The Situation for Trans Men in Japan

[Shizuku]

No trans person should have to have surgery in order to be legally recognised.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-56670164

@Scepticaltank

It's clear ASugarr has learned to recite a lot of things from leaflets. Its like life is a strange crossword puzzle they know the answers too.

Yes I don't know if I have the energy for another thread like the "pregnant people" one that hit 1k comments earlier today. But I'll hang around for the fun of it.

🦡🌈🤍

@Scepticaltank

It's clear ASugarr has learned to recite a lot of things from leaflets. Its like life is a strange crossword puzzle they know the answers too.

I've found it an effective demonstration of rote learning not equalling knowledge.

It would be nice if we could have a block poster option like twitter, so that we can choose to opt out of being forced to read the continuous sales patter of certain posters, intent on filling up threads with crap.

The long waiting lists are entirely due to the explosion in numbers of people "identifying".

"Healthcare" can't get better if people don't want to work in the field. Its clear recruitment into this specialisation is an issue in the UK, people cant be forced to work in it. In the US where you can get patients to sign away any liability surgeons are going to meet the demand. The NHS doesn't have that discretion and so when ASugarr blandly says healthcare provision is bad, this glib emotional blackmail fails to recognise that people have a choice over the work they do, and they don't want to do this.

@Scepticaltank

The long waiting lists are entirely due to the explosion in numbers of people "identifying".

"Healthcare" can't get better if people don't want to work in the field. Its clear recruitment into this specialisation is an issue in the UK, people cant be forced to work in it. In the US where you can get patients to sign away any liability surgeons are going to meet the demand. The NHS doesn't have that discretion and so when ASugarr blandly says healthcare provision is bad, this glib emotional blackmail fails to recognise that people have a choice over the work they do, and they don't want to do this.

Wonderful post.

These threads are always an education, and not in the way certain posters fondly assume 😉
Nothing like asking someone to explain their position to expose the gaping holes in their argument. They're like Swiss cheese.

Its quite fascinating the way ASugarr writes. As a 25 year old you can recite the rules and you can genuinely believe, probably because its your first adult lightbulbs going on, that you are explaining something to people who couldn't possibly have understood without the rare knowledge you have been given.

You aren't though ASugarr, you are reciting the things people want you to say to remarket some well understood behaviours.

You are a pawn in the game.

@Scepticaltank

Its quite fascinating the way ASugarr writes. As a 25 year old you can recite the rules and you can genuinely believe, probably because its your first adult lightbulbs going on, that you are explaining something to people who couldn't possibly have understood without the rare knowledge you have been given.

You aren't though ASugarr, you are reciting the things people want you to say to remarket some well understood behaviours.

You are a pawn in the game.

I don't understand why you are all obsessed with talking about me 🤣

OP I'd be interested in your thoughts on my post.

Well you insisted on insinuating yourself into the conversation, Alan (can I call you Alan?). You're getting the 5 minutes of fame you clearly yearned for. Not necessarily for the best of reasons, mind.

A lot of trans people don't have full surgery because of continence issues. I think this is fair tbh.

The surgery is massive, invasive, and comes with a host of risks that are not trivial.

No one should be encouraged/ coerced/ forced to have it. Ever.

The idea that a trans person post surgery is more acceptable as the sex they are wanting to be is very harmful and that idea comes from a variety of directions.

As someone whose had a lot of surgery in the past I find the way it's often seen as really upsetting tbh.

Pain, surgical wounds, infection, scarring, loss of function, nerve damage, issues meaning further surgery, and so on. And this surgery is on a part of your body that is a major centre of nerves, major blood vessels, interacting with a whole network of other organs, muscles etc.

It really should only be undertaken when no other options are viable.

I know that won't make some people happen but it really is major risky surgery.

Obsessed?

This is a fairy unique chat board in that there's no way to block or sub thread.

So we are all in one conversation. If we were in a room we would just nod in agreement with each other and all eyes would be on the one person who has come especially to saying something different to the existing common understanding.

That's you. You've come here to do this. If you were in a room doing this would you say everyone turning to face you and ask you questions were "obsessed"?

Or would you realise that your statements were not going down as easily as you thought and perhaps reflect on that?

When you are behind a screen saying the audience you have sought out is "obsessed" is probably easier than if you were in the room, but we are not behaving any differently.

If this was a zoom would you just shout "obsessed" at us?

I speak in group meetings and I have to deal with lots of questions, I laugh at the idea of resorting to saying "your obsessed with me" to them if I ran out of answers.

Happy not happen

@GreyhoundG1rl

Well you insisted on insinuating yourself into the conversation, Alan (can I call you Alan?). You're getting the 5 minutes of fame you clearly yearned for. Not necessarily for the best of reasons, mind.

Alan 😂
Hahahaha! Alan Sugar!

😂😂😂

On the topic of 'living as a man' or 'living as a woman', I put a version of the following question on another thread:

Imagine a doctor named Leslie Jones. Leslie specialises in oncology, and therefore Leslie's usual title is 'Dr'. 'Leslie: is a unisex name. 'Dr' is a unisex title. Is Leslie a man or a woman? How does Leslie 'live as a man' or 'live as a woman'?

Is it only pronouns? Is literally the only thing that makes Leslie a man or a woman is whether other people use 'he' or 'she' in Leslie's absence?

Now, imagine that Leslie is a very good doctor and is invited to practise medicine in a different country. This is a country where third-person pronouns are not based on either sex or gender.

How does Leslie 'live as a man' or 'live as a woman' during that time?

The vast majority will say if you are that committed/ your body dysmorphia is so so unbearable that you change your body and have surgery you are indeed trans.
Next level committed to changing physical appearance and taking hormones?
Not taking hormones but wishes to dress as the opposite sex.
Has an internal belief of a different gender but outwards appears as their natal sex.
Feels like they are the opposite sex/gender on Mondays but not Fridays. Pippa bunce

This list from WhyAmI is one of those things that is obvious and I already know, but which made me think.

So if it’s not acceptable to demand surgery to legally change sex (which I agree is right) then we are left with the other options and the difficult to impossible question of where the line should be drawn legally.

But then, unless we exclude all medical treatment (on the grounds we might effectively be pushing people into something physically harmful) then we still have a situation where people might choose a medical pathway they wouldn’t have taken if they weren’t set on achieving the “goal” of being recognized as the opposite sex.

So there is the current UK option that no treatment is required, but doctors have to confirm a condition exists that they believe will allow the patient to benefit from the privilege of being recognized as the opposite sex. But we are told this is intrusive and unacceptable.

Or the alternative of a free for all, where anyone can choose, based literally on nothing but desire, which might be for genuine reasons, but equally might be entirely nefarious.

So what it comes down to is we either have a free for all, or a situation where the “goal” might cause people to go along pathways they wouldn’t otherwise travel.

And as the free for all is so obviously open to abuse, it seems to me that the only logical conclusion is to remove the goal.

Nobody can change sex and that fact should be reflected in the law. Any law that allows the legal fiction will create a coercive situation or a dangerous situation. So the law that allows people to change legal sex is unworkable and should be removed.

Agree.

This thread has been moved - that's interesting.

@OhHolyJesus

This thread has been moved - that's interesting.

What’s this topic got to do with lgbt parents??

Beats me...

I think only an OP is able to request that threads get moved.

Perhaps @MNHQ can confirm if that is the case?

Hi there,
Re the move, the article was reported as more relevant to the LGBT section, where it would more easily come to the attention of parents using our site who are trans.