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Original poster

deutsche muttis! would you accept this school journey for your children?

70 replies

cocopopshater · 14/09/2006 09:45

Hi,

I know that children go by themselves to school in Germany, do you think this journey is acceptable for 3 Grundschule children aged 6,8 and 9?

Walk to the end of the road (5 minutes), catch bus (not school bus), go around 2 km, get off at a shopping centre, walk another 8-9 minutes through a busy shopping/residential area to school.

Same journey home from school. Children must do this journey by themselves.

OP posts:
Original poster
cocopopshater · 14/09/2006 09:46

Am interested in your opinions, because I think someone is taking the p**s here, no way could my children do this journey alone every day.

OP posts:
emkana · 14/09/2006 09:54

I'm German, living in the UK.
I know that many Germans would find what you describe acceptable, but there is NO WAY that I would let my children do it. Are the school demanding that you let the children go on their own?

MissPollyHadaDolly · 14/09/2006 09:57

It does seem a lot to ask and they are still quite young, but children are usually able to cope with a lot more then we give them credit for.

Its not unusual for children as young as 7 or 8 to catch the train or underground to school in London (alone) and when I was 10, I used to have to do a two-bus journey to school and then back again.

Will there be other children doing the same journey, or is there no way you can drive or accompany them to and from school?

Original poster
cocopopshater · 14/09/2006 10:03

They can't be accompanied, and there are no other children doing the same journey.

emkana, The school says that it is reasonable and normal, and I am in deep shit if I dont send my children on this journey basically.

misspolly, I know my children can cope with the normal journey. But what about abnormal situations? People they see every day on the bus and grow to trust, who may not be trustworthy. Days when they are feeling bored/naughty and decide to make a detour through the shopping centre. Cold days when the bus doesnt come (this isnt a school bus, remember). Days when one or more of them is ill - is the youngest supposed to do it by himself?
The journey is too long - if something happened to them near the school, it would be at least 3/4 of an hour before anyone noticed, and then a further hour to check that they werent somewhere along the route, at the school. or the bus wasn't late etc. It is just too dangerous.

OP posts:
belgo · 14/09/2006 10:06

No. A sign of our times maybe, but I wouldn't let my children do that journey alone. Not until they were at least 12, and a sensible 12 year old.

emkana · 14/09/2006 10:08

You say they can't be accompanied - why is that?

Original poster
cocopopshater · 14/09/2006 10:16

because I am a single parent, and I have to go to work. I have someone at home to look after the youngest, but it isn't reasonable to take the youngest (or her carer) on this journey twice a day.
For example, today she has a cold.

OP posts:
emkana · 14/09/2006 10:18

What would you like to happen then for the children to get to school?

Original poster
cocopopshater · 14/09/2006 10:18

also, youngest is due to start kindergarten soon

OP posts:
Original poster
cocopopshater · 14/09/2006 10:20

its a long story, there is a school at the end of our road that has places. Its in the hands of lawyers, so I dont really want to say more.

My argument that this journey is unnacceptable has been rejected by the schulamt, so I am wondering if German mothers find it unnacceptable too.
I really dont trust my children, they are too easily distracted by shops etc.

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KathyMCMLXXII · 14/09/2006 10:24

Have you thought of giving them a mobile phone so that they can call you if the bus doesn't turn up, or maybe even get them to call you when they arrive so you know nothing's happened to them?
I think to some extent you will just have to trust them not to wander off - a 9 year old at least should be responsible enough.
In emergencies (say if the two older ones were ill) maybe you would just have to put the 6 year old in a taxi - expensive to do often but hopefully would only happen very rarely.
Alternatively, if the bus ride is only 2km, what about cycling, if there is a good network of cycle lanes? (When I lived in Germany 10 years ago lots of children of this age cycled to school and the school was very well set up to deal with it - regular inspections of helmets and bike lights in the winter etc!)

Original poster
cocopopshater · 14/09/2006 10:29

I gave the 9 year old a mobile phone recently, she fluffed using it despite training. She could get used to it though.

I dont want to give them mobiles because of losing, theft etc. It isnt normal for 9-10 year olds to have them here.

Even the 9 year old will make diversions to the shops, I know her. She will promise not to, but temptation will kick in.

Cycling - no way. Not that distance. Anything could happen. They are just children - they think its smart to take short cuts etc. There are several big main roads to cross.

OP posts:
KathyMCMLXXII · 14/09/2006 10:33

Good luck with getting them into the nearby school then, Cocopopshater!

admylin · 14/09/2006 10:35

What sort of town or city are you living in? I live in Berlin and there is no way I would let mine even do the 10 minute walk alone - they are nearly 7 and 8 but we live near the new hauptbahnhof in the middle of Berlin and there are just too many nutters and mad drivers about.
I hate having to bring my kids up in Germany because although al the politicians are shouting for people to have more children, they don't seem to give a shit about child safety. Even once the kids are safely in school there is no security whatsoever on the school grounds and a child could walk out and not be noticed missing till evening, also one teacher is quite willing to go out and about in Berlin with over 18 kids (6 and 7 year olds) imagine!
If a child doesn't show up at morning school no one phones or asks where they are, if that child has been snatched or is lying injured or whatever, no one will know till the parents notice when school is out.

bran · 14/09/2006 10:42

If you don't manage to get them into the nearby school could you pay an older child to accompany them. If there is a secondary school (Hauptschule?) near your childrens' school then you might be able to get a responsible 15/16 yr old who could drop them off at school without being late to school themselves.

Good luck with your appeal, it seems strange (but entirely German) that they won't let you children go to the local school if there are vacancies there.

frogs · 14/09/2006 10:45

I'm half German, grew up there and now living in the UK.

I would consider that journey for a 9yo, after having a long hard look at it myself. I might even consider it for the 8yo IF she was with an older brother or sister. I would not consider it for a 6yo.

Dd1 is now 11 and her journey to secondary school consists of: walk round corner to bus stop, catch bus to tube station, 10 stops on the tube and 10 minute walk at the other end. She started walking to primary school with a friend at age 9 (5 mins round corner, but nasty busy road to cross). Ds (7yo) was desperate to be able to walk with them, but I wasn't confident that he wouldn't go off in a huff at some point and try to cross the road himself. On quiet backstreets I would have let him go with the girls, but not quite yet by himself. And I'm considered pretty liberal by UK standards.

Original poster
cocopopshater · 14/09/2006 11:35

thank you for feedback. Am trying to sort this mess out and keep our lives together.

OP posts:
MrsBigD · 14/09/2006 11:43

cocopopshatter I went to Grundschule in Austria (Salzburg) and remember that my brother and I walked there on our own, I would have been 6 and him 8. We had to go down to the bottom of our road, cross a road, walk for about 15 minutes then hang a right (I think) and walk another 5.

Didn't do the bus thing until in Gymnasium which would be aged 10. Especially as times have change significantly since I've been to school I think asking especially a 6 year old to catch a bus is not right, even if in the company of 2 slightly older siblings... 9 year olds can be quite responsible, but equally can get distracted very easily! And what if they get chatting to friends and forget about the youngest?

Hope you get in the school at the bottom of the road. As for the Schulamt... Buerokraten!

I had to walk down our road, cross a road then walk down a hill to catch a bus

foundintranslation · 14/09/2006 11:48

I'm English living in Germany. I know this kind of journey is seen as normal (when I lived in Berlin I was permanently seeing very little kids - Schulranzen bigger than them kind of thing - on their own in the U-Bahn) but I would not so much as contemplate it myself. (Can see some arguments with German dh on the horizon...).

Where are you in Germany?

Californifrau · 14/09/2006 17:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

geekgrrl · 14/09/2006 17:42

cocopop, it sounds too far and I understand your unhappiness. One of my main problems with this situation is that a lot of responsibility is placed on the older children's shoulders, which isn't fair.
I'll ask my mum for her opinion later, she's a Schulraetin in northern Germany.

geekgrrl · 14/09/2006 18:32

hi cocopop, just had a chat with my mum, she says that this is a perfectly acceptable journey for a Grundschulkind. She said walking up to 2.5km is considered acceptable, and so are bus journeys on regular bus routes. She said that sometimes children in year 1 and 2 are accompanied to school, but this happens virtually never by the time they're in year 3. School routes are planned in very close association with the local police and road layout people and she doesn't think this is anything to worry about.

When I was at Grundschule quite a few children came by bus, and most walked there from an estate that was nearly 3km away.

KathyMCMLXXII · 14/09/2006 18:34

"School routes are planned in very close association with the local police and road layout people "

Bit of a hijack, sorry, but I find that absolutely fascinating, geekgrrl - no wonder so many more children walk or cycle to school in Germany than here (where AFAIK absolutely no planning goes into it at all.....)

Original poster
cocopopshater · 15/09/2006 05:38

thank you for feedback, geekgrl.
If it was, say, between a village and a town, then I wouldnt be so worried. I am fairly causal about safety, and leave my children at home while I go to the corner shops, and have let them go to school alone up til now. But on this journey, they will be waiting at 2 city bus stops, both by busy roads. The einkaufszentrum area is particularly dangerous (as well as particularly tempting to children), because it is on the edge of a network of big main roads without houses. My children would have to cross one of these roads, via an underpass I think. It's one of the worst areas of the city that I am aware of (though there arent real slums here, not by UK standards)
The temperature here goes down to around -16 in winter as well.

Should add, this isnt a normal school journey, there are at least 5 schools closer to our house, so route planning doesnt come into it.

You can see that I am preoccupied by this, couldnt sleep last night Emergency court appeal goes through some time in next 2-3 weeks.

an aside: as I walk so much, route planning for pedestrians is a hobby horse of mine. There are some shocking examples in the UK, where pedestrians are diverted anything up to 100 metres, just so that cars can pour through faster. Even Germany isn't immune. Ive had to cross a main road, where you can't cross the whole road in the time given by the green light. You have to either run, or cross to the middle and wait for the next green light. And needless to say, the cars have much longer than the pedestrians. I mean, theyre so much more important arent they??? And this is on a route to a school!

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geekgrrl · 15/09/2006 07:09

it does sound bonkers cocopopshater , I hope you get somewhere with your objection. If there are all these other schools closer (are they all under the same education authority/Gemeinde?), it'd be such a shame for your children to not live anywhere near their classmates, as well as the journey sounding like a complete PITA.