WWYD?

[RIPDotCotton]

Hi. I have posted on here multiple times before and received great support. Right now, I’m feeling up against it and wanted more advice. DD feels she is male.
Firstly, DD is 18, 19 in 3 months- so, legally an adult. Often on here the advice is to tell them to wait until they are 18 to make changes but realistically they don’t suddenly become a true, independent adult once that birthday rolls around. She is still using female pronouns btw hence me using them.
And this isn’t sudden- she’s been dressing completely male for almost 2 years, along with short hair/hats for the same amount of time. Probably over the past 9 months she stopped shaving everywhere so lots of armpit/leg/facial hair- again as a woman she has a right to do what she likes as far as body hair is concerned.
So far- no changes that cannot be reversed so we have just rolled with it all. Kept her busy- school, sports, a job. We live is a liberal community that has supported these changes- she has lots of (straight) friends which is important because at least, as far as I can see, she isn’t being influenced in real life by other trans teens. However, our little community is a kind of bubble compared to other areas of the country (US) so her reality in other areas could be a completely different experience.
And now she has approached me (not my husband who she feels less safe with as far as his reaction) and wants to go to university as a male. It was a stressful conversation for her and she wasn’t clear about what that means but we skirted around the subject of her name (and I assume pronouns) and she mentioned hating her breasts for years (she has been secretly binding for a while despite me being against it) So heavily hinting that she wants top surgery. She did say she wouldn’t do anything without our support - realistically she can’t as even with insurance the bills would be a lot of money in co-pays.
In this conversation I said I would insist in therapy moving forward - so she has gone ahead and found one specializing in LBGTQ+ - honestly I’m assuming she will just try to find the first one who will affirm her feelings (which could be valid- I’m not denying that) rather than doing lots of work and delving deep into why she feels like this and where the dysphoria comes from:(
And all this before I’ve even involved my husband, who I think will struggle with this and I’ll be in the middle.
Shes legally an adult - although I firmly believe we don’t really become one until our brains fully form in our early 20s! FFS she wants to have a double mastectomy and she can’t even legally drink!!
What would you do/say?? I’m thinking somehow support a new name (heartbreaking) and even pronouns but an absolute no to financially supporting anything permanent?! Will I be damaging my future relationship with her? Will she never trust me again or open up to me?
This is all new and scary and I’m a mess. I couldn’t care less about how she presents herself, would welcome whoever she chooses to love (she is finally saying she is gay but she isn’t open to any family at all and hasn’t openly dated or been proud to be gay which saddens me so much)
This has been 2 years in the making. I’m aware she is an adult (although dependent financially on us for a while yet) so this isn’t a younger teen anymore.
What would you do? Above all I want to maintain a good relationship with her, even of right now I completely oppose any permanent changes for her:(

It's trauma that damages your brain. Unaddressed dysphoria causes trauma. Physical and/or social transition isn't the only way to address said trauma but for many people, it is.

Again, what part would you like evidence of: that trauma causes brain damage or that dysphoria is traumatic?

You need to demonstrate a direct link to convince medical science that transition might be the right treatment for anyone (and even then it might not be).
You have only proposed demonstrating an indirect link.
I assume you're talking about things like neglected children and PTSD?

Not if this child is trans and attracted to women. Men who are attracted to women only are heterosexual.

This is a girl. So she would only be heterosexual if she fancied boys.

Indeed. Sex and gender (identity) are not the same thing.

I'm guessing this part of the thread isn't particularly easy for the OP.

Being a parent of someone who is unsure about what gender means to them is not an easy thing. IMO it's a step too far to then force ("I won't entertain any other idea") the reframing of the OP's daughter's sexual orientation in to the conversation.

I’m saying she’s gay as she’s attracted to women- I haven’t said that to her in so many words, just that she should have fun and date whoever she is attracted to!
All she has said is she likes girls. And for some gay women that is hard to come to terms with- combine this with the contagion that is teenage girls claiming to be a trans men and it’s a recipe for affirmation from the internet, doctors and some counselors! I’m not apologizing for wanting her to explore why she feels the way she feels and take it slowly when it comes to irreversible medicalization!

Yep, I'm with you completely on all the above. I hope it came across that way.

I was calling out some other posts that conflated gender identity and sexual orientation.

Nobody (of any age) should be forced in to considering their sexual orientation through the lens of gender identity. If a girl/woman is attracted solely to other girls/women, she's a lesbian. Or if she's exploring everything, it's in this context. It's all perfectly healthy and normal and should come with no pressure in any way. But nor should there be any pressure to conflate it with a gender identity, where the stereotype that "girls fancy boys" could be an indicator that a girl who fancies girls might not be a girl at all.

I saw a YouTube video from Jammiedodger, where Jamie's wife was saying that she is "heterosexual, because to be anything else would invalidate Jamie's identity as a man". If Jamie and Shaaba want to reposition their relationship as heterosexual, under their belief in gender identity, that's their own business. However, what they've done, to their fan base of impressionable young people, is demonstrate "transing away the gay". Jamie even has a bit of a visceral reaction to the idea that Jamie used to be a lesbian (doing a strange shudder), before quickly adding "of course, there's nothing wrong with being lesbian".

It's a demonstration of homophobia and transing away the gay, which is effectively a form of conversion therapy.

Well thought I’d update.
Still in limbo. She went off to uni successfully and is having a great time. Living with 3 flat mates (all female as she has to share a room with one) and going out and enjoying life.
She found herself an in person therapist in the city she’s in and my assumption is that it’s just to tick a few boxes and be affirmed in her beliefs. Every time she has a session I’m now getting videos of various speakers talking about how their child is far happier in their new gender. And that’s she’s the happiest she’s been looking and dressing as she does now - aside from the dysphoria.
I replied with the affirmation that I love her and am proud of her and the person she is. But I did also ask her to consider some questions in therapy- that I hoped that she was truly exploring all aspects. I asked if she’s so happy, why does that mean can’t be female and be herself? Has she explored her sexuality and how she feels about that- and yes I know sexuality is different from gender but she is attracted to women and yet hasn’t ‘come out’ to any family or lived as a proud lesbian (which we would love to support her with!) and lastly, what happens if the medical solutions (ie permanent ones!) don’t get rid of the dysphoria? What happens then?
I’m hoping as smart young adult she will at least be prepared to discuss things- although I’m not starting the conversation, just responding to the tidbits I’m getting from her. I’m just trying to slow it all down- how successful I’ll be who knows:/
What I don’t know right now is if she’s using different pronouns or a different name. Officially she’s still using her female name but I suspect that with her new friends she may be exploring something else.
Thanks for reading this far and the support I’ve had so far- it’s scary how many of us are dealing with this during the teenage years. As I said before though, after 18 all bets are off and they can technically do what they like.
I suppose also- I’m afraid that by not immediately jumping in and affirming her, taking her straight to a doctor for medicalization, I may be permanently damaging our relationship further down the line:(

You probably are. But don't worry, the good folks of Mumsnet GC mafia will be there for you when your kid finally cuts ties for good.

Your kid is telling you what they are. Listen to them. Believe them. Or you're going to lose your child, one way or the other.

I'd rather have a son, than lose someone I thought was my daughter forever.

I am listening to her. But my love for her as a parent means that I’m going to push back at the suggestion of an immediate double mastectomy! Asking her to go for therapy is a ‘fail safe’ because the idea of her doing all of this to her body because of dysphoria without exploring it some is just crazy.
For generations young adults have been pushing back at gender norms and fashion and expressing themselves in ways that the older generations just don’t get. Except now- there is an army of internet experts who assure these young adults that a double mastectomy and possible sterilization through hormones is the answer to their dysphoria! If she still feels this way after therapy - and living as a male (ie pronouns and name change which she hasn’t done so far) then I will support her I will never reject her.
I read an analogy recently that if she had anorexia - would it be socially acceptable to support her dieting to alleviate the dysphoria?? No- yet gender dysphoria apparently can be ‘cured’ with life changing treatments.
The other issue is that she has chosen a therapist who isn’t neutral- as an adult she can make that choice but we both know that she has done it so she gets more affirmation and doesn’t actually deal with the dysphoria.
Thank you for the reply- I’m well aware of the potential to destroy my relationship with my child and I do listen to both sides of the debate.

You’ve had some good advice here but was just wondering you mention she had facial hair? Does she have PCOS or been checked for it ?

I think she has PCOS because her legs are also super hairy. She has had intermittent periods for years. She won’t go to a Gynecologist (I assume because it’s all things woman?) and obviously the hairiness (minus hormones - at least I think no hormones) suits her.
I wonder how this may affect her general mental health/wellbeing…

@RIPDotCotton that’s why I was asking. It can have a big impact on mood, but I think it’s worth considering what else it might be doing to her. It’s possible that if she has PCOS this could be behind a lot of this. It’s not no hormones it’s an excess of male hormones. If you’re a teen and suddenly you’re very hairy and don’t look like the other girls, it’s not a far stretch to start thinking you might be better off trying to make yourself look more male. Is she overweight? acne? PCOS needs diagnosis, it can cause a lot of health problems further down the line as well.

She’s not overweight at all (the opposite) and no acne either?

Gosh, there is so much to disentangle for you & I really feel for you & you sound like an amazing mum. First, I think you're right to refuse to support surgery & anything else irreversible. I think your daughter needs to explore her sexuality first & get more comfortable with that. Others have suggested some great tv/books about lesbians.The thing that really strikes me is her unwillingness to talk to her Dad - given she says she is male, this is odd isn't it? You say she is petite - I think there are all sorts of safeguarding risks for her. Sounds like there is a long way to go before she is mature enough to transition. Even if the detransition figure of 8% is right that relates to people who have gone through some sort of medical transition doesnt it? The figure will be much, much higher when looking at people who have thought about it in some form (ie your daughter's case). Detransition is incredibly painful.

Therapists aren't meant to be neutral. They're meant to be supportive to their client. They read the actual research and apply it on their practice.

If I loved my kid, the last place I'd be seeking advice is from the GC crew here. Let the professionals lead your child's care. They know what they're doing. You don't need your child to have breasts to love them. There are lots of ways to have kids.

hopefully op your dd will become more comfortable with her sexuality if she’s living with girls and one is lesbian. This might then lead her to question her current thought process more carefully.

ds is in halls with a biological female who is trans. It’s heartbreaking. She has a made up anime name and looks like a 14 year old boy. She is 18 but has had a double mastectomy. She is attracted to biological males.

The university have placed her on the female floor and there are no other trans people in the hall (there are LGB people) Ds says that she is clearly struggling with her mental health but as the weeks have gone on she is barely talking about the trans thing at all whereas initially it was her main topic of conversation.

@Appleontherocks The actual research does not suggest that medical and surgical transition improves mental health. Tens of thousands of members of detrans Reddit suggest the opposite in fact.

This is my fear. As far as I know, her three roommates are all straight but interestingly she has for the most part always surrounded herself with straight female friends.
She has told me she’s had some experience sexually but on a casual basis (having some ‘fun’) and no real relationship at all- and no public relationship either.
One thing I think has shaped/confused her somewhat is a toxic friendship when she was 16 with a slightly older girl who was a little obsessed with her. We found out after the fact that this person was the one who encouraged her to ‘chop off her breasts’ to make herself feel better - this was during Covid and she was already suffering socially and mentally.
One question I asked her was what happened if she does something permanent and the feelings don’t go away? No reply to that question (because she is hundreds of miles away at college this is all via text!)
As far as the pp who said that therapists don’t have to be neutral and work for the client- I agree. But I would hope any self respecting therapist would delve pretty deep into the dysphoria, respect her young age (ie it’s agreed in the scientific community that young adults under the age of 24/25 have not yet got a fully formed adult brain) and realize the totality of surgery/hormones.
And yes I do know that there are many ways to have children but realistically, here in the US, those paths cost tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and aren’t accessible to the average wage earner. The average egg retrieval for example would be $10-15k and each cycle of IVF costs around the same- even with decent health insurance.