Germany: 1st year Grundschule homework experiences, please, I'm tearing my hair out!

[TheKitchenWitch]

Ds started Grundschule in September last year and has been enjoying it and (imo) getting on well.
We have the first parents' evening coming up at the end of this month and one of the things I need to discuss is the issue of homework.

His weekly school hours are:
Mon, Wed, Fri: 8.00 - 11.20
Tues: 8.45 - 3.30
Thur: 8.00 - 12.20

He gets homework every day except Tuesday (when they have Ganztagsschule). Homework consists of 1 x letters/writing, 1 x maths and 10mins of reading.
The school says each of the first two should take 15min each, so an ideal total of 45mins homework a day.

First of all there is no way that my 6yo can complete the writing homework in 15mins, not because it's too hard or too much, as such, but because the level of perfection required. We've had lots back saying "letters are not exactly between the lines" etc. I always check his homework, and often watch while he's doing it, and tbh to me it's been absolutely fine, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. If on occasion he does something obviously wrong, I tell him and he corrects it.

The maths - this is probably more doable in 15/20mins, but only if ds concentrates totally and completely and doesn't get even a bit distracted for a moment...which I'm not sure is entirely realistic at this age, is it? What I mean is that for him to complete a whole page of sums takes longer than 15mins not because he's working out how to do them but because he's not entirely concentrating and totally commited to the idea of getting the homework done :o

Altogether, with the 10mins reading, he absolutely can't get it done in under an hour, and it's usually quite a bit more than that.

What do we do? If he doesn't finish it, he either has to finish it as school the next day (he says in the Pause, which I totally disagree with) or brings it home again...which means we have even more to get done.
How hard can/should I push him? It seems like so much to me, and I don't think it's right that the supervision of eg whether he's doing his letters right or not is down to me (that's what the teachers are for).

Am I just being naive? Is this just the way it is here and we have to do it like this? But then again, i'm not prepared to accept daily battles and struggles over this - how can I make him do it faster AND better? And isn't 1 - 2 hours homework quite a lot for Erstklassler?
I've talked to other friends here and have heard very similar stories, so it's not just us. There are a few whose dc zip through the homework and complain that it was so little, but they seem to be more the exception :o

Sorry this has been so long, but I'd really appreciate any tips or advice or just shared experiences. TIA :)

German Grundschule is a lot different from English primary school.

They start later but it gets really tough quickly. No reception, playtimes and so on.

I would say it sounds normal. They finish school at lunchtime, so I would factor in two sessions of homework with a break and you'll still be done around 3 o clock.

I was amazed that my primary school children hardly ever got homework in the UK. I grew up with lots of it and have German friends with primary aged dc who spend their afternoons supervising it.

PS Homework is very much extended school in Germany. They spend practising what they have learned at home instead of having lessons until the afternoon to do that.
I would really get into a habit of keeping up with homework. If he's in 1. Klasse, the amount will rise dramatically. Sorry.

If it's a concentration issue break it up into small amounts of homework. But never ever let him go without, he will be left behind and be really resentful if he has to spend the (small) Pause doing it.

I'd like to back up what Cinnamon said. The idea is that because they start aged 6, or even 7 in some Bundesländer, they should be ready to accept anything the school throws at them. The German model is that Mama is waiting there at home to give them a nutritious midday meal and spend an hour supervising their homework, leaving them with plenty of time to go to that Sportverein later.

Here in Berlin something like 50% of all schools have been converted to Ganztagsschulen - and that means 5 days a week from 8 to 4 pm! So even 8.45 to 3.30 sounds pretty short to me. The problem we have had is that DC leave home at 7.15 or 7.30 in the morning, get back at 4.30pm , then have homework or exam revision on top of it. So, to be honest, the idea of having DC home at midday then an hour homework doesn't seem so extreme to me.

I'm not supporting the German system at all - in many respects it's pretty inhumane and old-fashioned. But you will experience a lot worse than this, I'm afraid. Just wait until you get to 4. Klasse and all the fuss about secondary school starts. That's really not fun.

Thanks for the replies :)
I know that this is how the system is, but I'm just wondering whether there is any way to make it more (imo) acceptable. How can I make my 6yo sit and concentrate for that long? If I break it up (which I've tried), it means we are doing homework on and off for the entire afternoon, with just faffing around in between. The former seems unachievable, the latter a waste of time.

I also find it ironic that you are not allowed to home school in Germany, when effectively you are creating a sort of home-schooled situation by the amount of work that needs to be done out of school and supervised by parents (though still set and controlled by the school).

Then what about other types of school - private, religious, Waldorf etc - who do not follow the same system, yet those children will also go to the same high schools. Has anyone experience with these types of schools?

The school has just got the go-ahead to convert completely to an all-day school (on a voluntary basis though ie you don't have to send your child all day). This will probably come into effect when ds is in the 3rd year. It will be interesting to see what happens then.

Aphra I would have thought if the schools are all-day then they don't get homework every day - to me, that would be one of the main benefits of ds being in school all day, that the teachers can supervise his work instead of me!

Just popped in to commiserate. Had lots of "interesting" experiences in the German school system. My eldest now goes to all-day Gymnasium - 7:45-4:10 except a shorter day on Friday, they leave at 1pm with no lunch. One of the big draws for us was the fact that all homework was completed at school. Well, mostly, she has French vocab she works on, novels to read etc. she is the 6th class at the mo. Homework does get added as they get older but at least she should be more in the swing of things then.

As I'm sure you are aware there is a huge Nachhilfe industry here. So many families have someone come in to help with their kids homework or for certain subjects. I was also very surprised after moving from the US and originally from the UK how effectively "parents" i.e. mum is expected to really teach a lot of the curriculum - every day!

You start to understand why people have small families, it's hard to manage it all and work outside the home.

I don't have many answers when it comes to homework - it was a pain in the arse. It can also depend on the personality of your child. My eldest is more of a typical first child and relatively well organized, liling to get on and get it done. My second, although much more resilient emotionally, really had a hard time keeping herself organized (I obviously helped as much as I could). But rather than seeing organization as a learned skill, Germans often seem to see it as an innate quality! It's been very interesting comparing four school systems (we also have experience with the IB/International School route).

Thanks, HoneyandRum :)

There are lots of really good things about the school, and as I said in my OP, my ds is really enjoying it (so far - we're only 4 months in though!!) and is learning lots.

It will be very interesting to see what his teacher has to say next week. I suspect that to her he is very average, a bit too sloppy, doesn't concentrate hard enough etc, whereas I am astonished at how much he takes in and has already learnt in such a short time, and amazed that he can already read and write!! I don't expect him to be able to write perfect letters (they should obviously be recognisable as the letter they are supposed to be, but if a few of his "A"s aren't exactly between the lines (and I do mean exactly), I don't see it as a problem whereas she will comment on it).

He loves uses his new skills too, is constantly writing stuff, and his enthusiasm is imo going to serve him far better in the long run than being able to write an "A" which goes between the lines perfectly every single time. In fact, I'm willing to bet that if he gets told too often that it's not good enough it will have a very detrimental effect on his whole attitude towards school, something I'm obviously keen to avoid.

Agree totally that it seems to be a given that organisational skills are somehow innate.

What Aphra said about the underlying school model. What Bundesland are you in? Here (Thüringen) my ds1 used to get homework 4 days/week from 1. Klasse onwards, and it was incredibly tedious by my and tbh ds' lights - endless sums and copying of writing (quote from his 1. and 2. Klasse teacher: 'In der 1. Klasse geht es um schön schreiben.' God forbid they should have come near them with (shock horror) a book or anything ). It really is about practising, supervised by (in the collective imagination) Mama/Mutti, those skills until, so the theory goes, they become automatic. I don't agree with homework at primary level, but it is useful for us in that ds1 does need help focusing and staying on task, so we treat it as practice at that more than anything else. He doesn't have Ganztagsschule but goes to Hort for part of the afternoon, and quite often finishes it all there, which is something. I was a bit at the maths hw he brought home in the Christmas (!) hols though.

After a year and a bit of very much square-pegness in the system, which here does suffer from a few GDR hangovers, he's in the 3. Klasse now and blossoming, largely because of teachers who like him and are prepared to challenge and stretch him, and working ahead of the class. I still wish he were at school in the UK, because I think there would be so much more about schooling there that would inspire him and fire his imagination, but I've made my peace with the system for the time being. Hate hate hate the selection part of things though, although we've been given to understand that ds1 is a clear Gymnasium candidate.

I should add that I think one of the hardest things for me was getting my head round the comparatively low value placed on creativity and quick-mindedness as opposed to the 'technical' and 'order-related' skills (for want of a better word), cf. perfect As and so on. The slight suspicion of independent thinking persists throughout the system, I'm afraid, though having been involved in training teachers some years ago, I know things are changing. There's also not a great deal of emphasis on the pastoral side of learning, confidence-building etc., built into the system, though you always get teachers who know how important that is.

(Sorry for multiple posts) I do have experience, through working in one, of a faith school (not primary), and essentially, in order to be offiziell anerkannt, these have to look, sound, and behave like a 'school' as it is understood in the terms of the relevant Bundesland, so there isn't necessarily a great deal of leeway for more fundamentally innovative approaches due to the need to fulfil all the various requirements.

(Aphra - where are you in Berlin? We had to leave a couple of years ago for dh's job after having been very, very happy there for years . We do visit often and it still feels like home - which it is in a real sense to dh, and in a way to me).

no advice but my experience is completely different to yours. My dd2 started klasse 1 in August. School starts at 7.45 but they have to be there 7.30 then she finishes at 12.45 except wednesday at 11.25. She very rarely gets any homework. I would rather she get more and just assumed this was the norm. Saying that I think the amount your son gets is alot. My dd would also like to have more homework because she actually did the whole reception year in UK and so was used to school and getting homework there. The school system here is completely different to UK. Personally I prefer the UK system. Or maybe its just we are in a crap school. Sorry for the hijack.

Aaargh just wrote a big long reply and then closed the browser by mistake! Grrrr. Will try and retype it.

When my two eldest entered the Grundschule I talked to my eldest DDs (3. Classe) teacher and the head and said I wanted her to go to Gymnasium they literally laughed at me. I had no idea coming from the US - where the norm is to baldy state your expectations - that this was a no-no and I'm sure considered an arrogant thing to say, especially since she barely spoke a word of German. Anyho the child buckled down and ended up with a recommendation which she can take full credit for as my German is not up to par. They panicked a bit that non-German speakers where coming in as we are quite unusual in this small village (although we live close to a town and 20 mins from the city). Her 3. Classe teacher was new and very daunted, but fair play to her my daughter loved her and had her for two years and so all worked out.

I was also very impressed with how much they cover and how quickly. My dd in 2. Classe coud barely write (I moved them from a crap international school) and within a couple of months she was writing paragraphs in cursive German. However her teacher's personality was truly horrendous. One day my daughter ran home when her teacher asked he to get something from downstairs and she couldn't find it. She was too scared to go back to the classroom. All the parents complained and were unhappy, but this is Germany, bad teachers have a job for life. My poor dd had her for three years!!

Our school is, I think, great in many ways - they do actually do quite a bit with the kids, or at least as much as is possible given the time constraints. The all-day Tuesday is fab, they do all these different clubs and activities, plus have lunch at the school (unheard of around here).

It will be interesting to see if

I'm in BW, in a small village not far from Stuttgart.

Yes, there were many positives about the school and overall we were happy. It definitely integrated us throughly into the community. Loved the head, she was a great leader (speaking of leading, she lead the whole school in a conga line in their costumes around the village every Fasching! ).

Ah, TKW just seen that you're in BW. They take education seriously there, the PISA results are always among the best (along with Bavaria). That might explain the insistence on loads of homework.

If you like the school in general, would it work if you structure the homework in spurts over the afternoon? So when he gets home sit him down with an alarm clock set for 15 minutes and say 'I'd like to to do up to this point' and then promise a TV programme or a book or a game. Then an hour later he does another 15 minutes etc.

Picardy, we're in Zehlendorf. I'm sure you've asked me that before, but possibly when I had a different name. I do radical name changes on here several times a year. Many year ago, pre-kids, I lived for seven years in Prenzlauer Berg (before it became cool), and worked in Treptow and Köpenick, so I know the East well.

"I should add that I think one of the hardest things for me was getting my head round the comparatively low value placed on creativity and quick-mindedness as opposed to the 'technical' and 'order-related' skills (for want of a better word), cf. perfect As and so on. The slight suspicion of independent thinking persists throughout the system"
Absolutely, that still does my head in about German teachers. And at Gymnasium level (I have a DC in the 10th grade too) there's an absolute obsession with outrageously complicated grading systems, which seem to become more important than the material being learned. We have found there to be zero pastoral care at Gymnasium - anyone who has any sort of academic or social problem essentially gets chucked out to a Sekundarschule (which in Berlin has now replaced Realschule and Hauptschule) where they have Sozialpädagogen. The system stinks.

Admittedly my DD is only in 6. Klasse but her school is a relatively new one and they do seem to have more emotional support than some of the more traditional Gymnasium close to us. DH and I have both had good experiences with her teachers we have met so far and they do de-emphasize grades in the Orientation stage. It was meeting with the Head of the Orientation stage that encouraged my DD and I to choose the school after she already had a place somewhere else. When she registered at the first Gymnasium we went up to the library to meet with the Principal. He was very keen for DD to be in the English bi-lingual track as a native speaker. However he then turned to her and said "This is a very competitive class with students all with ones and twos and you must work hard". It just felt intimidating and both DD and I felt quite overwhelmed when we left. There was no feeling or indication that she would get encouragment or support. Word on the street is that this Gymnasium has a huge cull after 6. and the lowest 1/3 are ditched. It's not like a British grammar or US Prep that once you're in, you are in.

At her current school the Real Schule is literally across the street and they share the cafeteria and one of the sports halls. One of my DDs classmates left after 5. Klasse and moved to Real Schule. Now her class has been told he will be back again soon as his grades have improved so much. So this kind of flexibility seems unusual, but I like it. The school culture is very warm and relaxed.

I am also aware of a few local students who commute into BW for school because of their results and reputation. As our kids are bilingual and need plenty of support having a short commute and cosy community was important for us in terms of the emotional support. So far we are happy with the academics.

Should mention her school is in the adjacent school district. We have three other Gymnasium in our relatively small town but they are all half day. I am very glad we explored all the options locally and didn't just beguiled by say the Classical Gymnasium which was very tempting to me but I recognized it was not the best fit for DD.

In this region the parents can choose where to send their children. Is that the same where you are or is it teacher recommendation only?

Also Apnrabane do you have a link for the PISA results for each region? That sounds very interesting.

"Also Apnrabane do you have a link for the PISA results for each region? That sounds very interesting."

It's actually 10 years old by now, but I don't really think things will have changed so drastically in the meantime. The study was called PISA-E, and the amusing thing was that Berlin essentially refused to cooperate so it wasn't included in the results - the thought is that the results would have been embarrassingly bad.

Here's the summary of the results.

It's also generally accepted that an Abitur from Bayern or BW is 'worth more' than one from one of the three Stadtsstaaten Berlin, Hamburg, Bremen.

Aphra - ah yes, possibly, bells are ringing. Do you have any experience of the Quentin Blake school? We are planning a move in the not-all-too-distant future, prob next year, and although it will be tough to move back to Berlin (in terms of finding appropriate jobs etc.), if we get the chance we will go straight for it.

(We lived in Neukölln pre-kids, near the berühmt-berüchtigte Rütlischule, and after kids (and a sojourn in BW) we lived very happily in Steglitz)

I'm finding myself nodding along to all your comments :)

I (along with other non-German friends with dc) find myself in this situation of both wanting to fit in and wanting my ds to grow up absolutely integrated - he is, after all, half German, this is our home, we have no plans to ever leave; however, there is also a part of me that thinks you shouldn't just have to go along with everything and occasionally bucking the trend or doing something differently because you think it is the right thing to do is also something I want to teach my son - he should be capable of "free thinking", of making decisions based on more than just what the rules or norms are.

Obviously, I am known as "the slightly wierd English lady" in our village :o But not to the extent that we are outsiders because of it.

But back to homework: on Monday I set a timer for 15 mins (on my tablet so he could see the time going down) and then we had a look how much he'd done of his maths. It seemed to spur him on a bit, and we found that actually he managed to do it in the time easily.
The letters/writing took longer - so probably 25mins altogether. And then I listened to him read for 10 mins, and we were done :)

I'll try this again today and see how we get on - I've tried things before and it often works once or twice and then isn't a novelty any more and stops working. But we'll stick with it - it would be fabulous if it helped!

I'd really like to avoid spreading the homework out over the whole afternoon, my ds finds it hard to get back into doing work if he's been playing or watching tv, and it would mean that we wouldn't be able to go out and do stuff either, knowing that we've still got homework hanging over us waiting to be done.

Re which type of school they go to after 4. Klasse, afaIk it's the parents' decision. I know of a few who insisted their dc go to Gymnasium and now will be changing at the next half term to Realschule etc. It's so important to try and make the decision based on what is right for your dc, rather than give in to the whole Gymnasium Wahnsinn. People here do talk about it (and studying etc) as if it was some sort of holy grail, whereas to me, coming from England, I'm much more - well, it depends what you want to do and what you#re good at, doesn't it? What good is a Gymnasiumablschuss if you're planning on becoming a plumber? I refuse to be impressed by academic achievement alone (particularly when i know that it comes at a high price of Nachhilfe and masses of extra studying).

Oh my goodness I've gone on a bit! .

Have sent you a short PM, Picardy.

Sorry, I haven't read all the replies.

We are in Bavaria. Yes, as others have said, it is totally normal.

In 1er Klasse my eldest had school 8am - 11.20 4 days a week, with one "long day" when she finished at 12.15 :o She had at least an hour's homework every day, including weekends, and sometimes for various reasons (usually having to finish work she had not finished in class, as they all have to work at the same pace and she was/ is prone to daydreaming) would spoend 3 or 4 or even more hours on homework :( We had a lot of battles and stress over it in 2er Klasse.

Strangely (or not) in 3er Klasse (now) things have got easier _(for now): there is actually less homework (probably because she is dreaming less in class and not bringing class work home as extra homework) and she is more self motivated about getting it done - although obviously we still have blips.

My big tip is get him outdoors, not matter what the weather, running about for a full hour before he sits down to do homework (unless he walks home and its a good, long way).

That was the most useful advice my dd's teacher gave us, as we live rurally, too far from school to walk, and dd (like a lot of others) gets a bus home - the teacher said kids who walk have an advantage as they approach school and homework clear headed from the walk.

2nd tip is break the homework into small 5 mon segments for him if he is struggling to concentrate - and I found it better NOT to sit with DD as it made her dawdling, procrastinating, distracting worse, but keep checking on her.

About to start the 1er Klasse over again with my DS1, but am glad I kept him back so he'll be a year older than DD was starting the whole thing...

Thank you Aphra - have read and will reply when head's together (am currently battling the dreaded Lungenentzündung).