Need guidance on possible life in Paris - please help!

[wilbur]

Dh has a second interview for a job in Paris this Thursday. When he was first approached about it, we thought, yay, Paris, how great! But now I am panicking. The job is good, a step up from where he is now but I think he has, as usual, asked for a too low salary esp given that there are relocation costs to consider (the company will help with finding an apartment and contribute towards first four months rent but then that's it, the rest would be down to us).

I know nothing about Paris and need basic guidance on what it's like to live there and can we afford it on what dh would be earning. So if anyone has time to answer any of the following, I would be hugely grateful:

1. Taxes - approx how much of one's pay goes in taxes, is it broadly similar to the UK, or very different.

1. Any idea of rental cost of a three bed apartment somewhere decent? I can only find short-term holiday lets on the internet. And are apartments let furnished or unfurnished?

1. Schools - I have looked at previous MN threads about Paris schools but don't really know what would be best. And the cost of the International School seems astronomical! One of the advantages of a few years in France would be for the children to become fluent - is this possible while still allowing them to slot back into UK system when we return? Our kids are 10, 7 and 5.

Any other thoughts or points about what it is like, day to day, to live in Paris much appreciated. Thanks!

bump, sorry, une bump

I can't help with info on Paris, as I am miles away, but www.seloger.com is a good website for getting an idea of rental prices for long-term rents.

And IME most rentals are unfurnished, though you may find a furnished one if you are determined.

Sorry not to be more use. Good luck with your decision!

Do you know which part of Paris? Chantilly (to the North I think) has a huge Anglophone community, and an excellent school that caters for the large number of bilingual children. I think it does Wednesday school in English so that they maintain their written standards etc. As far as I know it is a state school, but I think they pay a very small supplement for the English classes (100 euros per child ish, I think)

Accommodation outside of Paris should be around 1000-1200, unfurnished. Obviously more the closer to Paris you get. And watch out, unfurnished often means nothing, for example the kitchen will have just a sink, no oven etc.

Oh, and good luck! :)

EABJM or EAB would keep your children up to scratch with the UK system. They're also very economical options as they're partially funded and you're in a good position to apply for them as you're coming to Paris BUT you need to do it quick, especially if you want them all at the same branch.

ISP isn't worth the money IMO. It's not a particularly good example of an international school in the primary section.

Another option is the British school out at Croissy and living out west you get a nice house, with a garden, for the price if an apartment in central Paris. Plus you'd have the option to apply to the International Lycee in St Germain which is very good (but very competitive).

The American based schools (ASP and Marymount) are also good and would probably be roughly the same level as a UK school - probably ahead in some ways and slightly behind in others but the transition back might be difficult for your older one.

If you are transferring back I probably wouldn't consider a state school with international section as the 2 curricula are very different and the state schools with English are usually just the French curriculum taught in English.

Taxes I personally think are higher but that might be because you stock up the money and pay them (your NI equivalents are typically deducted, taxes aren't). Bizarrely our tax bill this year on our combined incomes is lower than DH alone last year and he gets paid more overall so there might be all sorts of tax breaks we don't know about!

Will the company not cover relocation? Is the package salary and that's it or does he get medical insurance/other added extras as part if it?

Good luck! Paris is wonderful.

Do not underestimate the cost of living in Paris. It is hugely more expensive than UK. I seem to spend all of my time throwing money at stuff and have very little to show for it. If school fees are not covered in your "package", I would say you are looking at EAB/EABJM or local French school, unless you are on an absolute fortune. I think our school fees come to 50K plus per annum. If you want your children to become fluent in French, don't send them to the British school - they will learn minimal French there. The other schools mentioned on here should get them up to a good standard (especially - obviously - EAB/EABJM). EABJM is supposed to be very academic and requires your children to have an intelligence test before they join. Good luck in finding someone in the UK to administer this - the place they tell you to use no longer does it! (One of my colleagues gave up on EABJM at this point!)

Three bed apartment in a reasonable area of Paris (ie near me!), I think you are looking at around 3K a month. Charges may be extra.

Frakk, where you are living there are multiple tax breaks that do not apply in mainland France; I pay far, far more tax than people doing the equivalent job out there, even though they earn over 1.5 times what I do.

Taxes are high in France IME and salaries low compared to the UK. I earn about half of what someone in my field in the UK with my experience would earn.

Life is also getting more expensive, partly due to the rise in prices for staple goods, Internet access, utilities, etc. but also due to the state withdrawing from all sorts of areas where it was spending tax and SS contributions. Those contributions have not decreased for the individuals paying them...

Thanks for all these - very interesting (esp since the guy who interviewed dh said it was 20% cheaper than London - but then he is a single man with no children, so perhaps that is 20% cheaper for chic bars and groovy clothes). Our children are in fee paying schools in London so we are already forking out but very stretched by it - having looked at the EAB and EAJB websites, they look like the best option for what we are after and are around the same price, from what I can tell (registration and uniform seem steep!).

Given that ds2 is only 5 and in Year 1 here, I wonder whether just putting him in the French system might work better. He is reading at Y1 level, but not yet writing well in English - would starting again now in French mean that he never gets the hang of writing in English? Would that be a disaster?

Where in Paris do you live Schadenfreude? I have only been there once for a few days and it rained the whole time and we got our car towed away, so I can't say I have any notion of what the city or its various areas are like.

Thanks for the rental site auldalliance - am off to look now.

Hmmm, just looking at Se Loger - what are the ch (assume this mean charges?) costs? Is this like service charges or local taxes? Or do they cover utilities like some apartment block in the USA?

Wilbur, I am in the 17th, near Parc Monceau. Where a lot of the MN mafia live.

The person who said it was 20% cheaper here is talking out of his arse. I went to the market this morning and bought three small pieces of cheese - nothing fancy, a bit of a Tomme, a slice of Comte and some Brie - 14 euros. Wine, however, is cheaper, so you can always drown your sorrows that way.

Could you do local school for a couple of years and then transfer to EAB? Might that work?

Ahhhhh thanks Auld! I was getting very concerned there was some miscalculation and a huge tax bill being produced this very minute. Slightly less reassuring OTOH to know that last year was more typical and a depressingly huge amount goes on tax.

20% cheaper?! No way. Some things are cheaper but everyday things are typically more expensive.

Another point on schools you may have seen on MN threads already - the French calculate school years differently so if you have Sept-Dec birthdays they end up in a different year. Also reading/writing doesn't start until CP (when they're 6/7) but they're expected to get it within a term. It's worth looking into the differences between the systems. But you don't pay uniforms most places!

Hello, Dd and I are currently reading Charlotte's Web on the Metro going to and from her bilingual Parisian school. Surely, Wilbur, this is an omen!

Wilbur - if your DS2 is 5 and in Y1 in England, he would be in Grande Section in France, going into French 11ème/CP (first year of primary) in September. I know for a fact that at EaB he would go into the adaptation class for a year in order to learn French (special little class of 10-15 children). All the parents I know whose DCs have done adaptation for CP are extremely happy with it and the outcome, and they don't seem to lose their English. Your other children would also go into adaptation classes for a year, though the transition gets harder the older they are.

Speaking as your friend, I think you should go .

Hello MI - thanks! Of course, this may all be moot if dh doesn't get the job, but it's all happened very fast so I'm trying to get some idea of what questions he should ask and things he should think about before he goes to see them on Thursday.

Teafortwo - it must be an omen! And as I am a terrific pig, Paris would be a good place for me to stock up on foody treats....

Bonsoir and Schadenfreude - thanks for the school thoughts. Anna - I think the EAB sounds perfect for ds2 (good to know he would hold onto his English - I imagine there would be some catching up to do on return to the Uk in terms of spelling and grammar) and dd. It's ds1 who is the main cause of concern as he is 10 and in Y5 so of course would be moving to secondary school in 18 months time in the UK. He is bright, if I do say so myself , and doing well at school so I think the challenge of bilingual school is something he could manage, it's just the reentry into the UK system that concerns me.

Ok, the list is definitely coming along. Any thoughts about what are the most different / annoying things about living in Paris vs the UK?

The bureaucracy. Oh and the bureaucracy. And did I mention the bureaucracy? (And I don't even pay tax here!)

Hmm. Most annoying thing about Paris...Parisians . Well, some of them.

Re appartment rental- I live next to Bastille and pay 2100 euros a month for a 86 sq m flat-3 bedroom in a nice building. It'll be more expensive if you live in 16th or 17th, but there are other nice areas that are a bit cheaper.

Oh God, yes, bureaucracy. It takes ages to get anything done.

And if your French is, um, on the poor side? I can hack my way inelegantly through basic conversations and understand a lot if the person is kind enough to speak to me in slow pidgin French with lots of hand gestures, but beyond that....

Re bureaucracy - do you mean that the bureaucracy is constant? Do you have to deal with the paper pushers on a regular basis or is it just about registering that you live in Paris and then it's done? Or is it for everything - setting up a bank account, paying rent, everyday stuff?

Our rent will depend a lot on what we can rent our London house for - would love to hear about cheaper, nice places, winnybella. Have found a list of the areas on the web, but it's very lighthearted and more for visitors than people planning to live there.

Oh and healthcare - dh's salary will include the state healthcare taxes and I believe the care is very good - is that true? Can one find a good family doctor easily?

When is your DS1's birthday (month/year?)?

You should probably get an appointment with Georges Pannier, the head of the collège at EaB, and discuss your DS1's case directly with him, as well as having an appointment with Mme Zeller (headmistress of EaB Monceau) and Kelda Knight, her (American) deputy who is responsible for adaptation and will give you lots of info.

I can also put you in touch with parents further up the school via the APE (Parents Association), one of whose missions is to ensure that prospective parents can talk to current parents and get the truth, rather than the sales talk!

January 01 - he turns 10 on Tuesday.

That's really helpful, thank you, I will certainly need exactly that kind of thing if this goes ahead. great to have the names of the school staff, too.

OK - so he would be right up among the eldest in his French year group. That's probably quite lucky. You'd be looking at him spending one year in adaptation in primary, and then going straight into the main class in collège.

If he is very bright, maybe you should try to send him to EABJM where the standard of English is a lot higher in secondary than at EAB - nearly 50% of the curriculum is in English in secondary at EABJM and it will be a lot easier to return to England from EABJM than from EAB at secondary level.

I think 10 is a difficult age - how long will you be in Paris for? If he will see out his education in France, then go for EAB. If you are only going to be in France for a few years, perhaps the British School or ISP or ASP might be better?

In France kids generally go to paedetricians and adults to a regular doctor. It's worth asking around to find a nice doctor for the children.

Bureaucracy is a pain, but as long as you keep on top of things, you'll be alright. I don't believe dealing with a bank is a nightmare- but assurance maladie or CAF-yes.

Nice areas...I used to live next to Palais Royal/Louvre and the rent wasn't insanely high. One thing, though, there aren't that many parks in Paris as in London. There is Bois de Boulogne and Bois de Vincennes outside of Paris and Parc Monceau is very nice, as is Jardin de Luxembourg, but other than that it's little squares and playgrounds. I like my area as I'm next to Bastille and all the metro lines, best market in Paris (imo) Marche d'Aligre, v.nice playground for kids Square Trousseau, Jardin de Plantes with a little zoo and all the shops you might need-so it's very convienient when you've got kids. I personally find 16th a bit dead tbh, but it is very elegant.

Parisians tend to be a bit (or a lot) patronising when you don't speak French very well. Generally speaking I don't find them the most well-mannered of people. When I moved here from NYC it was a bit of a shock, tbh.

But food is great, lots of little cafes and great restaurants and obviously it's a very beautiful city. In the summer it's lovely to go down to the Seine in the evening and sit on the bank and have some cheese and a bottle of wine, so it's not all bad

I can't help with schools as DS goes to a French state school and DD is not 2 yo yet.

We are of moderate income and are the kind of people who even if we had loadsa... would probably still prefer slouching around reading books in MandS to strutting in Hérmes and chanel so find living near La Defense where the price of family living is cheaper and ambience cute, relaxed rather than chic chic perfect for us. We whizz to EaB on zeee Metro four days a week.

Where I live is not everyone's cup of tea but I like the coziness and laid back nature of the town. People are very warm which after a day in Paris is wonderful to come home to. Over the Christmas period we had free ice skating and sledging and in the summer months you can row on the Seine which is fun! This week has been galette week. In the 17th galette's cost about 50euros each. Where I live everyone was sent an invite to go to the town hall to collect theirs where an elephant pranced, faces were painted, musicians played, jugglers juggled and children ran from craft table to craft table colouring and making crowns while you waited! The town I live in has very low taxes compared to Paris itself and houses with gardens if your budget can stretch that far!