life and then retire, surely that would be quite a drop in income. How do they afford the rent?
We were hoping to buy if we move north, obviously in the UK that is the only sensible thing, renting being as it is. And where I'm from in Germany people generally own a house too(tiny village) so I don't have anyone to ask about that.

Caterpillar not sure how to explain that without outing me completely(though probably to late for that concern) he earns a little bit more than minimum wage.

Archfarchnad that's interesting about the 400 euro job, hadn't considered that. Thank you.

tendence Agree with all of your points, especially the less materialistic side of things. will add Connewitz to the list, quite like Gohlis at the moment.

Sorry to hear about the funeral, loewenzahn.

I agree with a lot of tendence's points too, very incisive.

Hmm, people who rent all their lives in Berlin tend to downsize considerably when they get older to reduce rental costs (a 1-room flat for a single person and 2-room flat for a couple), but pensioners in the inner city appear to be pretty poor, sadly.

Most people we know are now professionals in their 40s and many have actually bought a house or flat by this point (usually when they had kids), with the aim of paying off the mortgage by the time they retire. A lot of expats keep their house in the UK or elsewhere, sublet it, and then rent here, using the letting money to pay their own rent. So they still own a property, even though they appear on the statistics of renters here.

I would hope those that rent here without another property are putting away a little extra each month in a pension fund to pay for rent when they retire, and I fear many freelancers won't be able to afford to retire at all, even at 67. It's incredibly difficult for freelancers to get a mortgage because banks regard it as too uncertain.

@tendence, the standard Makler fee when we lived in NRW was more than two months' rent, plus MwSt. Again, that's a non-refundable FEE, and not the deposit! Does this vary from region to region?

You can also find Provisionfrei rentals, but, as I said, it's sometimes difficult to deal with a private landlord when you're new to the area and/or not fluent.

I found the downside of the whole rent-for-life culture in Germany was that renting for a couple of years was even less cost-effective than in the UK. HUGE upfront costs (with an agency), inconvenience with fixtures and fittings (we had to pay an extra 100E for the old tenants' fitted kitchen, and then deal with it when we moved out; no curtain or blind fittings; no light fixtures), very intricate regulations about how and when to give notice.

loewenzahn if you rent all your life, you rent when you retired! Hopefully you will be in a council flat by then. Otherwise you find a place that is about the same price as housing benefit. It is possible outside London. MIL is renting privately in a one bed flat for £10 more then housing benefit a month. She has no savings and her entire income is state pension and pension credits. It means obviously you can't stay in London if you ask that question. We are on the south coast in a county considered as part of the SE. You don't need to go up north to get sensible rent. (If you are interested I can tell you where I am if you message me).

Lady The law about rental commission changed this year. The Makler fee is no longer paid by the renter, but the landlord (Bestellerprinzip).