Should we move to Brussels?

[StiffyByng]

Sorry, I know this has probably been done to death already.

We have an opportunity to go to Brussels for 2/3 years. We have an 11 year old just starting year 6, a 2.5 year old and a 4 month old. We would like to have another child.

It would be working for an institution so relocation, rent and school fees paid. I would not work while out there.

There are LOADS of things we don't know about how it would all work, so apologies for any wrong assumptions but...

Pros:

We could rent out our house for around 1k a month more
than our mortgage.

Our 11 and 2 year olds would have brilliant opportunities to learn another language well.

We need a break from the treadmill of life. I hate the idea of going back to my job after maternity leave but can't defend staying at home here. I could have another baby in a cost neutral way.

We could experience life in a different country, in a nice house.

Both DH and I have been trying for ages to improve our French and immersion might help.

We live in a catchment black spot for primary and secondary schools so coming back to make in-year applications might be easier.

Cons:

Will I be lonely?! I have my friends here. I know a couple of people in Brussels.

How easy will it be to get the kids into schools in Brussels-might it be a nightmare?

Our house is cluttered and sorting it out for rental will be hard, hard work.

I don't know what having a baby in Brussels would be like compared to here-I had lovely NHS homebirths over here and get the impression it's very medical over there.

Would we actually talk French?

In short, please help me even start working out how to make this decision?

Well there are loads of us here, so you wouldn't be lonely!

For international schools you should not have too much difficulty I think. I never had a baby in Brussels but I know plenty that have. Someone will be along shortly.

It is an incredibly family friendly city. Lots of parks and activities in English as well as French/Dutch. Local Brownie/guide/scouts groups. Your 2.5 yo could start at a local French speaking school if you wanted that. Best way to learn the language.

Mind you, English is so widely spoken I do think my French has not improved as much as I thought it would.

Thank you!

We have very little time to make the decision and so much to find out about. It's all pretty overwhelming.

I know there has been at least one mega thread on this but where do people whose kids are at an International School and want to speak French generally live - suburbs or centre? I know Brussels very superficially and on first thoughts would like to live centrally if possible but I don't know if this is done in those circumstances.

Hi Stiffy. I've had both my babies here - DS is 2.9 and DD is 17 weeks. The medical facilities are fantastic. Your care is Dr led so it is more medicalised than in the UK but you choose your Dr so you can be more in control. I don't know of anyone that's given birth at home in Brussels.

There's an organisation called the Brussels Childbirth Trust who are based loosely on the NCT. They have playgroups and coffee mornings which are great for meeting other mums.

With regards French, my NDN has lived here (in the EU area) for 30+ years and doesn't speak French.

Would the 11 year old be going to a private international school or European school? The location of the 11 year old's school would dictate in some way where you live.

Private international schools English
ISB Watermael-Boitsfort
BSB Tervuren (outside Brussels)
International Montessori Sint Stevens Woluwe (outside Brussels)

European schools
Uccle
Woluwe-St-Lambert
Ixelles
Laeken (most likely)

Also location of work would govern somewhat where you live.

Then choose a French maternelle (or Dutch if in Flanders) for the younger 2 children (yes you need to think about this now for the 4 month old).

If you are seconded to the institutions and getting private school paid for, I'd go for BSB for the 11 year old, if working in the Schuman area, I'd look to live along the route between Schuman and BSB. It's an hour of French in year 6 at BSB every day, but won't get a child anywhere near bilingual and they need to be bilingual level to go into Year 7 bilingual class at BSB.

If you are directly employed by the institutions, you're likely to get allocated Laeken. Your choice would then be living near to Laeken school, between work and Laeken, or a 30-45 minute bus ride from somewhere probably in the eastern communes. Children do 2nd and 3rd languages at European schools.

Very thorough answers there-thank you.

I've been googling and there are midwives in Brussels who facilitate home birth, but I'd need to know if our insurance would cover them.

Our situation is a bit complicated - DH would be working in Schumann but not seconded. He'd still be employed directly by his employer but based in Brussels. Fees are paid but I think he can choose the school.

Tervuren is quite far out isn't it? Is that where the African Museum is?

Oh and sorry, what's the difference between the European schools and the others? And what age would a maternelle eat my baby?!

You really need to check the entitlement to international or european schools. European schools have 3 category of fees, very few people / employers actually pay these fees, they are a completely different system to the private international schools.

BSB isn't that far for someone working in Schuman area. I'd go for anywhere between Mérode metro and Joli-Bois area of Woluwe-St-Pierre, the latter area is a tram/metro of about 30 minutes to Schuman and 10 minutes to BSB then a 10 minute walk. An 11 year old could manage that route by tram alone and a few do. Mérode is 1 metro stop from Schuman, much closer to the centre. I think I'd personally go for anywhere around Montgomery roundabout down to Tram museum, it goes from urban to suburban but 5 to 20 minutes to work on public transport and 20 minutes by tram to BSB with the 10 minute walk.

Take a look at the local French schools map and you'll see maternelles (2.5 to 6) / fondamentales (2.5 to 12) along that route between Mérode and Joli-Bois, so between work and BSB.

You could go for International Montessori for some more French content, but it depends on your attitude / child's ability to reintegrate into a British secondary. The secondary is very small there, at a guess no more than 40 children in 2 classes I think, French level will depend very much on the other children, nominally bilingual in that there is a french teacher, but not like bilingual at BSB at all and lots of 3rd language speakers for whom neither English nor French is mother tongue.

ISB, well another good school but very American oriented and not so much French and not so convenient for Schuman by public transport.

Maternelle starts at 2.5 so your middle child could already be in full time and almost free school. Could even transfer at age 4/5 to the bilingual stream at BSB as quite a few now do, with the advantage of already being bilingual at that point.

batchgeo.com/map/1f1bf2b3b6e4ad41fe67c1a57d56a826

Just to add to the very detailed info you have had so far: there's another (British) international school much closer to Schuman - BISB, on avenue Emile Max. Primary only but small and very friendly.

If you are employed still be a UK employer and paying UK national insurance, you get a certificate (at least 6 months in advance from HM Revenue as they can take that long to produce it) proving you pay national insurance in the UK. You then take that certificate to a Belgian health insurer called a MUTUELLE and you pay less than 20 euro a month.

For a home birth, virtually all costs are covered, other than transport charges from the midwife. You might get a birth premium from the mutuelle, maybe also from the municipality (depends on where you live) and by the time you've received these, you'll be in credit. I wouldn't worry about costs. Mainly for even a straightforward hospital birth, it's only a few hundred, unless you work for the European institutions where you get everything paid, you choose Edith Cavell hospital who can charge thousands and get it all refunded!!!!

Yes you could go for BISB or BJAB or BEPS or Acacia or BICS too which are all near Schuman, but they all go up to 11 years only, BICS above 11 years but compared to BSB etc, well if fees are paid, I'm not sure that would be a good choice!

European Schools are the schools that exist to give a mother tongue education the children of the employees of the European Institutions. If your DH has a contract with one of the EU institutions your children would be able to attend one of these schools.

They don't have to go to maternelle, schooling becomes compulsory at the age of six. Your 2 year old can start maternelle in the academic year that they turn three. DS has just started part-time at our local school, he'll be three in December. He'll go to one of the European Schools in 2014 where he'll be educated in English. We wanted him to go to a local maternelle to learn French, as it turns out only one of the children in his class is a native French speaker!

Hi...loads of info already...just want to add any which way you plan it you and your kids/family will love brussels ...bestwishes

You may already have found this website with some info on home births in Brussels: www.zwangerinbrussel.be/index.php?id=18&L=2 I have no direct experience with them as I knew from the start that I'll need medical intervention with my pregnancy due to a number of issues, but I'd be happy to share more about that if you decide you are interested in hospital birth.

If you work for the EU institutions you get the birth itself fully refunded. For the rest (pregnancy check-ups etc) you get 80 or 85% refunded and they don't cover a number of things that seem to be covered by Belgian mutuelles, such as home help after the birth.

Can't comment on schools yet :) One word on location: the majority of expats seem to think that the immediate vicinity of Schuman is dire to live in (as in, soulless at best). But there are some lovely streets tucked away north-northwest of Schuman as well as in the direction of Merode, full of architecturally interesting old-style townhouses of the kind you won't find in the newer parts of the Woluwes (which are particularly popular with expats). There are still enough amenities, public transport connections are fab, Parc du Cinquantenaire is close by, and it is a mixed area with many Commission employees, old Belgian families and on the western edges, immigrant communities (I think mainly Turkish and Moroccan). Just wanted to put in a word before you write it off :)

Re. French: you'll speak as much as you want to. It's possible to live your life here almost completely in an Anglo bubble, so it requires a bit of effort to put oneself out and integrate.

Hi. I've been here since 2006, and there's lots to recommend it. Lots I dislike too, but that's the same anywhere I guess.

I can give a few words on some of your concerns having been here a while.

1. I don't think you would be lonely. Obviously when you move overseas you have to work hard at a support network but there are loads of ways of meeting people here and loads of people coming and going who want to make new friends. Someone mentioned the BCT and that is a good place to start.

1. Schools. I have one child in international school and one in Belgian school. I like both. In the international school you would get in no problem. In the local school unless you enrolled in time, not a chance. Listen to runningmad on the topic, she knows her stuff.

About maternelle eating your child, I totally understand that worry. Our elder son, now 5, was very sensitive and, we felt, would have drowned in a huge school so we sent him to international school. He's been very happy and is academically very well educated. But I think he has missed out on having local friends and he is quite averse to speaking French even though he can.

Second son came along and was a different man. Totally independent, big, boisterous, non reflective. He started maternelle at 2.5 2 weeks ago and he LOVES it. I find it odd because the school is mad busy and enormous, but somehow he just doesn't seem to notice. They do really nice things with them ... lots of singing and painting and they get into a routine very quickly and the class this week has been totally calm each day I have been in. Most people here put children into school much earlier than in the UK so if you are looking for a playgroup for a child over 2 finding something where they have social interaction with children of their age is quite hard and DS2 began to need it. It's a different system and you have to roll with it. When we decided we would put DS2 into local school we took runningmads advice and visited I think 10 schools to see what we thought of them all. It was very illuminating and I think made us much more comfortable with what we were doing. I guess where I still come out on it is that you have to look at each child and each school and decide where you think the fit is best.

Clutter. Do you own your stuff or does your stuff own you?!?!?! I am on the losing end of a battle with the proliferation of junk at all times. An obligation to de-clutter is probably positive!

1. Birth. Had both my kids here. First experience ok, second wonderful. Both in hospital but that would be my preference. A friend of mine has had 3 home births all covered by the mutuelle. Check out bollebuik.be. She had a wonderful midwife.

1. French. If you have a child in local school you will have to speak French and on a day to day basis it is easier if you can. I came here from Paris and speak totally fluent French but have spoken way less French here than I did in Paris, my accent is more English now and I forget idioms because I'm not working in the language all the time. I think inevitably if you don't work and make expat friends and you have BBC TV you can live in quite a little English speaking bubble. I wouldn't expect living in Belgium to help your French unless you really go out of your way to seek opportunities to speak it!

Anyway, good luck with your decision making. Brussels does have much to recommend it (it also has customer service that stinks at best and mostly doesn't exist, wretchedly expensive and limited supermarkets and the worst driving possible but that is another story).

Here is a house which is going to be near I think Mérode metro, to give you an example of a townhouse in that area.

The pros are :
near to work
architectually more interesting
nearer to centre
a small maternelle only - Colombe de la Paix which also has a pré-gardiennat from 18 months to 3 years, which is half way between creche and maternelle and you don't find many of them and ideal if you want a place for your 4 month old!
a large fondamentale popular with international families - Sacré-Coeur de Lindhout
a medium fondamentale again popular with international families - école du Bonheur
You'd struggle to get a place at these schools for you 2.5 year old this year but you'd get places for next September IF you apply right now.

cons are :
in these sort of houses, gardens are nearly always small or just a terrace
some of the streets are hard to find parking on in this area
further to BSB / International Montessori for the 11 year old but a growing number of families at BSB seem to choose Brussels over Tervuren/Overijse where the majority live, seems to be the ones particularly in the bilingual programmer who live closer to the centre of Brussels where French dominates
these houses do cost more than the same floor space more modern house or occasional old townhouse in the suburbs, you'll pay a few 100 euro more for the privilege of living in this highly desirable area, as it has good schools, good shops and restaurants, near to Parc du Cinquantenaire, near to Schuman, metro and tram connections

www.immoweb.be/en/Rent.Estate.cfm?IdBien=4532209&xgallery=gallery&xpage=1

And this is what you'd get in the suburbs

Pros
this is near Stockel metro, it's 20 minutes to Schuman by metro
near 2 good fondamentales packed with international families (about 40% non Belgian and very middle class) - Ecole communale de Stockel and Sacré-Coeur de Stockel, no chance of places this year but would get places for next September, plus near another school - Crommelynck - not very many English speakers there and a bit different different sort of intake, should be no problem for a place for this year and would probably be fine and if you didn't like it, you could transfer to the nearer Stockel schools next September
huge international community here, lots of mumsnetters!
great local sporting and shopping amenities
easy parking
half way between BSB / International Montessori and work

Cons
further from work
suburbs

sorry forgot to post house!
www.immoweb.be/en/Rent.Estate.cfm?IdBien=4515827&xgallery=gallery&xpage=1

Hello! I worked with zwanger in brussel (pregnant in brussels), also had friends who worked with other midwives. Costs are exceedingly reasonable. IE in range of a couple of hundred for a home birth.
pm me if you'd like more details.

By the way, other options in Belgium do include birth centres and the ability to go with your midwife to 'natural birthing rooms' in certain hospitals (e.g. st elisabeth). In other hospitals you can work with a physiotherapist specialised in birth and bring your own as well to the birth :-)

if you have good insurance you'll get a private room and it's a pretty nice experience (ie the reasons for which you might do a home birth in the UK may not apply here).

and there is really loads of cool stuff here to do with kids.

Sorry to disappear-I've been offline a bit.

Thanks so much for all the detailed advice. I really, really appreciate it.

Two questions, probably both already answered but not absorbed by me.

1. How easy is it to meet other people when you're at home with small kids? Are all the family activities easy to find out about and are people welcoming? I'm so nervous of leaving my lovely support system of other mums.

1. It looks like we'd move across around Euro election time. I assume this would be far too late for school applications for September? Do the International Schools (for the 11 year old) get full or are places always available? How do we apply for the 2.5 year old? What sort of childcare exists for under 2.5s and is it expensive?

Oops. A bit more than two questions maybe... As you might be able to tell, I'm finding the prospect a bit overwhelming!

1. very easy to meet people if you join BCT and go to loads of coffee mornings and playgroups. If you choose to live in certain areas where there are big numbers in BCT, it makes it even easier.

2. you can apply now for local schools, you don't need to be here physically and you're not obliged to turn up for places, you might lose say €50 deposit. As for international schools, you're unlikely to be turned away from the big 2 in Brussels / Tervuren which are ISB and BSB, turnover is around 20% in these schools each year, only a few years at BSB are full, the chances are if you apply before the end of the school year, there will be a place, but contact ISB and BSB now, they'll give you some idea how many Year 6 children are likely to move to Year 7. The local school place is going to be far harder to get. Some schools start their enrolments in the next few days, I would urge you to enrol right now if you can.

3. under 2.5 years, depends on if you want full time or occasional. Creches normally cost 450 - 600 euro a month, except they'll all be full, so looking at the expat-marketed ones full time at 800-900 euro a month. Occasional mornings only creche is however only 10 euro a morning, some pay by the day, some pay for each day in blocks of 13 week terms.

If you join BCT it is VERY easy to meet others. There are loads of websites and FB groups.

With regards to schools, depends on whether you want a place in one of the European schools ie subbed by EC, or,whether you are free to choose. For the 2.5 year old, I would decide where you want live and then contact schools in that area. Under 2.5 it is cheaper than UK for a crèche place but IMHO the quality is not so good. There are various Haute Garderies if you want occasional childcare vs full time.

So, to summarise, if you want to meet people - no problem. If you want to sort schools, you need to give much more info on when you are coming, what your package is etc. if you PM me vs the message poster link I can add you to the Belgian Mnetters FB page.

The first time I was in Brussels everything was beige. Everywhere I looked, the people, the shops, the things in the shop windows, the clothes, everything. Beige.

If you like beige go to Brussels.

Jux, that is just ridiculous.

I do like beige!

Also I know Brussels well enough to have seen the non-beige bits.

Thanks, everyone. Am on to the wine now so will save substantive responses for tomorrow but very much appreciated. We're still trying to get the schools element out of HR with no success yet but apparently we'd be on terms equivalent to a seconded civil servant at UKREP, if anyone knows what those are for education!