Need guidance on possible life in Paris - please help!

[wilbur]

Dh has a second interview for a job in Paris this Thursday. When he was first approached about it, we thought, yay, Paris, how great! But now I am panicking. The job is good, a step up from where he is now but I think he has, as usual, asked for a too low salary esp given that there are relocation costs to consider (the company will help with finding an apartment and contribute towards first four months rent but then that's it, the rest would be down to us).

I know nothing about Paris and need basic guidance on what it's like to live there and can we afford it on what dh would be earning. So if anyone has time to answer any of the following, I would be hugely grateful:

1. Taxes - approx how much of one's pay goes in taxes, is it broadly similar to the UK, or very different.

1. Any idea of rental cost of a three bed apartment somewhere decent? I can only find short-term holiday lets on the internet. And are apartments let furnished or unfurnished?

1. Schools - I have looked at previous MN threads about Paris schools but don't really know what would be best. And the cost of the International School seems astronomical! One of the advantages of a few years in France would be for the children to become fluent - is this possible while still allowing them to slot back into UK system when we return? Our kids are 10, 7 and 5.

Any other thoughts or points about what it is like, day to day, to live in Paris much appreciated. Thanks!

If your children go to EaB there is a very nice English family dr very nearby.

Christ on a bike, teafortwo - my galette only cost me 20 euros at local bakery. They were 38 euros in Lenotre though!

I'd be quite happy living at La Defense. We were "allocated" our flat though (not that I am complaining). Agree Paris can be Poncetastic at times.

Is English doctor "conventionne" (new laptop - cannot do accents)?

Bureaucracy is a pain. Whenever you have any paperwork to do you do it (for some reason all paperwork goes through faster if women deal with it). Now, take your children, wear a pretty "I am innocent and pure" dress, choose the person behind the desk wisely. You need to choose:

(a) the slightly gormless looking bloke who will like the female attention and be attracted to your Motherly nature. So will find the answers to your questions as if his life depends on it.

or

(b) the probably suffering from 'empty nest syndrome' and wants someone to Mother herself middle aged woman who will also answer all your questions as if her life depends on it.

Now, once you have chosen who to ask be careful. Firstly you need to act a bit thick - they don't like it if you try to show any signs of having thinking skills, give off a few body language signals that you are in awe of them and be very very polite and nice!

Once they have done the job take their name and telephone number and use them next time too.

SERIOUSLY 50euros at that trendy place walking from the park towards Ternes... One of the bakers in my town was selling them for six euros. I told him that he was MAD and needed to put the price up immediately... but come to think of it no-one in our town was buying any 'cause we got our for freeeeee so he probably needed to start paying people to take them to get things moving!

Ah, but how big it was? At my bakery it goes from 6 euros for a tiny one to 40 euros for a huge one, I think.

But food generally is expensive here. I shop at Monoprix, because my Franprix is crap, and even buying own brand is not cheap at all. Meat is horrendously expensive, unless you get special offer stew meat and the like.

But I'm broke at the moment, so perhaps I'm exaggerating.

Galette on average 7 euros in my town. 13 in the v posh, delicious pâtisserie.
50 euros for a galette is just . Attrape-nigaud, IMVHO.

Re bureaucracy, the tax people are really awful, you have to provide endless numbers and when you do things online the website was designed by Kafka-style tricksters who didn't think anything through.

Ditto anything to so with CAF/ mutuelle/ registering kids for mairie-run clubs, etc. So many forms, photocopies, etc.

TBH, I am finding that quite a few of the things I really appreciated about living here are being eroded, whether they be concrete or more abstract.

Oh, God, CAF-yes. Our family dossier is on my number. I needed to apply for something else, sent lots of papers etc and got a reply that they need many more as they don't know anything about us. I called them and the woman in charge of our application put everything on DP's old number-no clue why as it was ME who applied. But, even though I have this woman's name, it's impossible to call her or have another person at CAF call her/send email to tell her to put my number in the computer where she will have all the info/documents etc. No, I have to send papers the papers she asked for anyway- proving that I am here legally and lots, lots unnecessary others anyway. With a note telling her that she made a mistake.

I could cry, tbh.

I wrote a huge lovely long post whinging and then the computer ate it. I suspect a French conspiracy.

CAF.

Social security.

Basically you have a lot of forms and if you're even the slightest bit different/difficult/don't tick the box you don't get anywhere. But you don't find this out until 6 months down the line because everything takes forever. And if one thing is wrong then 10 associated things will be wrong.

You will spend a lot of time explaining that you don't have various bits of paper, here are the equivalents from angeleterre/grande-bretange/la royaume uni depending on which insitution you're dealing with that day and they are in fact part of the EU, even though they don't have the euro.

Healthcare is generally very good but very medicalised. If you have no social security cover you will end up paying for things as your EHIC doesn't cover you indefinitely and your mutuelle (medical insurance top up) won't cover you until your social security works. Social security takes at least 3 months to get anything done. Try not to get ill during the first year you live in France, just in case it takes longer

More things....

Banks. Charge. For everything.

Strikes - they happen, quite a lot.

Driving and parking. Personally I love it but I know people who find it difficult and there are some truly bizarre rules and regulations. Depending on who you get car insurance with they may insist you register your GB license with the prefecture, who will try to take it away from you (or maybe that's just mine, because registering a foreign license isn't something they do very often).

Then there are things which are just typical cultural differences but are slightly shocking when you first pitch up like mealtimes, bedtimes, punctuality, socialising etc.

Driving licence: the law says you can keep yours, because EU licences are all the same. You need to register it at the prefecture, so that if it gets lost/stolen you can quickly get evidence that you are actually entitled to drive.

The people in the mairie/prefecture/police municipale will swear blind that you need to exchange it for a French one, because that was the case for years before all EU licences were the same format.

About ten years ago, someone who was really out of the loop claimed I needed to take a driving test to get a French licence, which involves signing up for a stipulated number of lessons and theory test, costing a fortune.

I find that calm, stubborn politeness is the best solution, but is hard to achieve.

I was on sick leave recently and had to keep faxing "arrêt de travail" forms to my work. Each time, I had to fill out the same form, which includes your mutuelle's code. This code is not written on any mutuelle docs, so I had to phone them and ask, and then write it down somewhere clever where I could find it again. These are minor niggles, but since I was on crutches and could barely walk, having to hobble around finding the damn code was irritating to say the least, especially as I had provided it the week before.

I think the answer is to be really, insanely organised and keep triplicate copies of every document you own/receive.

This is all brilliant, thank you. ROFL at teafortwo's primer on how to get through bureacracy, I will have to buy a flowery dress! Although I cannot envisage a situation where my 3 horrors delightful children would be an asset while I am trying to deal with paperwork. I am pretty good at patient and firm and I do the vast majority of our paperwork currently, so I guess I can just about handle that. I will aim for AuldAlliance's "insanely organised".

CAF sounds scary, but isn't that a sort of housing benefit/social housing thing? I can't imagine we would qualify for anything like that, so perhaps I would not have to deal with it. [hopeful emoticon] Social Security includes the health care tax that comes out of dh's salary taxes, right? And is a mutuelle usually included if you are being employed by a large French company? I take it you have to make a claim each time you see a doctor, like in the States, and that is where the headache lies. [strokes NHS lovingly]

So at the moment I am flipping between a vision of myself trotting my beautifully-uniformed children to a chic Paris school while carrying a delicious but hilariously expensive galette and wearing matching underwear (c'est obligatoire, non?) and the other vision which is of me clutching a Kafka-esque tax return and weeping at the door of doctor who is refusing to see ds2 when his eardrum bursts again.

There is A LOT to think about and you are being wonderfully helpful. Thank you.

My underwear rarely, if ever, matches.
I do live in the sticks, though, and would doubtless be arrested for improper apparel if I ventured to Paris. I'm going there in May, actually, so if you see me being led kicking and screaming from a campus by the lingerie police, you'll know who I am.

You don't have to make a claim each time you go to the doctor's any more, if you have a carte vitale. Might take a while to get one, though, so in the interim you'd fill out a form and send it to yr mutuelle. They are straightforward. It was just the sick leave one that needed that secret code.

Yes, but not all doctors have the machine to swipe carte vital, so they give you a paper to send to assurance maladie to claim back the money...

CAF- yes, I would imagine if your family income is above certain level (not sure how high-40 odd thousand, perhaps) you will not qualify for most of their benefits- worth checking, though. If you go on their website it's all explained.

CAF is everything to do with child benefit, help towards childcare costs and any other benefits which you may or may not qualify for. You may escape dealing with them unless you plan to have a child whilst in France!

Social security for your DH is covered by his healthcare taxes. If you don't work or if you earn less than a certain amount then the situation gets more complicated but I'm not entirely sure how it works although several well meaning fonctionnaires have tried to tell me that I don't really work and explain it to me. I politely insist that they are wrong so ignored them I'm afraid. Although now I'm wishing I had listened and pretended and changed things at a later date because then I might be covered.

In theory you now put in your shiny electronic carte vitale and they scan your mutuelle documents and you don't have to pay anything....in theory. What more often seems to happen is your carte vitale doen't get read properly so you have to go update it at the pharmacy or something but that doesn't work so you pay and reclaim.

Gosh, frakk, that must be incredibly frustrating, poor you!

Thank you though, and winnybella for reminding me about things like Child Benefit - I would certainly need to apply for that. We're not planning any more children, thankfully. I will certainly get dh to check that the health benefits the job is offering will cover me and children too. I work sporadically as a freelance writer which will no doubt have to be put entirely on hold while I deal with the move, so for intents and purposes I will be a non-working spouse.

Hmmm, this is making me wonder - I was born in the USA and hold dual citizenship, British/USA and have a USA birth certificate. I imagine that might require some explaining.

At least your 3 children would get you a tax break....your dh will get an allowance for himself, one for you, 1/2 an allowance for 1st 2 children, and then another full one for child 3.

And if you're very lucky you might be able to get hold of a "numerous family card" which gets you discounts for all sorts incl. train fares etc. Unfortunately whilst we didn't have too much problem registering ds at Maternelle or getting child benefit thingy from CAF, apparently we can't have card because we are Swiss. Which was news to us.

Importing cars from UK was a nighmare adventure into officialdom - I don't recommend it!

I'm afraid your dual citizenship may well mean you get put on the "too difficult" pile and find it harder to get some stuff organised...however whilst the cost of living is definitely higher, wine is cheap and will help you come to terms with these things!

Good luck!

I think the "famille nombreuse" perks have been slashed. SIL used to get them as she has 3 kids, and she no longer does.

Interesting point AuldAlliance about the drivers licence. I have had that very conversation at the mairie. What happens though if you (or your dh grr) gets radared? My licence has my Uk address still. As far as I can see, I have never had points deducted.

I suppose it's like parking tickets: in theory there are reciprocal agreements between EU countries and they can chase you. In reality, no one bothers for small sums.

P.S.: I presume you are driving a UK car? When tracking down speeding drivers, they trace your vehicle, not you, IYSWIM.

It is an offence if your carte grise does not have an up-to-date address on it.

Sorry - complete interloper here as I don't know PAris (was reading just to dream....), but..

What is likely to be the timing of the move? You said a bit further up the thread that your 3 DCs area ll in fee-paying schools here. Presumably you have to give a clear term's notice or forfeit 1 terms fees per child. Quite a lot of money, I'd guess. Even if your DH is not good at asking for money, could you steel him (before Thurs interview) to ask if they'll cover this as an additional item in relocation package? Or perhaps you been brilliant and got it all in hand already.

onimolap - yes, we were just talking about that last night as the company would want dh there asap if he gets the job. I think we would see out the school year here and dh would have to commute weekly for a few months - that would give us time to organise schools, rent out our house, find an apartment, etc, not to mention side-stepping the school fee notice issue. It's all a bit overwhelming really, but you're right, you have to try and think of everything!

I got a speeding penalty notice (well DH did in the car that is registered (in France)to me...) We just paid fine online. I had a quick look into it and it seems unless you rack up lots of points the authorities basically ignore it and it goes in the too difficult pile (espec. if you pay fine promptly), BUT if you get too many and live here, they can insist you swap to a French license so they can take the points off. (unlike UK, in France you start with points and get them taken off.) Since the schemes are different you don't get "French" points on your UK license. I was thinking as long as I kept the points coming off in France balanced with points going on during trips to UK I'd stay on zero. Apparently my clever scheme is unlikely to work though....

Wilbur: how did the interview go?