Permanent move North of UK to Auckland - how on earth do I choose if it's the right thing???

[IndecisionCentral]

DH is considering a job in Auckland. We currently have a good standard of living in North of England with young DC. DH has worked in oz before but many years ago, and has always been keen to return to Australasia.
We both work in healthcare and are disillusioned with the gradual erosion of the NHS.
Attractions are new challenge, better summers, beautiful country, better childhood for kids (?)
Concerns are kids feeling unsettled (both at first and later - will they hate us for taking them away from the opportunities in the UK), missing family (they're supportive and we don't see each other that often anyway), whether we'll ever feel we belong, if we will actually get a better quality of life in NZ, the dismal wet winters.

I've been reading loads, for weeks and weeks. I have a few questions for anyone out there who has been in our shoes and made the leap and would really appreciate some help.

Some people say education is great, others that class sizes are huge and not close to UK standards. What's the truth? DS is currently in private school which we would consider but had hoped class sizes and standards were reasonable enough to not have to.

Auckland seems very expensive for housing and there's is a lot of mention of v expensive foods and day to day living costs. Is this considerably worse than the UK?

If you live in nz and particularly Auckland as an immigrant what would you say are the best bits about living there? And the worst?

It's so so hard. I don't want to make the mistake of a lifetime, nor miss the opportunity of a lifetime. I know no one else can choose for me but I'd really appreciate some views from those further down the line. Thanks.

Sorry ridiculous as in price wise not because of anything else. Can't type on the phone properly.

I have to say, the (European/western) culture aspect is there, if you want it. Our indigenous culture is also there for the taking! There's a thriving scene in Wellington, and I can't imagine it's that different in AKL. Opera, ballet, orchestras, theatre, musicals, comedy, etc. We go to stuff way more regularly here than we ever did living in London. Not least, because the journey in/home is only 10 minutes.

Also, if you want to do a bit of research re education, google the latest (2012) PISA results, and you can see how NZ performs internationally (and of course, compared with the UK).

DH is an Aucklander so have visited lots but never lived there. For me, I would try to live on or near a ferry route rather than trying to use the Harbour Bridge which can get horribly congested. I find some suburbs really lack any personality but Waiheke island is stunning and an easy commute by boat. If you have the dollars that's where I would go!

Thanks again, more great hints and tips. I'd never have thought about the mattresses so thanks for the space saving chipping!

That's a really helpful post sibble, thanks for taking the time. Your life over there sounds great. DS adores anything sporty and it's good to know he'd have plenty to do. Can't believe swimming pools are free! I hadn't considered living out a bit but am starting to look further. We'd definitely need to rent for a while until we figure out what suits I think.

I think your last line is quite poignant living. I'm starting to think we should just view it as a big adventure and give it a try. Worst comes to the worst we can always come back. DH and I would almost certainly find decent jobs again back here due to experience level.

I've had a look at the PISA results as you recommended japanese and they're v reassuring. I think I've got my head around the fact that, while different, the nz schooling system is at least as good as at home, though of course there will be good and bad schools just as there are here. One less thing to make the choice harder thanks to this thread.

Thanks ocelot, waiheke Island looks lovely, not sure if I could cope with a boat every day though - I get mega sea sick even on a short ferry .

Thanks again, lots to think about. I always feel more positive after I've logged in here.

I would definitely recommend renting first. We rented in Mount Eden which I loved but when trying to buy we were competing against property developers so houses were either outside our priced range, do ups (and I mean falling down) or the section was smaller than we had left in the UK. We bought 11 acres in Whitford for less than a house in Mount Eden.

While renting I drove most days up to an hour in various directions to look at areas, day care, traffic, amenities etc... (wasn't working and ds1 slept in car in afternoon) but was really useful in working out where I didn't want to live!

My worry would be that DCs can't find a good job when they grow up and end up in the UK/USA and you in NZ.

Out of interest, why would you think they wouldn't find a good job?

Small population and less opportunity.

Plenty of young Kiwis do live and work overseas, but it is through choice (and tradition!) not necessity.
We are so far from anywhere, that we do have to travel (and therefore earn a living) in quite a significant way. When we go, we usually go for a while.

But most of us eventually come back and settle down, to give our DC the same childhood experiences we had. Certainly for graduates, there is no need to move away for work. Wanting to, temporarily, to experience different countries/cultures is another matter.

And as a parent of young Kiwis, you do sort of have to accept this!

Well, it's probably the same all over, if you choose to bring your DCs up in a safe rural environment then they will go to the cities to find work once in their 20. Only thing about Australia/Canada maybe NZ, or US come to that, is that they are more likely to be a plane flight away, not just a long drive. But Skype makes a big difference there. Mind you so many graduates head for MEast or Asia they might be far away no matter where they started.

That's right - these days people travel for work, no matter what their country of origin.

There are also lots of young Brits and Irish who come down to NZ and Oz for the experience (my DH did this), so the same thing happening in reverse.

You never know what your DC will end up doing!

All you can do is look at your current situation and gather information, as you are doing.

I have a slightly different view to many posters on here. In summary if you have a good life in the UK, I would seriously consider whether it's worth trading it in.

IMO the education system is not as good as the UK. I certainly wouldn't consider putting your privately educated UK child into a state school here. My experience of schools in Auckland is large class sizes, normally in composite classes with no TA. There is little SEN support so those children are mixed in and not given the support they need affecting the whole class. The curriculum lacks depth and the standard of handwriting is shocking. Many schools don't have a uniform and there is very much a laid back approach - great if you like that but not if you prefer a more disciplined approach. The private schools will give you an education that it like the private schools in the UK.

Housing is expensive and in many cases very poor. If you move over I would recommend looking at a holiday let in Auckland first. These tend to be a good standard and they are furnished, they will cost you more but it will be much more comfortable. Be very wary of renting or buying a villa. Mostly they are damp - after all they are made of wood with no insurance and doors and windows that don't fit. It does get cold here and it rains a lot. Yes we having a fab summer but believe me it is very damp for at least 6 months of the year - it's not hot for very long.

Food is expensive, seasonable and there isn't a lot of choice. All the good stuff is sent overseas and we are left with all the seconds here. I am amazed at how much I spend on food here.

Have a good look at the forums, if I did it again I would put a time limit on my stay if I'm honest.

Lastly be prepared for the typical kiwi 'whinging pom' that is seen on this thread. They are racist and cannot take one little piece of criticism of their country, even if it is true!

Good luck with your decision.

Thanks 4seasons. The things you mention are my big worries, along with taking dc away from their family. It's good to get an alternative perspective.

Some of the forums I look at are so negative it made me wonder if people just go on them if they're feeling dissatisfied. That's why I posted here, to try to get a more balanced view.

To be honest I flit from one day thinking it would be a great idea/wonderful adventure/chance of a lifetime to the next day worrying that family is important, especially as you get older, and I'd be effectively removing my kids chance of growing up with family around. Sure there's skype and I'm sure we'll get back once a year or 2 years, but that's not the same.

The damp does bother me. I don't mind our cold winters at all, but hate our dreary autumn/spring.

More thinking to do...

I do agree with 4seasons that housing can be crap and damp. But buying a home does allow you to do things like fit heating and HRV. HRV is amazing. Our house didn't feel particularly damp, but it is so much more comfortable now. The HRV is a ventilation system that takes heat from the roof space and warms your house in cooler weather. It cost 5k and has been worth every penny/cent.

Re schooling though I have to disagree. I can't think of a central Auckland school that does not have uniform. Certainly the 8 or so near where we love all have it. And frankly I wish they didn't as it is daylight robbery.

There are also a wide variety of state schools. Ours is pretty strict and others are much more laid back.

I also like the food here. Although cheese is expensive.

Hi Indecision

I'm an Aucklander born & bred and live here now. We (DH & I) moved back 5 years ago after several years living and working in London, and we've just had our first child, DS.

Obviously I am probably biased as this is my home, but I love living here and especially now we've had DS I am so so glad we will be raising him here and giving him the opportunities for a Kiwi childhood that we had.

Education - both DH and I went to Auckland schools (neither privately educated) and to the University of Auckland. We are both lawyers I've never had any qualms about the quality of our education. When we moved to the UK, DH worked at a top City firm and I worked at a large multi-national company. Many of our friends still live in London and all have good jobs. I certainly felt our education was as good (or better) as people I met in the UK.

Winter - can suck, definitely. And houses here are not warm. We've renovated our house (typical draughty NZ wooden villa), insulated top & bottom, heat pump, gas water heater, and still run column heater in the bedrooms in winter. However, real winter is really only June, July, August. I(t can be really rainy which is really irritating, but on the upside it's not dark early like it is in England.) It's not unusual for us to still be swimming at the beach in April.

Houses are really expensive, ridiculously so. Our place is worth in excess of 1 mill now (not a stealth boast - it's stupidly excessive for a 3 bed house in NZ!) but we are a 10 min drive to the CBD, and we have a full section with room for a pool (which we will hopefully be putting in this year). We could never have afforded an equivalent house if we'd stayed in London. Personally I would never live on the North Shore but there are some lovely areas (Takapuna, Devonport) and some more affordable areas (Totara Vale, Sunnynook etc - often low quality housing though).

I remember thinking groceries were stupidly expensive when we moved back from the UK and I doubt that has changed. I spend a LOT each week at the supermarket. Media is generally shyte and I buy the Economist every week & read UK news websites. We try to travel overseas once a year (this will probably change now DS is here) - I do miss London though I'm always glad to get home. It's good to get out of NZ and get a proper big city fix, so we try to get back to London as much as possible. It's bloody expensive though and the flight in economy is a killer! Sydney and Melbourne are great cities to visit, much larger & more cosmopolitan than Auckland. Lots of people holiday in Pacific islands for a sun fix in winter, I'm not a huge fan as it''s just a bit boring. We went to Bali last year which is about 8 hours from AK.

Racism: I don't think Auckland is excessively racist, though I'm NZ European so maybe (probably) I haven't been affected by it. We live in a gentrifying areas of Auckland - most of our neighbours are Maori and Polynesian. There's definitely latent racism towards white South Africans (probably a legacy of the 81 tour) and towards (perceived) wealthy Chinese immigrants.

Hope this helps... sorry I'm rambling now! It's a long weekend here, gorgeous perfect blue-and-gold summer day. This morning we got up early (6am, thanks DS ), went for a swim, went for brunch at a great cafe on Ponsonby Rd. If you are able to enjoy it - if you have a good job with a decent income, reasonably affordable house - Auckland is a fabulous city to live & raise kids in.

My husband has chimed in and wants me to make the following points:

• Auckland is a really diverse city (biggest Pasifika city in the world) and he strongly refutes the racism claim (!!)
• Many schools offer the Cambridge qualificatons alongside the NCEA (local NZ high school quals) so this would make it easier for your kids to transfer back tothe UK later on if they wanted to
• winters here he reckons both shorter & considerably more mild than north of England.
• Long tradition of Brits settling here and you might get some gentle ribbiing about whinging poms/English cricket/rugby team but generally you'll be made to feel welcome.

I don't have much experience of the health sector but when I had DS a couple of months ago (via CS) almost every specialist I dealt with was a Brit.

P.S Message me if you have any questions! I'll stop spamming the thread now...

Thanks kakaka and Gennz. Have had a quick read through and more useful stuff, but kids playing havoc so will reply later!

Sorry to not get back sooner, just wanted to say I really appreciated the time you took to post Gennz especially when you have a new DS. Congratulations by the way! Your post answered some important questions for me and it's especially nice to here from a local who's been out and chosen to return.

DH hopefully has interviews in the next month or two and we're pretty set on moving (eek!) so keeping fingers crossed for a positive result.

We've been looking at areas to live and are a bit torn between the Epsom/mount Eden area for more to do, closeness to work and double grammar zone, or St helliers area, which looks lovely and seems to be a bit more space around the houses (?) and close to the beach, just a bit worried it'll be too quiet. We don't go out that much but don't want to have to run kids into town for all sports/clubs/ things to do other than beach as they get older. Happy to do a 30 min commute, if that's all it is. Kids are young but proximity to good schools is really important to us. I've been trawling school reports and the primaries around both areas seem good, and glendowie college doesn't seem far behind auckland grammar and Epsom girls. Is there anyone about who knows these schools and areas and could clarify if this is right?

The list of things to do before we move seems enormous, never mind packing up the house. Think we'd be a bit gutted now if it doesn't come off though, and would look for other opportunities out in nz.

Thanks to all who've replied to this thread and pointed me in the direction of further information.

Ok, all those areas are lovely.

Epsom Girls and Auckland Grammar are regarded as two of the best schools around, including the private ones. I don't know much about Glendowie but I think it's good.

I would say Epsom/Mt Eden and the St. Heliers area probably have about the same amount going on in terms of sports/clubs etc for the kids and also for stuff like evening activities. They both have a pretty good amount of bars/cafés/restaurants. Little cinema close to each (Lido, Epsom and. Berkeley, Mission Bay). St Heliers has the advantage of the beach, there is a string of beaches along there, Mission Bay, Kohimarama, St Heliers, all lovely. Epsom/Mt Eden maybe very slightly closer to town but not by much - 5-10 mins drive to CBD off peak, St Heliers 10-15 mins drive. Peak time - traffic along Tamaki Drive (from St. Heliers etc) can be pretty awful but tbh it probably is from Epsom/Mt Eden too.

I doubt driving kids to town would be needed much, most sports and clubs etc will be out of the CBD and like I said, not a long drive if you have to do it.

They're all lovely areas, I'd live in any of them if we could afford it :). St. Heliers area would slightly win for the lovely beaches though high schools possibly a bit better in Epsom/Mt Eden.

Thanks whatshesaid. Really useful to know St helliers only adds on 10 mins travel time.

House prices do seem crazy and if we leave it another couple of years we may be priced out! I think the beaches may win out for us too.

I lived in St Heliers a million years ago and loved it. Nice neighbours/hood, was a short walk to the beach, public transport to CBD was great with a bus stop at my gate and only a 10 minute trip into town in peak traffic although I'm guessing it takes a bit longer nowadays with the dreaded Auckland traffic.

Yup Indecision , house prices in Auckland are ridiculous, and the sad reality is if you don't buy something reasonably quickly the prices will get away from you.

(One benefit of a Grammar education is the alumni networking. Not sure if that sort of thing is/would be important to you Indecision, but could be something to bear in mind.)

Ooh I just thought I'd check in on this thread. Mt Eden/Epsom is lovely. Both DH and I grew up in that general area & DH went to Grammar. It is a very good school & we hope to get DS in there (though we're not in GZ - not too far away though.) It's very traditional so if you're not mad on streaming/boys being called by last names etc you may not want to pay the premium to live i the area.) Excellent primaries as well - Mt Eden normal is a lovely school & Epsom normal is good too I think.

If you find GZ too pricey (and it can be astronomical) Mt Albert Grammar (MAGS) is also good (next suburbs over to the west - Sandringham, Mt Albert, Kingsland) & co-ed (I think they educate boys & girls separately up to 5th form - not sure what that is under "new" system - year 11 maybe?) Primaries in that area are also excellent - Balmoral, Maunghawhau, Gladstone all v v good.

I prefer Mt Eden over St Heliers as it has a nice village, nicer old houses & closer to the CBD. Inner west suburbs of CBD feel younger IMO. (Sandringham, Mt Albert, Grey Lynn - all now also v v expensive, esp Grey ynn!).

St Heliers feels a bit old to me - I'm not a fan of the beaches there for swimming, prefer the outer harbour Shore beaches like Takapuna & Cheltenham - yes I am a beach snob!) School zones in St Hewliers nowhere near as good as Mt Eden. Glendowie College is quite good but I would not put it in the same class as Auckland Grammar or EGGS at all. Selwyn College was terrible for years but I think has really improved in the last few years. I still wouldn't send my kids there though. Some good Catholic schools too in Auckand if that's an option at all. EGGS and Grammar would be my pick for state schools, absolutely. Lots of buses to private schools from St Heliers if you wanted to go down that road.

Traffic wise I think Mt Eden is much closer to CBD than St Heliers - we live nearby & it is a v quick drive to town, even in peak traffic. If you end up working in a hospital it would be v easy to get from Mt Eden (or surrounds) to either Auckland City at Grafton or Greenlane hospitals.

Good luck with it all! We are on holiday this week at the beach, we have had an amazing summer this year.

P.S. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions you think I might be able to answer!

Exciting Indecision!

I always think that Auckland is a bit like a group of villages stuck together which all have very different characters. I would advise having a short list in mind then spending some time driving around if/when you get here. You really can't tell from photo's or real estate photo's.