Settling down in Belgium - anyone done it?

[bigtalksmalltalk]

Hello

We are currently expats in Belgium and will probably move in the next 6 months for another overseas assignment. My husband and I are starting to think longer term and neither of us want to live back in the UK (recent trip there it felt much more materialistic, family unfriendly than Belgium). We would need to plan to come back to Belgium and "go local" and I wonder if people could tell me their experiences of schools (our 2 children are too young for schools) and general living. We live in a bit of an english expat bubble where we are and I would want to get away from this area. Even though we have been here 2 yrs I am ashamed to say I know little of the nuts and bolts of living here, tax, how to buy a property etc etc.

A big concern for me here over going back to the UK would be integrating and really feeling at home as opposed to being always with people moving on.

many thanks

I forgot to ask one more thing. Is there any difference between the schools in Wallonia and the schools in the Flanders? My kids would have to learn a new language anyway so do you recommend a area over the other? We need to be aroud Brussels any way so we can do either one.
Thank you very much

Scaryteacher,
the way around the rules for studying for free in Scotland and Ireland too, is to take a job in Belgium, you could do this even if it is only a few hours a week. It will not matter that your son boards in the UK for 6th form, if you are resident here and paying tax, NI etc, your son should count as being resident in Belgium and only in England for study, returning to the family residence in Belgium during the holidays. Well that is how I read the rules on the SAAS website, haven't looked to much into the rules for Ireland yet.

Italianmom,

I can't really comment on secondaire level here, child not there long enough, but so far so good, no-one has asked him if he is not Belgian, no-one has mocked him for his French, he is happy with his choice of school.

Homework in primaire was overwhelming at first for our then 10 year old coping in a new language, the younger one coped better as there was less homework. It depends very much on the school, from what I hear from other parents.

Doubling is common at all levels, maternelle, primaire, secondaire, not so much stigma as so many do it, schools appear to like to keep the class at same level, so it also means you can move up a year.
In the UK they would never do this, sometimes to the detriment of very bright or not bright.

Exams in primaire are obligatory in the French system in 2nd, 4th, 6th primary, the other years it is common in some schools to exams too, very school dependent. Same exams in every French school in 2nd, 4th, 6th and 6th exam called CERTIFICAT d ETUDES de BASE CEB and you need this CEB to go to mainstream secondaire, otherwise you have to find a French school which has a class for those who have not passed or taken this exam, and in a few secondaire schools there are special French immersion classes available theoretically only for certain nationalities, Italian not being one of these nationalities.

Schools in Wallonia are all French, in Flanders are all Dutch, except for 30 towns where a minority language has the right to an education in that language, eg German in Eupen, French in Kraainem.

Schools in Brussels are French or Dutch, but 80% of the Brussels population is French speaking, Dutch schools full of French speakers doing Dutch immersion and not recommended if your child speaks neither Dutch nor French. Many children in Flanders areas near Brussels sned their children to French schools in Brussels, as the French population is priced out of Brussels, they are moving further east, north and south into Flanders but wish their children to be educated still in French so they have to travel further to French schools in Brussels.

I'd say, if you choose to live in Flanders (unless in one Kraainem or Wezembeek-Oppem area), choose Dutch, if you choose to live in Wallonia, choose French, if Brussels again choose French.

Thank you again for all your responses. It would be interesting to hear more about secondary schools maybe at the end of this year. The think that I like are all the different choices. The kids should be able to find something that they like. But if they get overwhelmed with homework it's not fun anymore.
I forgot to say that I live in the USA so this move would really be very hard on my kids I'm afraid it might not be worth it.

Italianmom, how are are your children?
Transfer to secondary is usually in the September of a child's 12th year, so our son born in 1998 went to secondary on 1st September aged 12 years and 2 months. But with many many chldren doubling in maternelle and primaire, they could make it to secondary as late as 14 years old (you can double a maximum of 2 years in mainstream French education before being sent to a special school).

If you have a child aged 12, you would have the choice of either them effectively doubling the last year of primary by being over-age or the choice of finding a secondary with a "différenciée" class for those without the CEB or a "passerelle" class for those without French - but US and Italian nationals do not theoretically qualify for these classes, they are for refugees, asylum seekers, 3rd world nationals, perhaps some schools would bend the rules there.

I can't vouch for any info on Dutch schools sorry.

Most schools have homework clubs, they are intended for children with 2 working parents who come home late, to give their child an hour or so still at school to concentrate on homework with teacher supervision, rather than at home with no supervision. There are also homework clubs held in community / youth centres, some are aimed specifically at those who are not coping too well at school, our town runs one and gives one-to-one help and our son was offered a place there, in the end he was fine at home with me helping him with homework.

But homework would not be the major issue with non French or Dutch speaking children, mastering the language would be the most important thing to deal with. With older children it is possible, needs alot of commitment.

My kids are still pretty young so I am not so concerned about learning the language. The little one is 4 and the older is 7. But I am really worried now about this doubling sistuation. What do you mean "many many children are doubling in maternelle and primaire". That is not something I like. Every once in a while I am sure it would be necessary but there is something wrong whith the teachers if so many kids are failing. In Italy the doubling only happens in secondary school and usually to kids that just don't care. How do they decide when a child should be held back?
One more question about homework. Do they get homework on weekends and holidays too?
Are you happy in Belgium?
Sorry but I am very concerned now.

Natation - we are about to get Dip status, so that's a non-starter, and even I work, I have to earn under the tax limit so we don't lose tax free privileges.

Perhaps using an interim agency? And working very little? It is worth a thought.

I didn't know it at the time, but I started through an interim, the minute I did that, it entitled me to child benefit here, also entitled me to pay national insurance here!

Hubby is treated the same as a dip / functionnaire under tax rules here, we have 2 separate tax forms, his is left empty with an accompanying letter, mine is filled in, tax "benefits" of reductions for children, for their childcare and sporting activities, it all gets put on my tax form as I am counted as the main (only) Belgian earner. Perhaps it's worth enquiring with the CLO what happens to dip dependants if they work?

Italianmom
I can only talk about doubling from my experience. I know of one boy doubling 2e maternelle at age 4, it was an agreement between his parents and the teachers, his birthday is a few days before the end of December, he was very immature for his age AND the youngest in the class. I know another girl who arrived with no French and also born at the end of December, her parents wanted her to start 1st primaire instead of 2nd primaire, as this year is the most important in primaire where children go from no French writing and reading to reasonably fluent, plus she had no French, it was in her interests to effectively double, absolutely the right decision, she became fluent faster than average for an anglophone, she could possibly now jump a year. Then there are children who have doubled a year because they have not met the objectives of that year.

In the Belgian system, the standard is kept quite level in the class, whereas in the UK children are very very rarely put down or up a year (as a child put up a year, it certainly didn't help me). It means a few double, a few are put up a year, does tend to be those very young or old, but not always, it is not a relfection of the standards of teaching, certainly a reflection of the education system.

If your children have no learning difficulties and are reasonably bright, I wouldn't worry in the slightest at maternelle or primaire level.

Now I've only been here 2 years and our school is not necessarily a reflection of all Belgian schools, but out of our children's classes in primaire, 5-10% of the classes have contained children who have doubled, so it is common but still a minority, common enough that not so much stigma attached, in the UK a child held back for "failing" if you want to call it that would suffer terrible stigma.

The child mentioned above in maternelle kept down a year is the only child I know of in the school who has doubled at maternelle level, so at maternelle, it is in fact alot less common, at least on the experience I have in our school.

Perhaps longtimeinbrussels or belgo may know how common it is in their children's school, to get a wider idea of this doubling system.

Homework at weekends? Yes my children get it but it is never too much, usually something to study such as a work list or some reading, rather than work to complete, that's primaire level I am quoting on. ?Holidays? Very very rarely, never in long Summer holidays.

Italianmum, doubling in maternelle happens occasionally in the third year when they think the child isn't ready for primary. My ds1 was born on the cusp of the year and I was called into the school after he'd taken some tests to say that his level in the tests was average but there was sign of immaturity so I had to decide whether or not to put him up! I couldn't see why not as in the UK they start to read and write from 4/5 so of course he was ready for primary (or so I thought). However, the system is immediately two to a desk facing the teacher and the pace is pretty fast so he would have been better waiting a year.

Doubling in primary - yes that happens as there are a couple of children in my dd's class who are a year older. Quite a few have left the school because they can't handle the level and I have no idea if they doubled in another school or if they just moved schools so difficult to estimate figures.

Doubling in secondary is very common place. One year ds1 had a class list and unusually the children's dates of birth were on it. They should have all been born in 1989. Half of the class were born in 1988. Then at the end of the year, out of a class of 24, 12 failed some exams so had to take resits at the end of the summer (if you fail resits you have to double). I have no idea how many failed outright or how many failed to pass the resits.

I talked about universities further up the thread.

My dd gets homework at the weekend. She spends hours doing her homework at the weekend actually as she does the whole week's worth to leave her time in the week to do the things she needs to learn for her tests plus she has some activities (piano, singing, swimming)which limits her time in the week. She's in 6th primaire. Her school obviously gives more homework than natation's dcs' 'school because she has never, since she started in primary, had as little as natation's dcs seem to have. She has no work to do during the summer holidays (but I make sure she reads and does some writing so she doesn't lose her French) but there is always homework during the other holidays because they give them the homework for the week they go back. Dd tends to leave it until the Sunday but then does it all as she does any other week.

Further up you asked about abusive behaviour and I said I hadn't seen any. There's another thread going at the moment about this in French schools and it reminded me that in fact I had seen one incident which I reported but I'm pretty sure nothing was done about it.

This was an interesting article here. It pretty much sums up the Belgian system for me :(

Oh and you asked how they decide who should be kept back. In dd's school, the tests they have every week are marked and the points from them go into a report. These marks are added to the points they get in the Christmas and summer exams. If they get less than 60% they fail the year and have to repeat.

Natation - I get UK Child Benefit for the HRP and this will continue as we are HM Forces despite the rule changes in the UK. As this will then give me a full UK state pension (presuming there is such an animal when I hit pension age) I don't want to change this.

We are complicated in that we are combination of RN with dip status, and I think they have problems working out what to do with us. Twas much easier when dh worked at the other place off Schuman.

Scaryteacher, do check the changes to HRP from April 10th, appears you only get it if your child is under 12 years old now, no longer 16 years old. I am lucky as I work for HMG during the holidays and have paid enough UK NI in the years I have been in Belgium so far, have paid 16 years so far in NI, a few more years to go still for full UK state pension.

PS you don't have to claim Belgian child benefit if it is not in your interests, the only link to working here is that it entitles you to claim it. We had a choice of either UK or Belgian, my husband qualifies us for UK child benefit, my earnings in 2 countries qualifies me to claim in either. The difference for us was about 500 euro a month so we chose the Belgian amount.

Special dispensation for HM Forces trailing spouses with regards to the HRP. Have already filled in the form, and had been hassling the powers that be to see if there was mitigation on place for Service families overseas. Have 25/30 years already, so will have 28/30 when dh leaves current appointment and the RN.

What do you do for HMG?

I thank you all again for all your responses. That article about French schools is actually a little sacry. I sure hope it's not like that everywhere in France.
I have to say I was hoping that Belgium had more of a northen European system.

italianmom, I'm afraid to say that it doesn't :(

scary, whether you are able to get free tuition fees or not, the main expense is the living costs which you will have to pay if your dc goes to either Scotland or anywhere else in the UK. I would think, because of your status, your ds would be entitled to both a loan for the fees and a loan for the living costs (our dcs weren't entitled to the latter so we have had to support them). However, you might not want him to come out of uni with such a huge debt. Belgium therefore becomes a more attractive option. However, the problem with him studying here is there is only a very limited amount of undergraduate courses in English (Flemish universities can only offer a course in English if they offer the same course in Dutch so you can understand that they won't be offering too many).

Our ds2 has gone for the worst financial option. His French is good enough to study here and apparently he could have got free tuition if he'd accepted his offer from Heriot-Watt but no, he's in England! He does love it there which was always a worry so I guess it's worth it.

Italianmom,
you will find people who have experienced what is written in that article in France and Belgium, but read down to the comments, there are many who have recounted more positive experiences of French schooling. I've never personally experienced any maltreatment in our children's school. I visit 2 maternelles every morning, take my friend's child to his then I go to our own children's. In both schools the parents are welcomed and can stay to settle their children, the teachers chat with the parents, the parents chat with the other parents. In primaire, things get more serious, but still in our school the parents can speak easily with the teachers.

There are many things in that newspaper article which are written badly, such as the claim that schools in France have no clubs or sports, that is simply not true, it would be true of the school that the author sent her child to, but not of other schools. For example, in our school, and in nearly every other school in our area, the children do sport. In our school, maternelle does 3 sessions of PE per week, primaire does 2 sessions per week. In addition, all the school has 3 days each year where the children spend and entire day at the sports centre, trying out a variety of sports. There is an annual athletics / swimming competition for all schools in the commune. The primaire section swims once a week, 2e and 3e maternelle (3-6) swim once every 2 weeks. There is a choice 7 lunch time clubs in maternelle sport, music, art, cooking, woodwork etc and 16 lunch time clubs for primaire, these cost 60 to 100 euro per year.
Primaire classes go on residential trips once every 2 year, to the seaside, farm or skiing. 2e and 3e maternelle go to the farm once every 2 years. Primaire and maternelle have other regular trips out, such as to the theatre, circus, archeology centre, bee-keeping centre, Bokrijk open air museum, local park - that was last year's trips, even the youngest class go out and about.

If all that is not enough, there is an abundance of sporting / art / music / dance clubs outside school, they are in the main very cheap and sometimes free. The cheapest sport our children do is swimming - pay 225 euro for the year for up to 16 hours a week swim training, most expensive is tennis at 500 euro per year or 15 euro per session (could even go elsewhere for half that price but doesn't fit in with swimming).

So not everything is negative about schools, you have to be comfortable with the system though, formality, expectation to learn and study at home.

Scary
HMG, just a Summer job I am on career break from, love it actually, I earn up to just over the personal tax limit, gives me enough NI to cover a year, earnings form the UK goes on my Belgian tax return but because of the number of children, don't pay much Belgian tax.

Asked a diplomat's spouse what happens to the diplomat and spouse if the spouse chooses to work. The answer is, she is pretty certain about, no effect on diplomatic status, spouse fills in Belgian tax return jsut like I do as only earner in the household, you get a personal limit like in the UK where you pay no tax, you get a limit for your child, you offset certain things like child care / sports camps (under 12s only), then you pay tax on the rest. Pay NI on everything. There are online tax calculators where you can work out your personal limit before starting to pay tax. You have to declare UK bank accounts, any UK income, that cannot be taxed but is taken into consideration when deciding where you start paying Belgian tax eg I earn 6k euro from UK per annum, 15k euro from Belgium, minus childcare came to 2k per annum, 15+6-2 = 19, my personal limit is about 18k due to number of kids, I pay tax on 1k per annum. Well that's not the real figures but that is how it is worked out.

Well if you ever wanted to consider it, if you signed up as an interim, perhaps you could teach the odd few days a year at the many international schools, loads to choose from apart from BSB - St Paul's, BISB, BJAB,BICS, BEPS 2, Montessori 8, ISB, St John's, that's quite alot there.

Sorry a bit of a hard sell there, for us the residency is important, with many children to support through uni, the idea of free Scottish / Irish fees or cheap Belgian fees could mean a saving of 50k + for us.

Right out I go to Brico to buy some boxes for our kids' school, god the French community system sucks financially that the school cannot even afford a few plastic boxes, so I'm off there to buy them for the teacher.

natation, I read down to the comments and there are a lot that seem to agree with the article. Whilst I agree you with that it depends on the school, the teacher and especially the child, generally what is being said about the system being much less forgiving that the UK system is true. After 19 years in the education system and many friends with their dcs going through the same (different schools, different academic abilities), we all tend to agree that the system does not encourage enough and is too rigid. I'm not saying that I agree with a system that bends over backwards to make life easier for the child. A child needs to learn the realities of life but I feel that this is done too early in the Belgian system and too severely. I feel they are shoehorned into academia too quickly.

I couldn't see where it said about not having any sports. It is true that there are plenty of clubs in Belgium. This is a country where both parents work usually and the system has been set up to accommodate that. There are plenty of out of school clubs too. There are some expensive ones but plenty of very reasonable ones. Also, my dcs primary school had music lessons (until 4th year primary) and they did organise a show at the end of the year for those who attended lunch-time chorale. However, there is little creativity in the school, little "downtime" during school hours. Add this to the homework,leçons and exams and school work does take up a lot of time for our dcs.

On a positive note (feel I'm being a little too negative here!), my dcs have had some lovely teachers in primary. 3 out of the 6 years for ds1, 5 out of the 6 years for ds2 and 4 out of the 6 years for dd.

This school has a different approach which may be of interest to you.

Natation - we may not get the dip status as the Belgian protocol people are being funny about it. Dh has moved from one bit of Brussels to the other, and the Belgians say that he has to be out of Belgium for one year before they will let him have dip status. AArgh. I think it is all a ruse to get us to pay stonking amounts of car tax for another year. It must be normal for people to go from one international organisation to another and then to a 'home' delegation without having to leave the bloody country?

We are resigned to paying for ds at uni, and we will be paying full whack I suspect. Thank God for lump sums at career ends.

I did hear about ecole decroly, I don't know how easy it would be to get in. We are going to have to make a decision pretty soon.
LongtimeinBrussels can I ask you what your kids are doing now. They are all out of secondary school right? It looks like you have one at the Uni in England what about the others?
Thank you Natation it's nice to hear positives experiences. Are you in Belgium for good then?