WWYD?

[RIPDotCotton]

Hi. I have posted on here multiple times before and received great support. Right now, I’m feeling up against it and wanted more advice. DD feels she is male.
Firstly, DD is 18, 19 in 3 months- so, legally an adult. Often on here the advice is to tell them to wait until they are 18 to make changes but realistically they don’t suddenly become a true, independent adult once that birthday rolls around. She is still using female pronouns btw hence me using them.
And this isn’t sudden- she’s been dressing completely male for almost 2 years, along with short hair/hats for the same amount of time. Probably over the past 9 months she stopped shaving everywhere so lots of armpit/leg/facial hair- again as a woman she has a right to do what she likes as far as body hair is concerned.
So far- no changes that cannot be reversed so we have just rolled with it all. Kept her busy- school, sports, a job. We live is a liberal community that has supported these changes- she has lots of (straight) friends which is important because at least, as far as I can see, she isn’t being influenced in real life by other trans teens. However, our little community is a kind of bubble compared to other areas of the country (US) so her reality in other areas could be a completely different experience.
And now she has approached me (not my husband who she feels less safe with as far as his reaction) and wants to go to university as a male. It was a stressful conversation for her and she wasn’t clear about what that means but we skirted around the subject of her name (and I assume pronouns) and she mentioned hating her breasts for years (she has been secretly binding for a while despite me being against it) So heavily hinting that she wants top surgery. She did say she wouldn’t do anything without our support - realistically she can’t as even with insurance the bills would be a lot of money in co-pays.
In this conversation I said I would insist in therapy moving forward - so she has gone ahead and found one specializing in LBGTQ+ - honestly I’m assuming she will just try to find the first one who will affirm her feelings (which could be valid- I’m not denying that) rather than doing lots of work and delving deep into why she feels like this and where the dysphoria comes from:(
And all this before I’ve even involved my husband, who I think will struggle with this and I’ll be in the middle.
Shes legally an adult - although I firmly believe we don’t really become one until our brains fully form in our early 20s! FFS she wants to have a double mastectomy and she can’t even legally drink!!
What would you do/say?? I’m thinking somehow support a new name (heartbreaking) and even pronouns but an absolute no to financially supporting anything permanent?! Will I be damaging my future relationship with her? Will she never trust me again or open up to me?
This is all new and scary and I’m a mess. I couldn’t care less about how she presents herself, would welcome whoever she chooses to love (she is finally saying she is gay but she isn’t open to any family at all and hasn’t openly dated or been proud to be gay which saddens me so much)
This has been 2 years in the making. I’m aware she is an adult (although dependent financially on us for a while yet) so this isn’t a younger teen anymore.
What would you do? Above all I want to maintain a good relationship with her, even of right now I completely oppose any permanent changes for her:(

I would tell her very clearly that I would have no part in paying for surgery that irreversibly disfigures and mutilates her body. Most trans young people realise that they are not trans at all as they get older, and it was indeed very much a phase.

I get that. But how long do these ‘phases’ last? This has been 2 and a half years of presenting as male.
And I’m totally terrified of messing up what relationship I have with her. Parenting is supposed to be unconditional yet this issue forces me/us into either supporting or being unsupportive (at least at this point and on the issue of permanent changes)
In my heart I cannot support her yet - maybe when she has reached her early twenties and feels the same then it’s definitely not a phase I would assume?

I have no answers to your dilemma but just to say be careful... You'll get a lot of very ideological responses from some people on here so take advice with a pinch of salt.

How about counselling for you so you have someone to help you through a really complex set of questions? For what it's worth, it sounds to me like you're a great mum doing everything right!

That sounds hard. Do you think she would be open to discussion as to why she thinks men can't/ shouldn't have breasts? If she's off to uni she might come across people who find that opinion transphobic - the "woke" (hate that term, sorry) view is that either sex body can be any gender, so acting as if man=male-bodied might come across as old-fashioned.

Thank you. I’ve generally found this board helpful and I do accept that different views may occur. I guess deep down my gut is stopping me embracing anything permanent that she may live to regret as she moves into her 20s. Maybe I’ll be called transphobic? I’m sure her therapist will just jump on the bandwagon and completely affirm her - sadly I cannot be involved in those sort of medical provider decisions she is making because she is an adult:(

Would it help to discuss/ think through what the practicalities are of starting university as male? Eg. If you’re in the US will there be shared rooms? I assume there are allocated based on sex. Would she expect to be put with the men?

Regardless of how she presents to the world you of course want her to be safe.

Exactly this. She has been assigned a roommate as well as 2 suite mates - all female! They have been messaging and organized their whole suite (who’s bringing what) so I cannot see how that would work?
I know they assign rooms based on how they identify I think? I’m a little suspicious as her roommate has a gender neutral name and she did imply that she’s gay so maybe the roommate is non-binary/gender questioning? It wouldn’t surprise me.
She’s pressing for me to talk to DH before she goes so I’m assuming she’s thought about this?? I’ve no idea:(

She hasn't even made a full social transition and she doesn't have the maturity to speak to her father about this. No way would I be paying for surgery or supporting this in any way. You're lucky in that respect that anything medical will need your support/ contribution/ insurance until she's fully independent. The the uk she could put herself forward for it.

Most trans young people realise that they are not trans at all as they get older, and it was indeed very much a phase.

This kind of dangerous – and entirely untrue – nonsense is why asking these questions on this particular forum isn't a good idea, OP.

For the record, while it's basically impossible to find an entirely unbiased source of detransition / transition regret statistics, even the highest estimate is only 8% so far, far from "most". (Statistics are higher for pre-pubescent gender non-conforming (not trans) children – many of whom do go on to formally identify as their biological sex once they hit puberty – but this is clearly not the situation your child is in, OP, so it's not really relevant.)

I would recommend finding yourself a therapist to talk this over with. There are also boards dedicated to parents of transgender children who will have a better understanding of your position (and a range of views which you may find more useful than the very politicised but often inexperienced opinions you'll encounter here). It's an incredibly complicated and emotive situation for any parent and I send you all the best in dealing with it.

DD feels she is male.
she is finally saying she is gay

Is she saying she's a gay male, attracted to men?
Or a gay female, attracted to women?

Good point.
She said 2 years ago she was bi.
Now she has said she is attracted to only women- I’ve used the word gay but she hasn’t.

Have you read Time to Think by Hannah Barnes?
It's based on interviews and information from the UK children's gender clinic (the only national clinic) but it does a really good job of looking at the whole subject from a balanced perspective. She includes testimonies from people who are happy with their transition as well as those that aren't. Even though it's based on an under-18s clinic, it's also very relevant for older teens and early 20s adults.

It covers so many different aspects about the care model as well as gender dysphoria itself. The "affirmative" model in the US is very similar to the UK model as it's all based on the same original Dutch protocol, albeit (in both cases) a version where people with co-morbiditities such as autism and complex trauma are supported in transition. In the original Dutch protocol they were excluded.

Also another helpful book I found was this one (photo below).

I'm not a therapist but it gave me ideas on how I could talk to my daughter about her feelings of gender dysphoria and really useful background on gender dysphoria in general. It's written by 2 specialist clinicians in this field. They wrote it in layman's English so that it can be understood by anyone, not just psychiatry or therapy professionals.

(Unless you're a psychiatrist I'd ignore the intro though. I got very lost in all the jargon! It's written by someone else).

OP we're dealing with this. My position is that I won't support medicalisation for my child who is an adult and about to support university. If he goes down that route he needs to take complete responsibility for the decision himself. He's been having counselling from a gender exploratory therapist (who previously worked for GIDS like Marcus and Susan Evans) and has chronic mental health problems which the therapist believes need to be addressed first before he makes any decisions about permanently changing his body.

I've found the following resources useful: the Gender Exploratory Therapy Association, the Gender: A wider lens podcast with Sasha Ayad and Stella O'Malley and the Gender Dysphoria Support Network.

I have heard parents say that the birth name is on their child's university documentation so that's the person who is going to uni - refusing to support a new gender identity while they've footing the bill. Are you paying for it?

Most trans young people realise that they are not trans at all as they get older, and it was indeed very much a phase.
Contrary to what Peachgreen has said upthread....... I think the bit Ive put in bold is very much true. And sadly many young women dont realise until its too late and they've permanently disfigured themselves with a double mastectomy. Or less horrific but just as permanant.......... 3 months "on T" (ie Testosterone) means a permanantly deep voice.

Ooops that bit didnt bold! This bit.......... should have been in bold
Most trans young people realise that they are not trans at all as they get older, and it was indeed very much a phase.

You may “think” that, but it is demonstrably not true, as proven by dozens and dozens and dozens of global studies. As I said, even the most conservative estimates put genuine transition regret stats are no more than 8%. That is not “most”.

Unfortunately there is no data on today's cohort of gender dysphoric adolescents and adults. This is because gender clinics aren't obliged to follow up on after care. Some do, up to a year but many don't but anecdotally (from detransitioners), regret is after 8 years or more. Prior to that there is a euphoria period and then doubt. Obviously that doesn't apply to everyone but the sad fact is that we simply don't know.

This is an interesting article about aspects of it:
Link to article

Excellent podcast series
spotify.link/PkEJ8fafuCb

Yes we are paying for it- and as is typical in the US, it’s a lot of money!
in all honesty, I’m not sure we could afford the 1000s of dollars co-pay (like an excess)

I wonder whether a part of the puzzle here would be encouraging more acceptance of her sexuality.

Has she got books with gay female leads? Have you ever watch programs together with lesbian relationships and characters? How about lesbian comics talking about coming out stories?

Would you consider taking her to pride? Or to lesbian meet-up groups in your area? Does she have lesbian friends?

It might not be the whole solution, but if she hasn’t dated much, a girlfriend might help her come to some sort of acceptance of her body.

Thanks for all the replies so far.
Ultimately, I am aware she is an adult and could, in theory, go ahead and start taking hormones and living as a man. The part that concerns me is that she is petite and in no way would ever pass as an adult male - more likely she presents/will present as a teenage boy. I would also worry that she may put herself in worrying or dangerous situations because she is small and looks young- if she presented as female I think she would look/pass for her age or older.
Saying no to financing surgery is only part of the problem. Her moving to a less tolerant part of the country worries me immensely:(
Lastly I’m dreading having a conversation with my husband. The marriage is in trouble and I was considering filing for divorce in the next year. Now I feel I can’t because I can’t deal with both things at the same time whilst working full time and having another child at home.
Therapy for myself is a must I think- I can’t do this by myself. Interestingly she texted me a couple of days ago reminding me she wanted me to approach her Dad about all this. And told me she’d had the first session with the therapist she picked already! Then mentioned ‘you know we’ll have to do family therapy sessions on Zoom when I’m at college’ So now I’m thinking this so called therapy is just her finding someone to sign off on her having surgery and a way to railroad the parents along with it all:((
Maybe I’m just overthinking but with current trends within the medical profession to just affirm straight away I don’t hold much faith that this therapy she’s started is anything other than a rubber stamp for her feelings:(
Thanks again for all the support.

I agree- when we were texting the other night (her preferred method it seems) I did mention that she hadn’t really embraced openly her sexuality and dated (like her friends) although I do know she’s ‘fooled around’ with a few girls. But not openly- I told her we’d love for her to bring dates home and celebrate who she dates.
I guess though, gender and sexuality are different things and I’m guessing that she considers herself a male who is attracted to women. Maybe that’s because she can’t accept being gay? Or more specifically being a butch lesbian- not sure if that’s the correct term?

You sound like a lovely mum 😊

I completely get that sexuality and gender are very different, but there is a strong overlap and a lot of adult lesbian women would talk about going through a ‘tomboy’ phase even if they present in a more feminine way as adults. So there is definitely something to be said for resolving any internalised upset/shame etc about her sexuality if you can.

A couple of things which you could watch together which have quite masculine presenting lesbian female leads are Gentlemen Jack (on the bbc) and below her mouth (maybe watch this yourself first if you haven’t seen it - it’s quite sex heavy). Sarah Walters writes books with similar protagonists.

I do think that delaying is a good tactic here to give her more time. Would it be feasible to say that you wouldn’t be able to afford anything medical until your youngest has finished university?

If your husband is likely to react badly I do think that you telling him - ideally outside the house - is wise. The more that she has to fight on this, the harder it would be for her to backtrack.

OP who is paying for the therapy she's planning? If it's you then don't pay if they're affirming. Could you arrange family therapy with an exploratory therapist - you might find one through GETA.

Even 8% regret rate (which is a complete underestimate in my opinion) is too high @peachgreen what if my child is one of that 8% and adds to his chronic mental health problems with a permanently disfigured body? His body is perfect - the problem is his self-loathing which he won't solve by altering his body any more than self harmers and anorexics solve their problems with cutting and starving themselves.