Calling all Belgium-living peoples - current or ex

[Hoopsadazy]

To move or not to move - help please!?!?!?

DH offered job near Charleroi. Salary comparable to one offered in London in different job. We have to make a decision super-quick on which country to go for.

Don't own a house in UK and only have DC (3yrs).

Know Charleroi not good to live in so would need to commute. Not sure whether commute would be better or worse than our London option (1.5 hrs each way).

Jobs and salaries are comparable but nervous over upheaval (although excited too!) and generally taking a risk in times of economic crisis in Europe.

WWYD?

Hi there,

We just moved out in July and are living in Waterloo (about 30 mins from Charleroi).

I think if you would like a change of scenery and a bit of an experience then go for it. Can't advise on the economic implications but you've got little to lose by trying it.

My hubby was commuting to London in uk and we certainly have more time together as a family being here.

We have 3 kids, dd 4, DS 2.5 and dd 6 months. Our eldest is in a local school in Waterloo and getting on well. Our son is on the waiting list to go also.

If there's anything specific I can help with I will try but still quite new for us too! Lots of very experienced mners out there!

Hi there
how near to Charleroi is the job and which side of Charleroi? If it's the north side, then a good place to think of living would be Braine L'Alleud and south Waterloo (Mont St Jean area) getting as near to Braine l'Alleud train station if possible, if train to work is going to be practical - trains to Charleroi from Braine l'Alleud are intercity and take 30 minutes, trains from Waterloo add another 15 minutes minimum and involve a change of trains. Both Braine l'Alleud and Waterloo have a sizeable but not huge international population where you'll find other English speaking families.

With only 1 child, you will not get so much tax advantages and child benefit is comparable to the UK - at least you get it on an income of 42.5k gross still, unlike in the UK where those just into the 40% tax band will soon lose it, leaving them worse off than parents just under the 40% tax band. You really need to ask exactly what the yearly NET salary will be, not the gross, in order to compare. There are more tax bands here, you get an allowance for each child and a non working parent. Then there is social security and also a small amount of income tax.

You don't say how much space you are used to, but I would have thought a 3 bed apartment with 120m2 more than adequate and that would cost you typically 800 euro per month, you can go cheaper and smaller if you want, but doubt you could get under 600 per month for a family. Anyway, landlords don't usually allow you to rent above 1/3 of your monthly net income, so you'd need really a net income of 1800 to 2400 euro to pay for an apartment for 2 adults and 1 child.

Here's a map you might find handy - I did it for a mum looking for a French school right in the middle of the area shown, it covers some of the local schools in Waterloo and Braine l'Alleud, I could add the remaining Braine l'Alleud schools to it if you eventually decide to live in that area.

www.batchgeo.com/map/cede6049273e541514fd4c1c5dc4af9b

PS Belgian salaries are normally quoted per month but in fact it's also the norm to have 13.9XXX% months, ie almost 14 months in a year, not immediately, but after working a year you will get almost an extra month at Christmas and another extra month at another time of year, I get my "14th" month in July. So you have to make sure the salary offered is indeed under these conditions. Oh another thing is tax avoidance in the form of meal cheques, sometime eco cheques, these are where you make a small contribution and your employer gives you typically 6 euro per day in a meal cheque which comes tax free. There are many ways of lowering your annual tax bill too - my biggest way of reducing tax is child care costs which I offset, this year that should net me 800 euro refund of tax, if the tax accountant has calculated correctly! I have friends who get 3-4000 euro back each year. Then many contracts also give you a company car, or free to almost free publiv transport, some people get free top-up hospitalisation insurance, in addition to the normal obligatory health insurance which does not cover payments to hospital stays. It's hard to give a monetary value to these "extras".

Natation, have been meaning to ask how we get the tax relief on things such as childrens activities? Do we just keep receipts/invoices etc and give to tax accountant? Are things like swimming covered? Thanks and sorry for hijacking the thread!

Tbh as a trailing spouse, if you don't speak French you'll feel terribly isolated down in charleroi, unless you've got a bit of get up and go.

lozzy - yes you give them to the accountant. One off swimming won't count but generally clubs etc give you an annual attestation showing what has been paid. Dd does holidays/stages with Vacance Vivantes and Toboggan and these can be claimed. Dance class/gym classes we have also claimed for plus the afterschool care and commune run holiday clubs. Your mutelle may also recompense you for some activities.

2nd what natation says about the 14 months - well it is 13.92. We normally get our 13th month in Nov/Dec and the .92 arrives May/June. We use that to pay for our summer holiday. Tax is HIGH though - I was shocked when we moved. As an example 4000 euros gross per month would leave you with about 2300 euros net. My dh pays less tax under the "foreign manager" scheme as he spends a lot of time out of the country. You have to show an economic link with the UK though - house, pension etc....Might be worth investigating....I think food is more expensive than the UK too - though it is better quality. There are MNetters in Waterloo!

Thanks Pantofino nice name change btw

I am one of the Waterloo mners!

Try and use this calculator, it's not perfect but gives you a rough guide, plus the figures are before you add the tax reductions such as child care.
On the 4000 gros per month for 1 working parent, 1 non working parent, 1 non disabled child net salary is 2542 per month, or 2240 per month if the other parent works (allowance for non working parent. However, if it were me, it would be 2929 per month, as I have 4 children, more reductions would be made due to social security than due to tax.
payroll.partena.be/web-simul.html

Lozzyblue, we claim up to 270 euro a year back in refunds for sporting stages and sports club memberships from our Mutuelle Euromut, our contributions are only 108 euro per year, so we rather profit from the sytem. Euromut is not the best Mutuelle in this respect too. You have 2 years to claim back these refunds from a Mutuelle.

Oh yes - forgot about the non working parent!

Using that calculator, you'd need to earn GROS 3000 euro per month, gives you 2077 net for 1 adult working, 1 non adult working, 1 child, then times by 13.92 = 28 912 then divide again by 12 = 2409 euro per month. But you get the 13.92 instead of 12 after a full year of working, for the first year you "build up" the entitlement. So given you would need up to 2400 per month to rent a 3 bed in at 800 euro per month in the Waterloo/Braine l'Alleud area, you need to be on a gross salary of 3000 euro per month (with 13.92 months in the year). If OP's dh had been offered less than that as a gross salary, it will be hard to live, unless on "expat" status that Pantofino's dh has, where you pay less tax.

Ok, ok, good stuff here....
will have to have a read to digest. I know Waterloo a bit - wasn't sure how big it is.

It sounds like we might need an accountant to sort out the tax and am inerested in the non-working parent bit -does that mean it would be better if I didn't work?

Rent around Waterloo seems expensive and not too much around, but they look like more room than we have here.

Think money-wise we would just about be ok looking at your helpful calculations natation. Hard to know what's best but am not looking forward to being at home with DC for 12 hrs a day by myself if DH takes London job.

However, it is a mad idea that we could be living in Belg in January!!! goes for a quick lie down at the thought

It seems like madness, but then what is life for?

Have you guys any regrets of moving - esp with DCs?

On the calculator it makes 302 euro difference on net monthly salary having a non working partner on a gross salary of 4000.

Have you used immoweb.be to look at rents? It shows loads of available apartments in Braine l'Alleud and Waterloo, hardly any in Charleroi, not really that much difference in price, maybe 100 euro a month less in Charleroi for comparable apartment size. Rents are, with a few exceptions in areas, much cheaper in Belgium than comparable housing in the UK.

You really don't need an accountant to sort out tax if you're a straightforward Belgian employee, you just go to a free tax clinic and get them to help you out. Our tax is quite complicated, dh on UK salary working for UK government, we have to declare his income to Belgian Revenue, find the officially approved exchange rate for the euro, I work part time for a Belgian employer and also part time for the UK government, have to declare both, I have every year used the Belgian Revenue tax clinics to help fill in my tax form. It's a free service.

Waterloo has a population of just under 40,000, same for Braine l'Alleud, they are effectively one conurbation and then there's Rhode St Genese attached too, which in turn is attached to Brussels region which is 1 million. Charleroi is 300,000.

Hoopsadazy, if you moved to Belgium, most children start school before the age of 3 and full time too, it's virtually free, so you would be either home alone Mon-Fri 9 to 3, or you would have each other for company and not a lot to do for a SAHM and child here, as most mums work full or almost full time, most 3 year olds are at school, there really aren't many mums and tots groups as there is little demand for them. I would think about the difference in lifestyles between Belgium and London for the non working parent and child.

i am nervous about DC going straight into a maternelle type place as he has only started nursery a couple of months back and then only 2 mornings a week. I have spent last year working full time with DH as SAHD so feel will miss out loads again if he goes straight into somewhere full-time. However, if he settled well, think he would need the stimulation.

I would like to do some work if we moved there, but no idea what and whether could earn more than tax benefit would bring. Guess could finally be an organised mum with cooking and housework and laundry all up-to-date for once!

Apartments = not sure i fancy that after being in a house with garden...

Some children, well usually 1 or 2 max go to school mornings only here. It's still loads cheaper than paying for the equivalent in the UK. After school activities are far far better here, wednesday afternoons are usually spent doing a sport / art / music as there is no school, same for saturday mornings. Many of these activities are super cheap, for example I pay 16 euro PER YEAR for a theatre class for our 9 year old, she could also do ballet or learn a musical instrument, if she had time, all included in the 16 euro price, 13 year old swims 12 hours a week for 270 euro a year - I was paying 3 times that amount in the UK. The most expensive activity our children have done is 16 euro for an hour long tennis lesson. The opportunities our children have are the main reason we prefer living here to the UK.

I meant 1 or 2 in a class of 25 go part time mornings, well they do in our school.

You might like the blog Belgian Waffling. Very funny.

Had another thought - you have to work 12 months before you earn your paid holiday entitlement - the statutory part. I started work in June and got BH's and 50% of the extralegal days offered by my employer. I took holiday but it was unpaid. The next year I was entitled to 10 days statutory hol plus the full extralegal bit (8 days or so)

I certainly don't regret moving here. It is a fantastic place for families I think, compared to the UK. Schools are open to cover working hours, holiday clubs and activities are numerous. Sports and clubs are cheap - and tax deductible! Lots of fantastic parks and provincial domains. It is quick and simple to visit other countries for the day or weekend. Great opportunity for your dc to learn languages. Education is generally of a high standard.

And even if you don't speak French it is still possible to find work - though how easy this would be depends on your experience...

pantofino you are making it sound really good!

I miss the UK - but I would not be a hurry to move back. Not whilst dd is school age anyway.

Are the immoweb prices realistic, or are they negotiable?