Expats, have you obtained a better standard of living by moving overseas and if yes, where did you move to?

[suebfg]

The reason I ask is that DH and I are hankering after a move overseas with our young DS - not a permanent move but a move for 3 -4 years or so.

But we have a reasonably good standard of living in the UK and want to maintain a similar standard of living overseas. A priority is excellent schooling for DS (who is at private primary school in UK).

Where could we reasonably achieve this do you think?

Agree with DaisyheadMayzie over cost of living. We are in Wellington, New Zealand. We bought our house at just the wrong time though, at the height of the market. However, I think you tend to get a bigger house and garden for your money than you would do in the UK. Problem is, the houses tend to be cold, damp and require quite a bit of maintenance.

In terms of work, we have both done well with our jobs and are on reasonably high salaries for NZ. They tend to look highly on educational qualifications here and a Masters' degree counts for a lot. I think you would have trouble finding well paid jobs outside of Auckland or Wellington though, and the cost of housing in these areas is expensive.

Public transport is (IMO) cheap though - we pay equivalent of around 60 pounds for a monthly train pass (18 min journey each way) that you can use as often as you like.

Hard to answer such a big question!

I think SE Asia or ME generally seem to be the way to go if you want the best expat package, obviously that's a huge generalisation...but don't know what sectors you are both in.

Private education can be cheaper overseas depending on what you're after.

It's cost us about £20k MORE year to live here in Africa taking into account my loss of income, the payment of school fees (we were using state schools in the UK) and UK flights each year.

We're not on a "package", sadly where we are they are few and far between..dh is on a decent salary, no more than what he was on in the UK - and it goes no further here - but we decided to do this for the experience and naively believed his boss (who has no kids and no mortgage)that we "could live like kings" on the local salary!

I also lived w/o a package in SE Asia a few years ago but then the opportunities and high salary more than made up for the high cost of living and I was able to save a good amount towards my first UK property.

I think you need to narrow down what else is important to you besides education, what you are prepared to compromise on (and there WILL always be a downside regardless of package) and what opportunities are available to you.

We've lived in Singapore, Brisbane and now we are in Dubai. Some friends seem to think we have a great lifestyle. The truth for us is that they are all soul-less places and the only reason we are here is to save up.

I'm Irish and have traveled a lot so my eyes are wide open. We made this choice together knowing it might be difficult.

We've both made more money in all three places - but it does come at a price and we will be going home at the end of next year.

For those of you (like my mother!) who says how nice to have hot weather...you have no idea what it's like living in a sauna 12 months a year (especially in the case of Singapore).

The three places we've lived seem to have sold their soul to the gods of concrete and materialism and it isn't pretty. We long for Europe and culture and freedom to walk in the wind and sun and rain.

We have a much better standard of living in Germany than we did in the UK. Materially, the house we bought is probably 3 times as big as the poky detached Barrets house we had in England and it cost us less than 250,000€.
The dc have so much freedom since we live in a village - ds1 & 2 walked yesterday to drop something off - alone! They're inly 7 & 5 but i knew they'd be ok.
Dh has a 10 min commute to work and i'm enjoying being a SAHM.
Our lives are just simpler but better.

Better standard of living her in China - but does not appeal to everyone.
Re education I think the benefits of going to a local school and learning to speak a second language are greater than 'excellent schooling'. Also most kids in Europe don't start school until they are 6 and kindergarten is really all about play. Children e.g. in Germany and Austria are not expected to be able to read when they start school.
When you move overseas you need to fill in the gaps in your child's education. DS went to a local primary in Austria, therefore I taught him to read in English at home. When we moved to China he went to a British school and we pay for private lessons to maintain his German (he is still fluent). When we leave China we will have to do the same for Mandarin.

We are here in NL on local contracts which means we have to pay our own bills. ;) I could earn more in the UK but then I think there are a lot of things I'd pay more for. Canny internet shopping from UK sites saves us heaps.

As far as quality of life goes, we both think it's better. Such are our employment contracts and local laws, if we were fired today we would get thousands in unemployment benefits for 18 months plus - that's a massive 'insurance'/peace of mind. Neither of us have a difficult commute. It's very cheap to keep my horse although my husband spits blood about the golf prices (and quality of player! ;)).

But for me the best thing is it feels like we live in a bit of a bubble, there just isn't the stupid, petty crime here. We are told our neighbourhood is 'rough' - they really have no idea!

Miss the mountains though....

We're in Dubai too. I wouldn't say the standard of living is any better than the UK for our family. If there were jobs in DH's field we would move on but it's incredibly tough out there. I think if you were on a fabulous expat package with a healthy housing allowance, school fees, flights and relocations costs there and back and of course the all important medical, then you probably would find it better.

The one thing that new expats to the GCC often overlook is just how badly things can go wrong, and they do. Obviously not for everybody but it is something to bear in mind when looking at any expat post.

I think whether you think a place has 'sold its soul' (pippi longstocking) perhaps depends on what you think the soul of a place consists of.... I live in Dubai; I have very nice, very genuine friends; yes nature is different (and less green) but there are parks, beaches, desert to camp in, (little) mountains and wadis; the weather is lovely for 9 months of the year (and even in the summer, can get outside in the afternoons if you have a pool with a bit of shade); you don't get those short, grey, winter days that the UK has.

Maybe if you hunt for soul in the towerblocks and the five star hotels, it is hard to find. No the country isn't perfect (it is very very young, and is improving all the time) - but where is?

My lifestyle is certainly easier than it would be in the UK, as a single mother - I have very very good help, and am able to live in a house that enables that (accommodation which is part of the house but has a separate entrance, to allow her privacy), and to pay her well. I don't have a big commute, and I have lots of choice of shop very close by. Things I missed when I moved here 10 years ago (random things like Boots, organic veg boxes, reasonable newspapers ) have appeared during that time. There is crime, but not a lot...

'The one thing that new expats to the GCC often overlook is just how badly things can go wrong, and they do'

Can you please expand on this? Thanks

suebfg, if something goes horribly wrong in the GCC, it can be very hard to sort out, legally.

When I was in Saudi, two women came back drunk to our shared accomodation, and not wearing abyaas (the long black cloak you have to wear there). The next day we woke up under house arrest, the religious police were monitoring the building. Our managers came and the two women were picked out of the crowd of female teachers by the security guard. They were sent off to a hotel for about 2 weeks, not allowed to contact anyone from our workplace and threatened with deportation. In the end, they were released, but given the possible penalties for drinking, I would have been bricking it.

We were stuck in the country for about 3 months because we didn't have an exit visa, if anything had gone wrong and I had needed to leave, tough luck.

Oh and they decided after 6 months to start charging us bills, which had previously been included in our package - and that these would be backdated. We had no leg to stand on, legally, and just had to pay up. They took it out of our wages anyway, so there was nothing we could do.

We certainly feel we "sold out" to come here, as one of the above posters said.

It's life. But not as we know it or want it.

We've sold ourselves to make three times the amount of money we can make at home. Same as the Indians, Indonesians, Filipinos, etc, etc etc.

I cried the first time I came across a Filipino woman who had left her children (babies) with her family so she could come to Dubai and work only to go home every year. She is one of the lucky ones.

It's a fucked up world isn't it. We can escape - and we will, next year. I know it's a slight exageration but it has felt like a prison/hell hole to us.

It is sad, pippa, when you realise how badly some people over there are living.

When I went to the dentist, the nurse told me that in Thailand she was a dentist but that she couldn't work as a dentist in Saudi, only a nurse. Her children were back over there and she hadn't seen them in 5 years.

Horrible stories of abuse of cleaners as well. Made you weep.

'The one thing that new expats to the GCC often overlook is just how badly things can go wrong, and they do'

Can you please expand on this? Thanks'

Yes of course. For example, If you/your spouse lose their job, visas are cancelled giving you 30 days to find a new one or to leave and bank accounts can be frozen leaving you unable to access money. Outstanding loans and credit card bills can also be called in at that point. I can't count the number of friends we've had to help out in this situation who needed to come up with large amounts of cash immediately. Of course, this can be planned for if one has the knowledge of what can happen.

Allowing a cheque to bounce is a criminal offence and can be presented to the police. Rent cheques (as rent is paid in advance on an annual basis) are often the cause of this one. One would be held in jail until the amount of the cheque can be repaid. Again, something that can be prepared for but it amazes me the number of people who find themselves in this position.

A quick search of recent media coverage will bring up some recent cases that make interesting reading for new expats. I'm unable to expand on this as it will 'out' me. These are just a few examples of things that can happen. A basic understanding of the local laws plus a large offshore cash reserve can usually avoid these particular problems.

pippi wh on earth do you stay if you hate it so much?! Honestly I am baffled surely no amount of money is worth feeling you are living in a prison.

As I have said I like the lifestyle very much - outdoorsy and sociable and I have many genuine friends whose friendship I know will last a lifetime. Back in the uk I can count on one hand the number of friends that fall into that category that I have met since I finished studying.

Like with all places there are problems and the lives of the poor are particularly tough. I'm not sure that there are many woman who haven't been moved enormously by domestic workers who have left very young children in order to work here for a better life. That being said as a UK lawyer who spent years working in the youth courts many of the cases of child labour/prostitution/ drug and sex abuse in the UK moved me to tears. Everywhere has its underbelly.

Many of the "problems" referred to above can be avoided, as is the case anywhere else in the world, by following local laws and customs: don't drink without a license, don't cavort naked in pool, don't be sick in a cab and then get abusive etc etc. I always find it strange how UAE laws are interpreted as unforgiving yet much of the behavior that is not tolerated here is also illegal in the UK.

The are is certainly not for everyone but my time here has honestly been a joy and I have had so many amazing experiences here that I just can't comprehend soulless.

SilentBoob (love the name!): in Carrefour you can now get frozen Brazilian chicken (yay global warming - but at least no melamine....).