Settling down in Belgium - anyone done it?

[bigtalksmalltalk]

Hello

We are currently expats in Belgium and will probably move in the next 6 months for another overseas assignment. My husband and I are starting to think longer term and neither of us want to live back in the UK (recent trip there it felt much more materialistic, family unfriendly than Belgium). We would need to plan to come back to Belgium and "go local" and I wonder if people could tell me their experiences of schools (our 2 children are too young for schools) and general living. We live in a bit of an english expat bubble where we are and I would want to get away from this area. Even though we have been here 2 yrs I am ashamed to say I know little of the nuts and bolts of living here, tax, how to buy a property etc etc.

A big concern for me here over going back to the UK would be integrating and really feeling at home as opposed to being always with people moving on.

many thanks

This website might be of interest scary.

italianmom, ds1 has just finished at uni (England), ds2 is still at uni (England) and dd is in her final year of primary.

I can imagine that Decroly will be difficult to get into. Another similar school is l'autre école but will most probably also be difficult to get into. Worth a try though?

Alternative schools in French in Bruxelles

1 Ecole Décroly 1180
the only fondamentale AND secondaire in BXL

2 Ecole Amélie Hamaide 1180

3 Ecole Plein Air 1180

4 Ecole en Couleurs 1190

5 Ecole Nos Enfants 1190

all above 5 in south

6 Ecole des Etoiles 1130

in north east

7 L Autre Ecole 1160

8 Ecole Singelijn 1200
beware Singelijn very academic and quite pushy, not sure what its alternative method, recently sacked head teacher too

both in east

All are members of FELSI
www.felsi.be/fondamental.htm

Alternative school in Dutch in Brussel

Steinerschool Brussel 1070
in west, 2 to 14 year, plans to expand whole secondary school years
www.steinerschoolbrussel.be/

PS all the above alternative schools are within the Belgian local system, but because they offer something a bit different and get more autonomy, they do not get fully funded and to cover teachers' salaries, you have to pay top-up fees. Anything between 1000 euro per year and 5000 euro per year, well based on the amounts parents have given me whose children are at these schools.

Scary
our car costs £155 (?186) a year to tax in the UK, in Belgium it is ?282,85, not too much of a difference. It's the insurance for us which is significantly more, about double.

Car tax in excess of £2k for our cars so huge difference, and these are 12 year old cars. Insurance not too bad as cars too old for an omnium anyhow.

There is going to be a big decision to make that it's for sure.
I have an other question even though it doesn't apply to me. What happened if a child has learning disability. They can just go on repeating classes. Some kids might never be able to reach the goals that are expected of them. This is just a curiosity now.
Thanks

Children with learning difficulties have their own schools. Integration in the French mainstream system is starting, albeit slowly. There is a school near us which is next to a mainstream school and this year some children from the special school are being integrated into the mainstream school with teaching assistants in the class. There are 8 types of special school in the French system, the details are on the French Community website.
www.enseignement.be/index.php?page=25191&navi=404

My friend's dd is quite badly dyslexic. She is in a school geared towards children with similar special needs. This is the school. I would imagine there are other similar schools. Also at dd's school, there is a language specialist who lives right by the school who is allowed to come and collect pupils at lunchtime for sessions. She is however a private specialist and therefore is paid accordingly.

There tends to be less integration into main stream schools of those with special needs. A friend of mine's son suffered from a severe head trauma (car accident) when he was 9 months old which resulted in brain damage. He went to the British School with a teaching assistant with him at all times. At one stage, his Belgian father wanted to move him to the Belgian system but the boy's doctors advised against it, saying he would be put in a special school and that would not be the best path for him. He speaks fluent French and English (though with some vocal issues) and managed to get a couple of GSCEs (in non numerical subjects) which my friend was delighted about.

There are plenty of children who come out of school at the age of 18 with no qualifications whatsoever. School is compulsory until the age of 18 but if you've ever repeated a year then you would reach 18 before you took your end of schools exams. If would of course be advisable to stay on and finish but not everyone does. What tends to happen though if a child is struggling in a school is that they leave to find an easier one.

My dd has done 4 years in a French speaking state Maternelle and has just started Primary at 6.5. She loves it. Mind you, I think the rules and structure suit her personality. She is even excited about getting homework! (Long may that continue.....)

She doesn't seem to have any problems coping at the moment, but we are only 2 weeks in. She's sharp as a tack though, so as long as she retains her enthusiasm, hopefully she won't cause us any sleepness nights...well at least as far as her education goes anyhow My worry is mainly about keeping up with it all - my French is OK, but I'm not fluent by any means...

Oh and inside mainstream schools, you also have speech therapists, occupational therapists etc who are usually paid for in the main through the health insurance system. Our youngest daughter sees as speech therapist once a week, most costs paid for by the health insurance, we had to get a "prescription" for this treatment from an Ear Nose and Throat consultant and this prescription is given to the health insurance company who approve the payment of the course of speech therapy. Every school has an Educational Pshychologist who is there to co-ordinate and diagnose conditions in children, and recommend any remedial treatment such as speech therapy. My friend's eldest has just gone through a session of extra lessons for dyscalcula?

Our school also has a teacher called "prof polyvalent" who takes children out in small groups to help them with various tasks, whenever the school thinks they need extra help with anything. In the first year we we here, our elder kids had individual intensive French lessons 3 times a week in school time from this teacher and also from the school's Nederlands teacher (specialises in French immersion, Nederlands and speaks pretty good English), I paid for another 2 hours out of my own pocket after school so they got an hour a day of individual French.

PS Italianmom, car tax here is done on engine size, you don't see so many large and powerful car driven by those with families as they are so expensive to tax and insure, certainly alot less big cars for family size than I was used to seeing in the UK. Here is a list of the annual tax costs...
www.mon-assurance-auto.be/taxe-circulation-auto-belgique.html

Ooh yes, I'd forgotten that there is a prof polyvalent at dd's school too though dd has only mentioned her a couple of times and the boys never mentioned her at all so I'm not sure how often she is around.

The language specialist by dd's school is also a speech therapist (not entirely sure how to translate logopède). You get money from the mutuelle (health insurance) if you get a prescription from the doctor but this is only partially reimbursed.

italianmom, I would also say it depends on what system you are used to. A friend moved here from the States and her ds had been in a Montessori school. He spent a day in a Belgian school and was desperate not to go there. The difference between the two systems was just too great. If your dcs are used a more disciplined approach or you think that like Portofino's dd this sort of system would suit them then this might be the system for your family.

The problem is that any school system would be a lot more stricter that the US system. My daughter goes to a very good school here, so I don't think she would be behind but the schools here are definally not rigid. Actually sometimes I wish they would be just a bit more strict. They have rules about what to wear and stuff like cellphones should be off etc...but they don't reinforce it.
The integration of disabled children in mainstream schools also is not happening much here either. I was surprised about that. That is definally one thing in which the Italian system is better. There is pretty much 100% integration now. It started back when I was in school. Even thogh some parents believe that having special schools is better because the teachers are better trained.
The Montessori school was another one I was looking at. I am just a bit confused about all these "alternative schools". Do you get any form of tax deduction if you choose one of this schools? If we decied to move we will be paying taxes to the Belgian goverment just like everybody else. We will be hired with a regular Belgian contract.

No, unfortunately there are no tax reductions if you choose to pay school fees. As you would be hired with a Belgian contract, please read my post of Fri 03-Sep-10 09:15:48 re taxes and social security payments.

Thanks, we know about taxes and social security and all that "fun" stuff.
I have a couple more questions and than I promise I will stop bugging you. You have both been really super nice answering all my questions.

Is maternelle always full-time? Can you choose to only send your child half day? When you say that there is no creativity in school do you mean that the teachers actually expect a 6 years old to sit on a chiar a listen to a boring lesson for 6 hours? Do you know what kind of schedule do they have in their 1st or 2nd year?

Children are obliged to attend school from the September of the year they turn 6, they only need to attend 8 days in a school year to keep their place and part from that, they can come and go as they please. However, you will often find hostility from teachers who have part time children in their maternelle class. One of my closest friends is a maternelle teacher, she started out 10 years ago quite open to children attending part time, she is now quite anti part time ; it disrupts the class as a whole as she has to spend more time settling in the part time children, it disrupts her schedule of activities as she has to fit in the fact that the part time children don't finish an activity with the other children and she has to repeat just for them, it disrupts the child as they realise they are different to the others, the part time child cannot do all the activities a full time child does and misses out on the gorup experiences, I could go on with the reasoning against part time attendance. Well I'm a bit more cool with the idea than my friend, our elder children only ever attended maternelle in the UK a maximum of 2 days a week before starting primary at age 4, but it's 9 out of 10 part timers who are the international children and it's these children who could benefit the most from full time attendance in order to master the language and integrate into the community. Well I have to believe my friend is right, that part time attendance in maternelle in the Belgian system is far from ideal, this year she has a class of just under 20 at the moment and all are full time, no tears in the mornings and the children are very settled and used to the routines already after only 2 weeks, unlike last year with a couple of part timers in the class.

Our children in primaire have NEVER sat on a chair for 6 hours a day. There's 2 hours of PE per week, 2 hours per week going to the pool and back, a 2 yearly residential trip, once a term sports days, days out at various museums about once a term, 5e/6e do a show every 2 years which they practise all year for. For the ordinary timetable, I could take a look on the wall of a classroom tomorrow if you want to know the exact normal timetable on days when the children are at their desks.

It's true that schools at primaire level are not so creative than they are in the UK, whereas the maternelle I find MORE creative than the first 2 years of what is primary in the UK, but the creativity in a typical Belgian child's life comes in the activities that they get up to outside of school. It's really not comparable. I am currently battling with one of my children who wants to do 2 hours of swimming per week, 1 hour of pony riding, 2 hours of dancing, 2 hours of gymnastics, a whole day every 2 weeks of Scouts, I think she wants to do too much and having so much choice of mega cheap activities is part of the problem. In the UK the same child would be doing half the amount outside of school.

Full time maternelle is standard, but they don't do lessons all day. In my experience it is fun! So many hours a day are taken with eating and sleeping. They do crafts, trips, play games etc.

My 6 year old does a couple of sessions of gym, one of swimming each week ( I tried to teach her, but one lot of lessons in 3eme Maternelle totally sorted that one...). They do "ateliers" where they do 4 week sessions of things like art, computers, sewing where children from 3 Maternelle and 1st/2nd Primaire are grouped together and swap round. They go to the Library. Today they went to look at a pond and all the wildlife and drew pictures of what they saw.

Dd has been on loads of trips, studied insects, been to the local supermarket, visited a farm/bakers/butchers etc etc. They never sit on a chair for 6 hours a day at that age. Dd's knowledge of the world is MUCH much greater than mine at a similar age.

I agree with Natation that school might lack in certain areas, but there is the time and opportunity to sign the kids up for things that really interest them. Mostly cheap, always tax deductible

It seems to me like maternelle is actually a lot of fun. What I don't understand is once they start primary so age 6 how is their day structured? Do they have art or swimming or any other fun class every day? How do they teach math or french or social studies? I can only compare to what I am used here in the States. When they are very young all the teaching is done with lots of posters, coloring, and singing and of course reapiting. They don't just read from a book. They are allowed to stand if they don't want to be sitting. They seat on a rug when the teacher reads stories and they are allowed to be wiggly if they don't bug anybody else.
It would be really intersting to see their schedule, but only if you can.
How long do you think you spend doing homework every day? You seems to have a lot of time for activities? So it can't be that bad. Secondary school is probably when it gets worst.
Again thank you so much. You are really very nice and lots of help.

Dd's day at the moment is something like this:

Session 1; Reading - they use work sheets, cards where they match pictures to the words, hand gestures that link to letter sounds

Break

Session 2: Gymanastics or swimming

Lunch

Session 3: Maths - again work sheets, colouring in, counting.

Session 4: Eveil - studying a theme, like medieval life, or nature, or where bread comes from

Other days there is Library, or computers, or crafts. Once a week they have Religious Studies where the class is split - eg Catholic, Islam - or "Morals", if you want to opt out.

There is no reading corner in the classroom this year, I noticed - there always was in Maternelle. They sit 2 to a desk, facing the blackboard. I don't think wiggling about is acceptable.

At 6 though, most of them will have done 3 years of Maternelle. They are used to being in the classroom And the "structure" gradually builds up over time, so 1st yr Maternelle - mostly playing and colouring, by 3rd Maternelle, they will have more "lessons" - counting, learning letters, how to write their name etc.

When they start Primaire, they are actually ready for formal learning. I actually prefer this system to the UK one where they are thrown in to school at 4 and have to get used to the environment, school dinners etc AND start reading/writing all at once.

Homework is maybe 20 minutes. A sheet of letters to copy, some reading words.

Dd's school day starts at 8.25. Lunch is 12.00 - 13.25. Day ends at 15:20, apart from Wednesday where there is no school in the afternoon, and Friday where class finishes at 14:20. As I work, Dd stays at the garderie til I collect her. This year they have homework club for 45 mins, then go to play.

If you email me on [email protected], I can send you a link to dd's school website. There are loads of photos showing what the classrooms are like, and the activities they do at all levels and if your french is up to it, a description of the philosophy of the school etc.

I think because my DSs have gone all the way through the system (now 21 and 19 and of course have Belgian friends of the same age who seem to like to hang out at our house!) I tend to focus on secondary where there is a minimal amount of creativity (typically 1 hour of art a week in the first or second year and 1 hour of music and/or technology in the first or second year and then nothing from 3rd year onwards) unless you go to a technical (less academic) or professional (to learn a trade) school. There are a huge amount of activities on offer out of school but in my experience of my dcs and those of their friends (who are at a variety of different schools), they don't have a lot of time to do that many the further they go through secondary because of the workload. The daughter of a friend came with us to the UK this year on holiday and she was in a real state about going back. I also talked to the 14 year old daughter of another friend who is pretty clever and has always been consciencious but is now saying she hates school. I know these are only a couple of examples but I don't know any of my dcs friends or their siblings or any other friends' children who love or even particulary like school (I'm talking all secondary school children here) which I think is a shame.

Maternelle is very creative as they don't have official structured lessons. My dcs only went every morning in the first year simply because at their school the children have a nap in the afternoon. My dcs all gave up their afternoon nap by the time they were two so I didn't want them to start this again only to be awake until 10pm! As soon as it was full-time "school", they went all day as, as natation says, they needed it more than the others to build up their French.

My dd in primary doesn't sit in front of a desk for 6 hours a day either. As I said, until last year she had music once a week. She gets an hour of gym and and hour of swimming a week. They also have an hour of computing once every other week. There is usually an excursion once a term. They also have Dutch and religion/ethics but these are done in their classroom. They have a break in the morning too of course. However, when they are in class and Madame is talking, they have to sit and listen and they would not be allowed to stand or wander around or anything similar. However, my dd is in her final year of primary now so I can't really remember what was allowed in her early years. They definitely had a reading corner in the 1st year and they did bring things home they'd made for Mother's Day, Father's Day, Easter and Christmas. In fact they still do this now.

The timing of dd's day is similar to Portofino's dd though they start earlier and finish later but have a slightly longer lunch (very long lunchtime due to the lack of space in the canteen so they have to do shifts).

I agree with Portofino that they are definitely ready to start to learn to read and write by the time they get into primary and they seem to learn pretty quickly. On the other hand, I'm not so sure that they are all ready for the big difference between the rather laid-back maternelle and structured primary. The transition can however be made less stressful by having a good teacher and fortunately all three of my dcs had lovely 1st/2nd year teachers (2 year cycle).

The teaching in dd's school is nearly all done with black and white photocopied sheets. They have a book they sometimes use for Dutch and one they sometimes use for maths, though this tends to be for homework.

Homework really depends. My dd has a history test today based on a printed text which was five sides of A4. She's been reading it every day since the weekend (she finds it difficult to retain this sort of information just by reading it so has to look over it quite a few times) whereas another child may read it only once or twice (in addition to the time they read it in class) and be able to retain it. Sometimes a homework sheet might only take 20 minutes, other times an hour. Unfortunately I've thrown her agenda out from last year otherwise I could have told you what her timetable was and what her homework schedule was like. I'll have a look at this year's when she gets home from school at lunchtime (though the work schedule seems to be lighter than usual - because it's the beginning of the year I guess).

My nephew lives in the UK and is in the same school year as my dd so it makes it easy to compare the two systems. He is doing MORE activities than my dd not LESS - piano, guitar (plays in all sorts of school shows), swimming 6 times a week and climbing. This is possible because until now (he has now gone into secondary - they go up a year earlier in the UK) he has had very little homework compared to her. Whilst she was studying for her exams last year, I remember chatting to my dn on msn about all he was doing in his free time!

This is an interesting article which I have just been sent:

Flemish education minister completes memorandum on the reform of secondary education (De Morgen ; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 02:00:00 GMT ; p.14)

Flemish minister for Education, Pascal Smet (SP.A), has completed an initial memorandum on the reform of secondary education. The memo is intended to serve as a basis for talks with education networks and teachers in the field. Smet wants to remove the distinction between general secondary education (ASO), technical secondary education (TSO) and professional secondary education (BSO) to be phased out. Every child that has finished primary school will have to take the same 13 subjects, including ?technology? and ?classical cultures? during the first year of secondary education. Three hours will be devoted to classes on an individual basis (the so-call differentiation package), a time that can also be used by weaker pupils for remedial education, while others can study classical culture or even Arabic. In the second year economics and classical cultures are omitted from the compulsory package, and pupils can select two out of six ?areas of interest? such as ?language and literature? or ?health and social sciences?. A year later the basic subjects shrinks even further, with pupils choosing from subjects such as ?wood?, ?construction?, ?electricity, electronics and mechanics? and ?sport and physical education? through to ?fauna, flora and the environment? or ?classical languages?. The fields are not divided up into standard options: if a pupil selects ?construction? he can also follow a subject in the field of ?media?. By the third cycle (the final two years of secondary education), studies prepare the pupils for higher education or the labour market, or they keep both options open. Smet believes that his model anticipates society?s requirements. The minister?s primary aim is to rid education of the demotivating so-called waterfall system in which a pupil will, after numerous attempts to succeed in a more difficult field, take up an easier and more practically oriented field. He intends to make the students more aware and better informed when it comes to selecting a field. The differentiation package is intended to ensure that there is no reduction of classes to the lowest common denominator and that the more advanced pupils are able to take on more, while the weaker ones are still supported. Smet hopes to have his decree finalised by the end of 2013, and initial reactions to the memorandum are optimistic but cautious. The socialist trade union ACOD applauded the postponement of the student's choice what to study, while both the (state) community education (GO) and Catholic education networks are pleased with the general outline, although the former has voiced curiosity about the practical implementation for staff and schools.

If I had my time again I would put my dcs into the Flemish rather than the French system (for a variety of reasons I shan't go into here!!).

Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is all I can say.
LongtimeinBrussels I totally understand why you do not like the way secondary school is structured now. It looks like the flemish government is going the right direction so hopefully the French system will follow soon.
Good luck to all of you.

Hi italianmom, you're welcome. I can't give you dd's timetable as until 1 October they only have a temporary one so it isn't written in her agenda yet. Once she has it, I'll try to remember to find you! Good luck with your decision.